I did your response to his post, and yeah your counter point was selective in the sense you only addressed the part about leaving, and not the way the laws see them while living there.CameronPoe wrote:
Karbin was trying to suggest the above. Hence the selectivity. Try reading all the posts for a change.lowing wrote:
quite the selective counter point there Cam, I caught it.CameronPoe wrote:
They are allowed to leave. Back this nonsense up! It's kind of beside the point anyway - they ain't dead and they ain't been 'run out of town'. Period.
Context lowing CONTEXT. Fucking hell you're ignorant. Wow.lowing wrote:
wow and how many slaves lived in the US 150 years ago. Merely living in a country does not make your point of serenity Cam.CameronPoe wrote:
You do realise that some 25,000 Jews live in Iran? Tehran has over 20 synagogues.Karbin wrote:
We have seen what happens to "Safety and Security under the shadow of Islam". Iran run by Mulas, Afghanistan under the Taliban.. need we look farther?
We get it. YOU HATE MUSLIMS AND ARABS. Now get the fuck over it and sit in an angry little corner coming up with a new set of bigoted semantic arguments.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-06-06 11:19:34)
Hmmmm starting on the personal attacks a little early aren't ya? We have been through this before about the Jews in Iran and they are viewed as less than second class citizens by Islamic law there. Your argument that they actually live there was not his point.CameronPoe wrote:
Context lowing CONTEXT. Fucking hell you're ignorant. Wow.lowing wrote:
wow and how many slaves lived in the US 150 years ago. Merely living in a country does not make your point of serenity Cam.CameronPoe wrote:
You do realise that some 25,000 Jews live in Iran? Tehran has over 20 synagogues.
Might wanna read your posts compared to mine, you seem to be the one with anger managment issues.
Last edited by lowing (2009-06-06 11:22:31)
Lowing. In much the same manner that American Muslims are governed by a set of laws based in Chrisitanity, Iranian Jews and Christians are governed by a set of laws based on Islam. It's not really that difficult to understand..... duh.lowing wrote:
I did your response to his post, and yeah your counter point was selective in the sense you only addressed the part about leaving, and not the way the laws see them while living there.CameronPoe wrote:
Karbin was trying to suggest the above. Hence the selectivity. Try reading all the posts for a change.lowing wrote:
quite the selective counter point there Cam, I caught it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_JordanCameronPoe wrote:
There was one Karbin, there was, and there had been one there for several thousands of years. The problem came when the region was flooded with people who had no right to be there.Karbin wrote:
Cam, do you really think there would be a Jewish population there if the Arabs had won in '48?
Apparently, its not the first time a group of people tried to plant themselves in another country. Should Israel follow suit and do as Jordan did? How come I never hear anyone crying about what happened here or why Jordan doesn't or didn't allow Palestinians to create a homeland. I noticed that there aren't too many Arab countries allowing this too happen either. In fact, Egypt has a wall too to keep Palestinians out. How come no one wants the Palestinians....maybe because the leadership is infested with corruption and terrorism....maybe because Syria and Iran are meddling, providing arms and training to them. If Syria and Iran are so concerned..give the Palestinians a little corner to live in...wonder why they won't either?
The problem is that the Palestinian cause is a pawn used by quite a few elements to mess with Israel and vice versa. Until the Palestinians can clean their own house and be a LEGITIMATE cause, then there is no hope. Nothing is going to get done until then. Even if something is worked out, some outside group will do its best to mess it up. The land that is being fought over is claimed by many....many races, many religions and it has been for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change that. They will have to learn to live together or kill each other off and right now, they all choose the latter.
People need to stop blaming Israel for this mess or what is going on now. There is plenty of blame to go around and has been for thousands of years. Even Jordan called it "The Palestinian Problem" ....sounds familiar doesn't it? Everyone has to remember as well that Israel was attacked, Israel did win and DIDN'T keep every piece of land it could have kept, it gave a lot back even then. I don't hold Israel blameless, especially the settlement building but apparently no one is ready for Palestinians in any land. Not until they can prove legitimacy and clean up their act.
American Muslims are equal in the eyes of laws of our land. Can the same be said in Iran?CameronPoe wrote:
Lowing. In much the same manner that American Muslims are governed by a set of laws based in Chrisitanity, Iranian Jews and Christians are governed by a set of laws based on Islam. It's not really that difficult to understand..... duh.lowing wrote:
I did your response to his post, and yeah your counter point was selective in the sense you only addressed the part about leaving, and not the way the laws see them while living there.CameronPoe wrote:
Karbin was trying to suggest the above. Hence the selectivity. Try reading all the posts for a change.
DBY - the cause is LEGITIMATE, it's the means that is questionable. And you're forgetting one very large elephant in the corner: the west arming Israel and facilitating their quest to develop nuclear capabilities.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
Apparently, its not the first time a group of people tried to plant themselves in another country. Should Israel follow suit and do as Jordan did? How come I never hear anyone crying about what happened here or why Jordan doesn't or didn't allow Palestinians to create a homeland. I noticed that there aren't too many Arab countries allowing this too happen either. In fact, Egypt has a wall too to keep Palestinians out. How come no one wants the Palestinians....maybe because the leadership is infested with corruption and terrorism....maybe because Syria and Iran are meddling, providing arms and training to them. If Syria and Iran are so concerned..give the Palestinians a little corner to live in...wonder why they won't either?
The problem is that the Palestinian cause is a pawn used by quite a few elements to mess with Israel and vice versa. Until the Palestinians can clean their own house and be a LEGITIMATE cause, then there is no hope. Nothing is going to get done until then. Even if something is worked out, some outside group will do its best to mess it up. The land that is being fought over is claimed by many....many races, many religions and it has been for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change that. They will have to learn to live together or kill each other off and right now, they all choose the latter.
People need to stop blaming Israel for this mess or what is going on now. There is plenty of blame to go around and has been for thousands of years. Even Jordan called it "The Palestinian Problem" ....sounds familiar doesn't it? Everyone has to remember as well that Israel was attacked, Israel did win and DIDN'T keep every piece of land it could have kept, it gave a lot back even then. I don't hold Israel blameless, especially the settlement building but apparently no one is ready for Palestinians in any land. Not until they can prove legitimacy and clean up their act.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-06-06 11:29:16)
good and fair postDeathBecomesYu wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_JordanCameronPoe wrote:
There was one Karbin, there was, and there had been one there for several thousands of years. The problem came when the region was flooded with people who had no right to be there.Karbin wrote:
Cam, do you really think there would be a Jewish population there if the Arabs had won in '48?
Apparently, its not the first time a group of people tried to plant themselves in another country. Should Israel follow suit and do as Jordan did? How come I never hear anyone crying about what happened here or why Jordan doesn't or didn't allow Palestinians to create a homeland. I noticed that there aren't too many Arab countries allowing this too happen either. In fact, Egypt has a wall too to keep Palestinians out. How come no one wants the Palestinians....maybe because the leadership is infested with corruption and terrorism....maybe because Syria and Iran are meddling, providing arms and training to them. If Syria and Iran are so concerned..give the Palestinians a little corner to live in...wonder why they won't either?
The problem is that the Palestinian cause is a pawn used by quite a few elements to mess with Israel and vice versa. Until the Palestinians can clean their own house and be a LEGITIMATE cause, then there is no hope. Nothing is going to get done until then. Even if something is worked out, some outside group will do its best to mess it up. The land that is being fought over is claimed by many....many races, many religions and it has been for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change that. They will have to learn to live together or kill each other off and right now, they all choose the latter.
People need to stop blaming Israel for this mess or what is going on now. There is plenty of blame to go around and has been for thousands of years. Even Jordan called it "The Palestinian Problem" ....sounds familiar doesn't it? Everyone has to remember as well that Israel was attacked, Israel did win and DIDN'T keep every piece of land it could have kept, it gave a lot back even then. I don't hold Israel blameless, especially the settlement building but apparently no one is ready for Palestinians in any land. Not until they can prove legitimacy and clean up their act.
The process of immigration varies for different Iranian Jews and can take anywhere from nine months to several years.CameronPoe wrote:
They are allowed to leave. Back this nonsense up! It's kind of beside the point anyway - they ain't dead and they ain't been 'run out of town'. Period.Karbin wrote:
Not allowed to leave and have no rights against a Islamic person in practise. There law says the opposite but, the reality is no rights.CameronPoe wrote:
You do realise that some 25,000 Jews live in Iran?
http://www.javno.com/en-world/jewish-im … ran_109514
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html
There is no postal service or telephone contact with Israel, and any Iranian who dares travel to Israel faces imprisonment and passport confiscation.
The wave of anti-Israeli sentiment that swept Iran during the revolution, as well as large-scale confiscations of private wealth.
Better now?
ANTI-ISRAEL not ANTI-JEW. Israel != Judaism. Period.Karbin wrote:
The process of immigration varies for different Iranian Jews and can take anywhere from nine months to several years.CameronPoe wrote:
They are allowed to leave. Back this nonsense up! It's kind of beside the point anyway - they ain't dead and they ain't been 'run out of town'. Period.Karbin wrote:
Not allowed to leave and have no rights against a Islamic person in practise. There law says the opposite but, the reality is no rights.
http://www.javno.com/en-world/jewish-im … ran_109514
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html
There is no postal service or telephone contact with Israel, and any Iranian who dares travel to Israel faces imprisonment and passport confiscation.
The wave of anti-Israeli sentiment that swept Iran during the revolution, as well as large-scale confiscations of private wealth.
Better now?
Uh-oh wrong again!:
"Gone are the early days of the Iranian revolution when Jews - and many Muslims - found it hard to get passports to travel abroad.
"In the last five years the government has allowed Iranian Jews to go to Israel freely, meet their families and when they come back they face no problems," says Mr Mohtamed: the Jewish Iranian Member of Parliament!
Iran are no saints on tolerance but you're way off the mark.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-06-06 11:33:30)
Hmmm...imprisonment and passport confiscation for going to Israel.
Try it this way.
Imprisonment and passport confiscation for going from the U.S. or Britain to say Syria.
Think that would go down well?
Try it this way.
Imprisonment and passport confiscation for going from the U.S. or Britain to say Syria.
Think that would go down well?
The reasons for Palestinian statehood are legitimate but my point is that it will never happen until the Palestinian leadership becomes LEGIT. They need to weed out all the hands in the cookie jar. They need to get rid of the rogue elements that even threaten and kill their OWN people. Too many elements USE the Palestinian cause as a crutch or a ruse to cause other havok.CameronPoe wrote:
DBY - the cause is LEGITIMATE, it's the means that is questionable. And you're forgetting one very large elephant in the corner: the west arming Israel and facilitating their quest to develop nuclear capabilities.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
Apparently, its not the first time a group of people tried to plant themselves in another country. Should Israel follow suit and do as Jordan did? How come I never hear anyone crying about what happened here or why Jordan doesn't or didn't allow Palestinians to create a homeland. I noticed that there aren't too many Arab countries allowing this too happen either. In fact, Egypt has a wall too to keep Palestinians out. How come no one wants the Palestinians....maybe because the leadership is infested with corruption and terrorism....maybe because Syria and Iran are meddling, providing arms and training to them. If Syria and Iran are so concerned..give the Palestinians a little corner to live in...wonder why they won't either?
The problem is that the Palestinian cause is a pawn used by quite a few elements to mess with Israel and vice versa. Until the Palestinians can clean their own house and be a LEGITIMATE cause, then there is no hope. Nothing is going to get done until then. Even if something is worked out, some outside group will do its best to mess it up. The land that is being fought over is claimed by many....many races, many religions and it has been for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change that. They will have to learn to live together or kill each other off and right now, they all choose the latter.
People need to stop blaming Israel for this mess or what is going on now. There is plenty of blame to go around and has been for thousands of years. Even Jordan called it "The Palestinian Problem" ....sounds familiar doesn't it? Everyone has to remember as well that Israel was attacked, Israel did win and DIDN'T keep every piece of land it could have kept, it gave a lot back even then. I don't hold Israel blameless, especially the settlement building but apparently no one is ready for Palestinians in any land. Not until they can prove legitimacy and clean up their act.
By the way, I didn't forget anything about Israel. I know they aren't angels and I know that their settlement building is over the top and I know that this conflict is being used as a proxy by both the west and the Arabs and it has been that way for thousands of years. The bottom line is that both sides are idiots but the Palestinians have lost control of their legitimacy. The cause is legitimate but not much else. Clean up their act and then Israel and the west can't say anything and when more land is taken or innocent Palestinians are killed, then only one side can be blamed. Maybe then, somebody will do the right thing.
I honestly don't know how it will ever end, its land that too many people want and claim, too many religions call their "home"...in my opinion, it will always be a vicious circle of violence. Even if Israel disappeared, I don't believe for a second that it would change anything. Some other group will claim and want this land too.
I am left wondering why, Iran builds an atomic bomb, and it is not a problem. Israel builds a house, and it is WW3.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
The reasons for Palestinian statehood are legitimate but my point is that it will never happen until the Palestinian leadership becomes LEGIT. They need to weed out all the hands in the cookie jar. They need to get rid of the rogue elements that even threaten and kill their OWN people. Too many elements USE the Palestinian cause as a crutch or a ruse to cause other havok.CameronPoe wrote:
DBY - the cause is LEGITIMATE, it's the means that is questionable. And you're forgetting one very large elephant in the corner: the west arming Israel and facilitating their quest to develop nuclear capabilities.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
Apparently, its not the first time a group of people tried to plant themselves in another country. Should Israel follow suit and do as Jordan did? How come I never hear anyone crying about what happened here or why Jordan doesn't or didn't allow Palestinians to create a homeland. I noticed that there aren't too many Arab countries allowing this too happen either. In fact, Egypt has a wall too to keep Palestinians out. How come no one wants the Palestinians....maybe because the leadership is infested with corruption and terrorism....maybe because Syria and Iran are meddling, providing arms and training to them. If Syria and Iran are so concerned..give the Palestinians a little corner to live in...wonder why they won't either?
The problem is that the Palestinian cause is a pawn used by quite a few elements to mess with Israel and vice versa. Until the Palestinians can clean their own house and be a LEGITIMATE cause, then there is no hope. Nothing is going to get done until then. Even if something is worked out, some outside group will do its best to mess it up. The land that is being fought over is claimed by many....many races, many religions and it has been for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change that. They will have to learn to live together or kill each other off and right now, they all choose the latter.
People need to stop blaming Israel for this mess or what is going on now. There is plenty of blame to go around and has been for thousands of years. Even Jordan called it "The Palestinian Problem" ....sounds familiar doesn't it? Everyone has to remember as well that Israel was attacked, Israel did win and DIDN'T keep every piece of land it could have kept, it gave a lot back even then. I don't hold Israel blameless, especially the settlement building but apparently no one is ready for Palestinians in any land. Not until they can prove legitimacy and clean up their act.
By the way, I didn't forget anything about Israel. I know they aren't angels and I know that their settlement building is over the top and I know that this conflict is being used as a proxy by both the west and the Arabs and it has been that way for thousands of years. The bottom line is that both sides are idiots but the Palestinians have lost control of their legitimacy. The cause is legitimate but not much else. Clean up their act and then Israel and the west can't say anything and when more land is taken or innocent Palestinians are killed, then only one side can be blamed. Maybe then, somebody will do the right thing.
I honestly don't know how it will ever end, its land that too many people want and claim, too many religions call their "home"...in my opinion, it will always be a vicious circle of violence. Even if Israel disappeared, I don't believe for a second that it would change anything. Some other group will claim and want this land too.
The land Israel covers now was land lost in a war started by nations who launched attacks from it. They didn't play nice so the they had their toys taken away. Not unprecedented in the world.
Same thoughts here.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
The reasons for Palestinian statehood are legitimate but my point is that it will never happen until the Palestinian leadership becomes LEGIT. They need to weed out all the hands in the cookie jar. They need to get rid of the rogue elements that even threaten and kill their OWN people. Too many elements USE the Palestinian cause as a crutch or a ruse to cause other havok.CameronPoe wrote:
DBY - the cause is LEGITIMATE, it's the means that is questionable. And you're forgetting one very large elephant in the corner: the west arming Israel and facilitating their quest to develop nuclear capabilities.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
Apparently, its not the first time a group of people tried to plant themselves in another country. Should Israel follow suit and do as Jordan did? How come I never hear anyone crying about what happened here or why Jordan doesn't or didn't allow Palestinians to create a homeland. I noticed that there aren't too many Arab countries allowing this too happen either. In fact, Egypt has a wall too to keep Palestinians out. How come no one wants the Palestinians....maybe because the leadership is infested with corruption and terrorism....maybe because Syria and Iran are meddling, providing arms and training to them. If Syria and Iran are so concerned..give the Palestinians a little corner to live in...wonder why they won't either?
The problem is that the Palestinian cause is a pawn used by quite a few elements to mess with Israel and vice versa. Until the Palestinians can clean their own house and be a LEGITIMATE cause, then there is no hope. Nothing is going to get done until then. Even if something is worked out, some outside group will do its best to mess it up. The land that is being fought over is claimed by many....many races, many religions and it has been for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change that. They will have to learn to live together or kill each other off and right now, they all choose the latter.
People need to stop blaming Israel for this mess or what is going on now. There is plenty of blame to go around and has been for thousands of years. Even Jordan called it "The Palestinian Problem" ....sounds familiar doesn't it? Everyone has to remember as well that Israel was attacked, Israel did win and DIDN'T keep every piece of land it could have kept, it gave a lot back even then. I don't hold Israel blameless, especially the settlement building but apparently no one is ready for Palestinians in any land. Not until they can prove legitimacy and clean up their act.
By the way, I didn't forget anything about Israel. I know they aren't angels and I know that their settlement building is over the top and I know that this conflict is being used as a proxy by both the west and the Arabs and it has been that way for thousands of years. The bottom line is that both sides are idiots but the Palestinians have lost control of their legitimacy. The cause is legitimate but not much else. Clean up their act and then Israel and the west can't say anything and when more land is taken or innocent Palestinians are killed, then only one side can be blamed. Maybe then, somebody will do the right thing.
I honestly don't know how it will ever end, its land that too many people want and claim, too many religions call their "home"...in my opinion, it will always be a vicious circle of violence. Even if Israel disappeared, I don't believe for a second that it would change anything. Some other group will claim and want this land too.
Having seen what the Jews have made of Israel, and what most of the Arabs have made of their lands.. on that alone, I'd back Israel.
@ Cam:
I work with a ex-pat Muslim Iranian, a Jewish ex-pat Iranian and a ex-pat Christan Palestinian.
Both Iranians sneaked out, leaving every thing behind. Land, money, family. They couldn't get out any other way.
The Palestinian stands in the "We were forced out" group and will not hear any thing different.
As long as opinions on the ME remain entrenched, nothing will change.
Are you forgetting the way Israel secretly built nuclear weapons, breaking the NPT?lowing wrote:
I am left wondering why, Iran builds an atomic bomb, and it is not a problem. Israel builds a house, and it is WW3.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
The reasons for Palestinian statehood are legitimate but my point is that it will never happen until the Palestinian leadership becomes LEGIT. They need to weed out all the hands in the cookie jar. They need to get rid of the rogue elements that even threaten and kill their OWN people. Too many elements USE the Palestinian cause as a crutch or a ruse to cause other havok.CameronPoe wrote:
DBY - the cause is LEGITIMATE, it's the means that is questionable. And you're forgetting one very large elephant in the corner: the west arming Israel and facilitating their quest to develop nuclear capabilities.
By the way, I didn't forget anything about Israel. I know they aren't angels and I know that their settlement building is over the top and I know that this conflict is being used as a proxy by both the west and the Arabs and it has been that way for thousands of years. The bottom line is that both sides are idiots but the Palestinians have lost control of their legitimacy. The cause is legitimate but not much else. Clean up their act and then Israel and the west can't say anything and when more land is taken or innocent Palestinians are killed, then only one side can be blamed. Maybe then, somebody will do the right thing.
I honestly don't know how it will ever end, its land that too many people want and claim, too many religions call their "home"...in my opinion, it will always be a vicious circle of violence. Even if Israel disappeared, I don't believe for a second that it would change anything. Some other group will claim and want this land too.
The land Israel covers now was land lost in a war started by nations who launched attacks from it. They didn't play nice so the they had their toys taken away. Not unprecedented in the world.
How does that differ?
Fixed.Karbin wrote:
As long as Arab opinions on the ME remain entrenched, nothing will change.
The Palestinian and other Arab leaders refuse accept Israel as a Jewish state. They don't want peace, they want the Jews gone.
Like many people, Cam likes to pretend otherwise.
good question and here is a great answer. Israel never signed the NPT, so they are not breaking anything. Iran however did sign and is thus breaking the NPT. Don't know about you, but I see a difference.Bertster7 wrote:
Are you forgetting the way Israel secretly built nuclear weapons, breaking the NPT?lowing wrote:
I am left wondering why, Iran builds an atomic bomb, and it is not a problem. Israel builds a house, and it is WW3.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
The reasons for Palestinian statehood are legitimate but my point is that it will never happen until the Palestinian leadership becomes LEGIT. They need to weed out all the hands in the cookie jar. They need to get rid of the rogue elements that even threaten and kill their OWN people. Too many elements USE the Palestinian cause as a crutch or a ruse to cause other havok.
By the way, I didn't forget anything about Israel. I know they aren't angels and I know that their settlement building is over the top and I know that this conflict is being used as a proxy by both the west and the Arabs and it has been that way for thousands of years. The bottom line is that both sides are idiots but the Palestinians have lost control of their legitimacy. The cause is legitimate but not much else. Clean up their act and then Israel and the west can't say anything and when more land is taken or innocent Palestinians are killed, then only one side can be blamed. Maybe then, somebody will do the right thing.
I honestly don't know how it will ever end, its land that too many people want and claim, too many religions call their "home"...in my opinion, it will always be a vicious circle of violence. Even if Israel disappeared, I don't believe for a second that it would change anything. Some other group will claim and want this land too.
The land Israel covers now was land lost in a war started by nations who launched attacks from it. They didn't play nice so the they had their toys taken away. Not unprecedented in the world.
How does that differ?
This is true, proof being that everytime Israel concedes land it is then used as launching platforms against them.san4 wrote:
Fixed.Karbin wrote:
As long as Arab opinions on the ME remain entrenched, nothing will change.
The Palestinian and other Arab leaders refuse accept Israel as a Jewish state. They don't want peace, they want the Jews gone.
Like many people, Cam likes to pretend otherwise.
Lowing I didn't realise Ahmadinejad had given you inside knowledge about his nukes.
That is beause you are not on a need to know basis.ghettoperson wrote:
Lowing I didn't realise Ahmadinejad had given you inside knowledge about his nukes.
Of course. And naturally you are.
Yes I am.ghettoperson wrote:
Of course. And naturally you are.
Seriously though, are you saying that you do not believe Iran is putting nukes together?
I hear crickets
yea but only for better protection maybe so that way U.S. or Israel wouldn't attack them?lowing wrote:
Yes I am.ghettoperson wrote:
Of course. And naturally you are.
Seriously though, are you saying that you do not believe Iran is putting nukes together?
"Why should we allow..."Harmor wrote:
Why should we allow Palestinians to have their own state if half their government are terrorists who indiscriminately send rockets into civilian areas of Israel?
Whose people support suicide bomber killing dozens of civilians at a time?
Whose people support these war crimes?
Why? Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we expect the Palestinians to moderate first before we ever concede anything to them?
Why do Palestinians deserve a state?
There are civilians in Palestine as well not just Hezbolah fighters and those deserve their own country, more than Israel does imo.
