Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5879

http://www.righttorepair.org/main/
Today’s modern vehicles are very complex machines. Computers and electronics control nearly every vehicle function from safety and emissions to ignition keys. Although these computers provide many benefits to motorists through improved fuel efficiency, comfort and safety, they also provide increasing opportunities for car companies to lock out access by car owners and the independent repair shops where they choose to obtain service for their vehicles.

The need for Right to Repair legislation has become a necessity in order to protect the rights of car owners to decide where and how they have their vehicles serviced, whether at a new car dealer or an independent service facility. Right to Repair ensures that the person who bought the car and not the car company, can decide where that vehicle is repaired and maintained.
Now finally something I have some credibility to comment about. I work at a car dealership in NJ and was talking to a salesman today as well as the owner of the dealership and a manager. Now the car dealership I work at employs roughly 40 people. We're pretty small but we do well.

Anyway about the bill. It would make car companies give up and put things into a database like key codes (what you need to program a new key), engine codes (those little cryptic numbers you get after you scan a car using a check engine light), radio codes (what you need to be able to use the car radio after it has been removed) as well schematics to the design of cars so that little "mom and pop" shops can repair you vehicle.

This is a bad thing for several reasons. Car dealerships employ huge amount of people directly and through proxy. Now a car dealership makes on average from what the owner told me "roughly $600 profit on every car sold" that is without marking it up to a point that is unreasonable. So the dealership depends hugely on the service department to keep alive. If you have no reason to go to  car dealership because you can get the info anywhere the dealership was lose money till the point where it will no longer exist and many people will lose their jobs. Domino effect goes into play and everyone starts to lose money.

Why you'll never get another GM from this;

If dealership cannot stay open because the service department cannot produce to make up for the weakness of the sales department (and in this economy, I'm surprised cars salesmen everywhere haven't committed mass suicide.) you will never get another huge employer and car company like GM. The main company will lose a huge revenue stream from losing all thee dealerships.

Why this is bad for security, law, and human advancement;
Bad for security if car companies technology schematics and codes are flying all over the place left and right that anyone can get a hold on it and make improvements for their own benefit or find exploited able weaknesses.

Bad for law if things like key codes are all over the place that everyone can manage to cut themselves a key in 20 minutes as long as they have the key code, and the proper scan tool. Your car radios will also again be at risk of getting stolen.

Bad for human advancement because car companies produce a lot of new tech if they're revenue streams is slimmed down hugely they won't be able to pour cash into R&D and if everyone was going to get their hands on the new tech because the government forces them to hand it over into a database they'll have no reason to research anything.

You will never get another American car company that could compete on a world stage or produce as much technology as GM did when it was in it's best days, if this bill goes across the country.

Sorry for the wall of text. :P

Last edited by Macbeth (2009-06-30 18:50:58)

Reciprocity
Member
+721|6875|the dank(super) side of Oregon
lol.  wrong.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5879

Reciprocity wrote:

lol.  wrong.
Explain to me, where I am.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6961

New car sales has never been a dealerships profit center.  It's the used cars and service/repairs.  Even the largest new car dealershipss have huge service/repair/collision departments.  With this act, they'll just have to market themselves as being more knowledgeable about service/repair.  In any case, they are still making good money from in-warranty work.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6794|so randum
if your showroom is making $600 per car you're doing something wrong.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5879

FatherTed wrote:

if your showroom is making $600 per car you're doing something wrong.
Do you want to buy a car that has a huge mark up? It's sold low so that they can service it and make their money. -_-
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6699|North Carolina

Macbeth wrote:

Why this is bad for security, law, and human advancement;
Bad for security if car companies technology schematics and codes are flying all over the place left and right that anyone can get a hold on it and make improvements for their own benefit or find exploited able weaknesses.

Bad for law if things like key codes are all over the place that everyone can manage to cut themselves a key in 20 minutes as long as they have the key code, and the proper scan tool. Your car radios will also again be at risk of getting stolen.

Bad for human advancement because car companies produce a lot of new tech if they're revenue streams is slimmed down hugely they won't be able to pour cash into R&D and if everyone was going to get their hands on the new tech because the government forces them to hand it over into a database they'll have no reason to research anything.

You will never get another American car company that could compete on a world stage or produce as much technology as GM did when it was in it's best days, if this bill goes across the country.

Sorry for the wall of text.
I understand where you're coming from, but the key argument is weak.

Currently, you can get normal car keys made at any hardware store.  Vehicle theft is a big problem for certain areas of this country, but it has no connection to the ease of copying keys.

As for keyless entry, you can already buy replacements online.  http://www.keylessride.com/

This, of course, leaves the door open for vehicle thefts, but so far, no evidence has arisen that would suggest that this has actually caused more thefts.

When it comes to the revenue argument, you're somewhat correct, but for different reasons.  For the most part, you can buy aftermarket parts to replace a lot of different technologies in recent cars.  Oftentimes, these parts are superior to the ones you'd get from a dealership.  Now, admittedly, finding someone outside of a dealership to actually install these things is often hard, but it is a growing market.

For the most part, I don't support the passage of this bill -- not because I'm against it, but because I think it's unnecessary.  It's clear that third party companies very quickly produce their own versions of most new devices in cars within about a year of when a major automaker makes something.

There's really no reason to believe that the market without this bill wouldn't have several outside vendors available to fix these specialized devices.  The only catch is that these vendors will typically only be in larger cities.

At the same time, however, there's no reason to believe that this bill would kill dealerships either.  A large portion of dealership customers go to these places knowing that they cost more than the average shop, but they prefer the comfort of having an official vendor serve them.  Others do it because their warranties require it.

So, with or without this bill, dealerships have plenty of other ways to lock people in (no pun intended).  At the same time, this bill isn't really necessary either.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5879

Turquoise wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Why this is bad for security, law, and human advancement;
Bad for security if car companies technology schematics and codes are flying all over the place left and right that anyone can get a hold on it and make improvements for their own benefit or find exploited able weaknesses.

Bad for law if things like key codes are all over the place that everyone can manage to cut themselves a key in 20 minutes as long as they have the key code, and the proper scan tool. Your car radios will also again be at risk of getting stolen.

Bad for human advancement because car companies produce a lot of new tech if they're revenue streams is slimmed down hugely they won't be able to pour cash into R&D and if everyone was going to get their hands on the new tech because the government forces them to hand it over into a database they'll have no reason to research anything.

You will never get another American car company that could compete on a world stage or produce as much technology as GM did when it was in it's best days, if this bill goes across the country.

Sorry for the wall of text.
I understand where you're coming from, but the key argument is weak.

Currently, you can get normal car keys made at any hardware store.  Vehicle theft is a big problem for certain areas of this country, but it has no connection to the ease of copying keys.

As for keyless entry, you can already buy replacements online.  http://www.keylessride.com/

This, of course, leaves the door open for vehicle thefts, but so far, no evidence has arisen that would suggest that this has actually caused more thefts.

When it comes to the revenue argument, you're somewhat correct, but for different reasons.  For the most part, you can buy aftermarket parts to replace a lot of different technologies in recent cars.  Oftentimes, these parts are superior to the ones you'd get from a dealership.  Now, admittedly, finding someone outside of a dealership to actually install these things is often hard, but it is a growing market.

For the most part, I don't support the passage of this bill -- not because I'm against it, but because I think it's unnecessary.  It's clear that third party companies very quickly produce their own versions of most new devices in cars within about a year of when a major automaker makes something.

There's really no reason to believe that the market without this bill wouldn't have several outside vendors available to fix these specialized devices.  The only catch is that these vendors will typically only be in larger cities.

At the same time, however, there's no reason to believe that this bill would kill dealerships either.  A large portion of dealership customers go to these places knowing that they cost more than the average shop, but they prefer the comfort of having an official vendor serve them.  Others do it because their warranties require it.

So, with or without this bill, dealerships have plenty of other ways to lock people in (no pun intended).  At the same time, this bill isn't really necessary either.
O that reinds of me of something funny. A person brought their car in once thinking it was cursed because it would start up by itself. She didn't know the used car she bought had a remote start in it.

Anyway back on topic. Uh right Turq.
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6812|Montucky
a good friend of mine is currently an ASE certified Master Mechanic as well as a graduate of a college that specialises in General Motors.  True there are a few things only the dealership can do that he can't, but that is because the cost of the equipment to preform the task is outrageous and the times it is used is very few and far between.  Also the DTC or Diagnostic Trouble codes are universal for the most part.  Also there are programs like Mitchell One that have everything you need to know on how to fix a vehicle, every make, model and year is included.  Yes even the 2010 Camaro, repair info and wiring diagrams are there.

Also you have to take into account that MOST new vehicles won't have a catastrophic failure untill after their warranty has expired. 


I have an 08 Chevy 3/4 ton for work and I own an '01 Chevy 3/4 ton for play.  Aside from a few new gizmos and sensors they are pretty much the same.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6739|The Land of Scott Walker
I have never stepped foot in a dealership for a repair and I've been a car owner for 14 years.  Seems the secrets to repair are already out.
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6812|Montucky
I refuse to even buy parts at the dealership where I live. They are a bunch of fucking tards.


How do you fuck up a parts request when the entire VIN is given and you've been working there for 9 years?
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5879

S3v3N wrote:

I refuse to even buy parts at the dealership where I live. They are a bunch of fucking tards.
Like Rain man retarded or Paris Hilton retarded?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6699|North Carolina

Macbeth wrote:

O that reinds of me of something funny. A person brought their car in once thinking it was cursed because it would start up by itself. She didn't know the used car she bought had a remote start in it.

Anyway back on topic. Uh right Turq.
I used to own a Jeep with remote start.  I usually kept the device in my pocket.

Well, one day, I was helping a friend move furniture, and while I was carrying stuff around, it would often press against my leg.  Well, later on that day, his roommate showed up and was asking us if someone had a brown Jeep, because "the alarm and the engine were going crazy."  lol
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6739|The Land of Scott Walker

S3v3N wrote:

I refuse to even buy parts at the dealership where I live. They are a bunch of fucking tards.


How do you fuck up a parts request when the entire VIN is given and you've been working there for 9 years?
And the same parts you can get at any reputable parts store strangely cost more at a dealership ...
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6812|Montucky

Stingray24 wrote:

S3v3N wrote:

I refuse to even buy parts at the dealership where I live. They are a bunch of fucking tards.


How do you fuck up a parts request when the entire VIN is given and you've been working there for 9 years?
And the same parts you can get at any reputable parts store strangely cost more at a dealership ...
depends on the part though.

Like a Front output Seal on a T-Case.  AC DELCO> NAPA

of course the delco part costs 30$ more
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6674|MN

Turquoise wrote:

[I understand where you're coming from, but the key argument is weak.

Currently, you can get normal car keys made at any hardware store.  Vehicle theft is a big problem for certain areas of this country, but it has no connection to the ease of copying keys.

As for keyless entry, you can already buy replacements online.  http://www.keylessride.com/

This, of course, leaves the door open for vehicle thefts, but so far, no evidence has arisen that would suggest that this has actually caused more thefts.

When it comes to the revenue argument, you're somewhat correct, but for different reasons.  For the most part, you can buy aftermarket parts to replace a lot of different technologies in recent cars.  Oftentimes, these parts are superior to the ones you'd get from a dealership.  Now, admittedly, finding someone outside of a dealership to actually install these things is often hard, but it is a growing market.

For the most part, I don't support the passage of this bill -- not because I'm against it, but because I think it's unnecessary.  It's clear that third party companies very quickly produce their own versions of most new devices in cars within about a year of when a major automaker makes something.

There's really no reason to believe that the market without this bill wouldn't have several outside vendors available to fix these specialized devices.  The only catch is that these vendors will typically only be in larger cities.

At the same time, however, there's no reason to believe that this bill would kill dealerships either.  A large portion of dealership customers go to these places knowing that they cost more than the average shop, but they prefer the comfort of having an official vendor serve them.  Others do it because their warranties require it.

So, with or without this bill, dealerships have plenty of other ways to lock people in (no pun intended).  At the same time, this bill isn't really necessary either.
Dang it.  2 1/2 times in 1 day, the world is coming to an end.

I completely agree with Turq here.  I disagree with the bill, and you would see little change in your business even if it did pass.

Last edited by LividBovine (2009-06-30 20:00:44)

"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7010
GM isn't going to make it... The Govt will even back out of it eventually... Then a new or more than 1 new car company will rise up from the ashes without any Unions... And that will usher in a new era of competitive, great American cars...
Love is the answer
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6674|MN

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

...new era of competitive, great American cars...


Oh, your were being serious there...sorry.

Actually, I hope you are right.  GM did not handle the whole union thing very well.  If they get a union again I hope it is like UPS's.  Everytime we deal with them I am impressed.  Except many years ago I had this one driver, his name was something like Mary or something that sounds like that.  He was a total prick.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6288|Truthistan
stealerships are bad enough... but the future might be a lot worse

1.  they could start to micro chip every part. If they use that tech then every part will imprint with the car making the use of used parts impossible.

2. and anther problem is that as cars become more computerized, the computer programs used in the cars are proprietary, meaning that the auto maker and the stealerships can really rob you if you can't access certain computer functions when making repairs. This problem is bound to get worse.

3. the third thing that's a real problem that cheap auto makers like KIA or Hyundai are really guilty of are the inflated price of parts. They sell you the car really cheap, but if you were to buy all the parts to put the car together yourself, the total cost of the part would be from 3 to 5 times more than buying the entire car. Price inflation of the parts is a real issue, the individual parts should to add up to more that the cost of the entire car.... the only way to protect yourself is to stick with really popular cars that have multi year runs in production so that there is a supply of good after market parts. the last thing you want to hear down at the old " Vatozone" is that a part is dealer only.



Best yet, what I do is wait to buy a car that is a few years old and let someone else work through the hassle dealing with the stealership and I let them take the big hit on depreciation, plus you get to find out if that model of car/truck is a lemon. For example I once thought that the Tundra trucks were cool and a few years later I found out that Toyota couldn't produce a reliable V8 and lots of people were having their engines replaced. So waiting saved me money.

Worst case scenario would be to go buy a highly fashionable car from a dealership at a premium price above MSRP because you just have to have it now and where the car turns out to be totally unreliable, the car's production ceases after only a few years, and all the parts are stealership only (ie Jaguar). IMO you would be better off wiping your ass with $100 bills.


I guess what I'm saying is that the right to repair act is a fine idea but it can't replace protecting yourself... If you absolutely must buy a new car, or worse yet one of those fashion cars like a new Jaguar..... then you really did it to yourself and no law is going to fix foolishness.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6875|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Macbeth wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

lol.  wrong.
Explain to me, where I am.
Everyone else answered for me. 


and dealership techs are retarded.  paris hilton retarded.
Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|7000
This is good news to me.  All of the computerization has made it impossible for you to repair the car yourself.  It pisses me off that the car companies make most of their money from their cars breaking down.  I with there was more motivation for them to build more reliable cars!
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7055

Deadmonkiefart wrote:

This is good news to me.  All of the computerization has made it impossible for you to repair the car yourself.  It pisses me off that the car companies make most of their money from their cars breaking down.  I with there was more motivation for them to build more reliable cars!
not true really.  we still (sadly) use internal combustion engines with the same basic principles as the day henry ford kicked out a few cars.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6885
1. Car companies ran profitably in the days of carburated engines, no ECU, and a service garage at every gas station.
(No need for vendor lock-in)

2. If you can't make a profit on manufacturing a $20,000 car somewhere in the design/build/sell/maintain cycle, perhaps your business model is flawed.

3. Modern cars are needlessly complex.  The major systems would be recognizable to a mechanic from 1939 (70 years ago).  Yes, fuel injection, ABS, turbos, and such all existed in 1939.  Get back to reliable, durable, just-what-it-needs-to-be.  Better fuel economy is good - bling-wheels, DVD players in the headrests, massaging seats, and black box computers that run everything from the radio to the engine.. not so good.  Improve the essentials (safety, fuel economy, durability, reliability) - forget the rest of the junk until the essentials are 100% covered.

4. The core technology essential to a car's basic function (get from point a to point b, safely) have evolved in the last 70 years, but they have not gone so far as to require special manufacturer-only mechanics.  Shit out a decent repair manual, or a Chiltons, and a competent independent mechanic would do just fine.

5. Stop building half-assed disposable vehicles with a planned expiration date of 5-8 years, start building reliable "it just works" vehicles again - and perhaps profitability will come back.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2009-06-30 23:03:03)

Reciprocity
Member
+721|6875|the dank(super) side of Oregon

usmarine wrote:

Deadmonkiefart wrote:

This is good news to me.  All of the computerization has made it impossible for you to repair the car yourself.  It pisses me off that the car companies make most of their money from their cars breaking down.  I with there was more motivation for them to build more reliable cars!
not true really.  we still (sadly) use internal combustion engines with the same basic principles as the day henry ford kicked out a few cars.
true, but henry ford wasn't dealing with piezelectric direct injection, catalytic converters and 7 speed automatic transmissions.  there are some subtle differences.
Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|7000

usmarine wrote:

Deadmonkiefart wrote:

This is good news to me.  All of the computerization has made it impossible for you to repair the car yourself.  It pisses me off that the car companies make most of their money from their cars breaking down.  I with there was more motivation for them to build more reliable cars!
not true really.  we still (sadly) use internal combustion engines with the same basic principles as the day henry ford kicked out a few cars.
You don't understand what I'm saying.  At least in the days of Henry Ford, you could fix your car without having to spend a month's salary to pay some drone to replace a computer chip!

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard