Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6915|London, England
The key thing here is what happens now. So I understand that this President wanted to stay in power for longer than the term limits and was about to try to change the constitution or some shit like that, but the Army/Military were like "Fuck you" and decided to storm the buildings.

To me, they probably did the right thing. This guy was trying to go down the path of dictatorship it seems. But I have a feeling all that's going to happen is that the Army will just put a General in charge of the country and everything will be "suspended" and, just the general shit that happens when a Military dictatorship gains control of a country. Same old shit, especially in South America
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6926|949

I don't get it - Reports of the Honduran Congress ousting the President, then reports the President resigned (and more reports that the President didn't resign), then reports that the Armed Forces were acting legally in arresting the President.  Out of those however, the only valid power grab would be if the Honduran Congress stripped him or if he did in fact resign (which he says he didn't).  The fact that the Armed Forces was acting on a court order does not give them the right to remove the President from office - unless the court order explicitly says so (which I could find no evidence of upon a quick perusal).  Arresting the President =/= ousting him from his position.

Obama issued his statement in line with the charter of the OAS - that all member states must condemn undemocratic power grabs - something the Bush Administration failed to recognize when welcoming the short-lived coup against Chavez in Venezuala.  I think the statement was released a little prematurely seeing as the actual events and timeline is still a little shaky in regards to what really happened.

From that faustas blog:
The Honduran Congress has officially ousted Zelaya “for repeated violations to the Constitution” and has now named the Congress President Roberto Micheletti as president of the country.
That was from approximately 5:20pm - around 8 hours after the coup had happened.  If he was removed from office by the Armed Forces before Congress officially ousted him, it was a coup (assuming that the Honduran Supreme Court does not have the authority to order the removal of the President, and that the President did not in fact resign).
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6895|132 and Bush

This is what I gather. Zelaya had a referendum that would have repealed term limits on the presidency.  The Honduras Supreme Court ruled the referendum illegal (unconstitutional), and the military refused to distribute the ballots.  Zelaya then fired the head of the military for refusing to hand out the ballots. By forcing the the illegal referendum ballots to be distributed despite the unconstitutional ruling was he acting illegally?

FEOS wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

When the military overthrows a President for "democracy" more often than not they appoint a General who was even worse than the last guy.
What about when they respond to a court order? What happens more often than not then?
The military has handed power back to the legislature rather than keeping it for themselves. That is very important.
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KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6926|949

Kmarion wrote:

This is what I gather. Zelaya had a referendum that would have repealed term limits on the presidency.  The Honduras Supreme Court ruled the referendum illegal (unconstitutional), and the military refused to distribute the ballots.  Zelaya then fired the head of the military for refusing to hand out the ballots. By forcing the the illegal referendum ballots to be distributed despite the unconstitutional ruling was he acting illegally?

FEOS wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

When the military overthrows a President for "democracy" more often than not they appoint a General who was even worse than the last guy.
What about when they respond to a court order? What happens more often than not then?
The military has handed power back to the legislature rather than keeping it for themselves. That is very important.
The court order was to arrest the president for breaking the law (by continuing with the referendum).  The court order wasn't to oust the president.  The fact that the Armed Forces ousted the president without Congressional approval was illegal (I think).  That the Armed Forces ousted the President to begin with (without congressional approval) is illegal and qualifies this as a coup.  Great that they transferred power back to the legislature, but it sounds like they acted beyond their authority in the first place - which is troubling.  Central American nations have a great history of international meddling and shady grabs for power - so something like this rightfully should be looked at with great interest.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6895|132 and Bush

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

This is what I gather. Zelaya had a referendum that would have repealed term limits on the presidency.  The Honduras Supreme Court ruled the referendum illegal (unconstitutional), and the military refused to distribute the ballots.  Zelaya then fired the head of the military for refusing to hand out the ballots. By forcing the the illegal referendum ballots to be distributed despite the unconstitutional ruling was he acting illegally?

FEOS wrote:

What about when they respond to a court order? What happens more often than not then?
The military has handed power back to the legislature rather than keeping it for themselves. That is very important.
The court order was to arrest the president for breaking the law (by continuing with the referendum).  The court order wasn't to oust the president.  The fact that the Armed Forces ousted the president without Congressional approval was illegal (I think).  That the Armed Forces ousted the President to begin with (without congressional approval) is illegal and qualifies this as a coup.  Great that they transferred power back to the legislature, but it sounds like they acted beyond their authority in the first place - which is troubling.  Central American nations have a great history of international meddling and shady grabs for power - so something like this rightfully should be looked at with great interest.
Wasn't he removed by congress?
But Congress said it voted unanimously to remove him from office for his "apparent misconduct" and for "repeated violations of the constitution and the law and disregard of orders and judgments of the institutions."
Ousted by their supreme court with the following reasoning..
The Supreme Court said Sunday that it had ordered the president's ouster in order to protect law and order in the nation of some seven million people...

.."Today's events originate from a court order by a competent judge," the country's highest court said in a statement read by spokesman Danilo Izaguirre.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-wo … -d1fb.html
The military did not make either decision (so it seems).

Dunno tbh. It looks like both sides were out of line. Starting with ignoring the ruling on the referendum in the first place.
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Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6940
Since when and how are coups illegal? Was the American revoultion illegal then? Does that make me an illegal? I should probably be deported.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6926|949

Here's how I understand it - the court order was for his arrest (not ouster).  I don't know the Honduran Constitution, but it seems like the Court would not have the authority to usurp the president without an explicit lawsuit stating such.  As far as I understand, the court is not able to decide to remove the president based off an assumption.  Now if there was a specific case about the legality of the presidency, yes, they could rule that he is not legally allowed to be president - but this seems like they are making a judgement call outside their legal authority.  He was removed after the fact by Congress - after the Armed Forces forced him into exile in Costa Rica.

Him (the Honduran President) breaking the law doesn't mean their Supreme Court (and Armed Forces) can break the law either.  It really doesn't matter who broke the law first - the Armed Forces and/or Supreme Court were out of line in relieving him of his duties as president.  They should have arrested him and let Congress strip him of his power.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not sticking up for the former President in any way - he violated a ruling by the Supreme Court.  However, that does not give the Supreme Court the right to remove him (as far as I understand it).  There are checks and balances for a reason, and it seems like in this case the burden was on the legislative branch to remove him, not the judicial branch.  That's why there is outrage, that's why initial reports correctly referred to it as a coup.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6895|132 and Bush

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Here's how I understand it - the court order was for his arrest (not ouster).  I don't know the Honduran Constitution, but it seems like the Court would not have the authority to usurp the president without an explicit lawsuit stating such.  As far as I understand, the court is not able to decide to remove the president based off an assumption.  Now if there was a specific case about the legality of the presidency, yes, they could rule that he is not legally allowed to be president - but this seems like they are making a judgement call outside their legal authority.  He was removed after the fact by Congress - after the Armed Forces forced him into exile in Costa Rica.

Him (the Honduran President) breaking the law doesn't mean their Supreme Court (and Armed Forces) can break the law either.  It really doesn't matter who broke the law first - the Armed Forces and/or Supreme Court were out of line in relieving him of his duties as president.  They should have arrested him and let Congress strip him of his power.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not sticking up for the former President in any way - he violated a ruling by the Supreme Court.  However, that does not give the Supreme Court the right to remove him (as far as I understand it).  There are checks and balances for a reason, and it seems like in this case the burden was on the legislative branch to remove him, not the judicial branch.  That's why there is outrage, that's why initial reports correctly referred to it as a coup.
Everything I've read shows that their congress (the legislative branch) supported the oust (decided by the judicial branch) for stability reasons.

Let me know if you find something concrete showing that the supreme court did not have the authority to oust a legally removed president (seriously). If they did have the authority then technically this is not a coup. Removal from the territory without due process is sketchy. I fully understand the logic of checks and balances. Logic isn't always law though. In this case it was two branches acting against one. .. we just need to find out if the judicial had the power to issue that order.
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KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6926|949

My point is that Congress acted around 8 hours after he was removed.  The timeline is sketchy, the court order is sketchy, the full reporting is sketchy.  The facts aren't all out there, which is why I'm kind of being careful with my wording.  Until I stumble across the actual court order and some more definite details I'll call out the court as out of line.  I question the courts and the Armed Forces due to them whisking him away to another country before any Congressional action - seems a little suspect, doesn't it?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6895|132 and Bush

Yes it does.. and your reasons for tip toe wording are mine as well.
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Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6895|132 and Bush

Well it's starting to look like everything that the Congress, the military, and the supreme court did was legal. In fact the only attempt to ignore their constitution was done by Zelaya.

George Landau former U.S. ambassador to Chile, Paraguay, and Venezuela wrote:

This was not a military coup. The military blocked an attempted civilian coup by Manuel Zelaya, as he defied Honduras’s Supreme Court, its Congress, and his own political party. Instead of calling for his reinstatement in office, we should congratulate the Honduran government on removing the president peacefully.
What happened in Honduras was not a standard coup. The Supreme Court ordered the army to remove Zelaya from office. The Congress, albeit after his detention and exile, voted unanimously for his removal and confirmed his constitutionally mandated successor to fill the remainder of his term in office.

Prior to his exile, Zelaya had insisted on a referendum to allow for his reelection in direct violation of the Honduran constitution. In other words, he set out to perpetuate himself in office. Roger Noriega, a former Bush administration official and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, puts it clearly: “Zelaya brushed aside every other institution of the state in insisting on a referendum that would benefit his selfish interests.”
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NT … BlODI2YTg=
The ballots for Sunday’s suspended referendum were actually prepared in Venezuela. On Saturday, Zelaya made an abortive effort to storm and steal the ballots from the Honduran military base where they were stored.
This is an important note since the state of Honduras had declared the ballots illegal and would not prepare them themselves.

Honduras had legitimate reason to remove Zelaya from office, even if arguably they used illegitimate means to do so (approving the exile after it was done).  Zelaya repeatedly violated the constitution of Honduras, first by attempting to hold the referendum, and second by illegally firing the chief of the Army, who reports to both the president and the legislature in Honduras.

There was no military coup, the military was the tool of government and there was a peaceful transition of government. CNN and other news outlets were quick to describe the action as a grasp for power, which is a story that fits the picture that many hold when they think of Latin American governments. This was anything but that. This was a government, all parties and branches working together, trying to prevent a tyrannical ruler from running roughshod over the constitution for his own purposes -- trying to prevent a ruler from taking the country down the Venezuela road. This issue is so important to the nation of Honduras that for the first time in its history
In accordance with the laws of Honduras as understood by the legislature and the Supreme Court, the Honduran military followed lawful civilian orders to exile President Zelaya to Costa Rica.
There was no military coup, the military was the tool of government and there was a peaceful transition of government. CNN and other news outlets were quick to describe the action as a grasp for power, which is a story that fits the picture that many hold when they think of Latin American governments. This was anything but that. This was a government, all parties and branches working together, trying to prevent a tyrannical ruler from running roughshod over the constitution for his own purposes -- trying to prevent a ruler from taking the country down the Venezuela road. This issue is so important to the nation of Honduras that for the first time in its history both major parties and other minor parties were galvanized in support of this necessary change. In a country of over 7 million people with 4.5 million voters, the overwhelming majority is in support of the government action. There have been only a few hundreds of Zelaya supporters seen on TV, but they are a tiny minority and not representative of the country.

In reality, what has happened in Honduras has been a triumph for the rule of law and responsible action on the parts of those from both major parties who were adamantly opposed to Zelaya's march towards becoming an old-style caudillo. The government and people of Honduras should be receiving plaudits, not condemnations from the civilized world. It is especially baffling as to why the USG would have moved so quickly to align itself with leaders who are distinctly unfriendly to it and are taking Latin America on a road that does not lead to freedom and democracy.
This looks like checks and balances at it's best to me. The Legislative, the Judicial, and the majority of Hondurans (from what I've seen) all seem to support his exile.

If you would like to see the (technical) legality of what the congress, judicial, and military did you can see it here.

They are saying that Zelaya, by his actions placed himself against the Honduran Constitution and more importantly according to the Congress, the Honduran Justice Ministry, and the Honduran Supreme Court, outside all the laws of Honduras.

    If he had obeyed the initial orders to cease and desist last week, parliamentary procedure would have been used to bring charges against him in the legislature under constitutional protections. However, when he called his supporters into the streets in direct violation of Honduran law and as a direct challenge to the soveriegn authority of the Honduran state he demonstrated his willingness to challenge the very foundations of the democratic state and thus by blatantly disregarding those laws and his duty to respect those laws he effectively forfeited his rights as President and put himself outside the legal protections of the nation. The only recourse left to them at that point was immediate arrest.
Article 272:

        The Armed Forces of Honduras are … established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in the presidency of the Republic.

    Constitutionally, it is the military that is charged, in concert with civilian organs of government, to ensure that the one-term limit of the presidency is enforced. It is the military that is constitutionally charged with ensuring the integrity of national elections.
Yes there was a better way of doing this, one that would not at least give the illusion of a coup.. but it seems everything that happened was in line with their constitutional law.
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