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Macbeth
Banned
+2,443|4706

Some lawmakers are questioning the wisdom of releasing hundreds of photos potentially showing U.S. military personnel abusing prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on New York City and the Pentagon.

"If we release the pictures, the odds are that Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups will then use our pictures to recruit people to come into the war against us," Sen. Joe Lieberman. I-Conn., told FOX News.

The Pentagon plans to release the photos by May 28 in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union. The move comes after the Justice Department lost its latest round in federal court and concluded that any further appeal probably would be fruitless.

But critics of the move say it will become a sequel to the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq, which caused an international backlash against the U.S., with photos in 2004 of grinning U.S. soldiers posing with detainees, some naked, being held on leashes or in painful positions.

The ACLU claims the release will help the American people decide whether the abuse was widespread or, as the Bush administration claimed, bad acts by rogue actors.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05 … nee-abuse/
This is going to be interesting to watch unfold. So should the photos be released so everyone will know what happened even if it risk American lives or should the photos be sent down the memory hole to protect American Troops?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,756|5227|eXtreme to the maX
Pretty obvious it was widespread, just a few were dumb enough to take photos.
#Freed Britney !
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|5115|Truthistan
They must have looked at the pictures and they must be really bad for them to freak out and reneg on releasing them.

IMO it speaks more to the abuses of the Bush administration, really that would be abuses by Cheney and Rumsfield, than it does to any broken promise made by PBO

Those pics must be really bad, and the comments by Cheney lately where he tries to use Bush as a shield show that Cheney must fear the potential criminal indictments against him. Basically Cheney was saying that if he goes down he's taking Bush with him. This is not about national security as he purports it is. Not that I think that there while ever be criminal indictments in all this, but it sure looks like the rats are looking for the exits.


Personally I would hope that these things eventually see the light of day, that they are properly condemned and that future neo-cons are prohibited from reusing these techniques in the future. In other words let's take away the neo-con toys before they really hurt the country.
13rin
Member
+977|5600

Dilbert_X wrote:

Pretty obvious it was widespread, just a few were dumb enough to take photos.
I don't blame em.  Nor do I care.  Obama flip flopped, but he did the right thing.  Bout' f'n time.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|5650|Global Command
Indefinite Detention part TWO


lol Obama is such a douchebag punk ass kid.
Not worthy of the job tbh.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,756|5227|eXtreme to the maX
I don't blame em.  Nor do I care.
Why exactly?
Iraq never attacked the US.
#Freed Britney !
JahManRed
wank
+646|5749|IRELAND

"If we release the pictures, the odds are that Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups will then use our pictures to recruit people to come into the war against us," Sen. Joe Lieberman. I-Conn., told FOX News.
Cause and effect, fuckwit!
Seriously. Do these numb skulls not understand that abusing ppls human rights is the best recruiting Sargent for terrorists?

The British learned it here with internment 30-40 years ago. Swelling the ranks of a terrorist organisation on its knees. Boosting funding etc. Does no one in the military read history to actually learn from it? Or are they intent on repeating past mistakes?
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,610|5742|London, England
Obama was realising that he was angering the far right too much and this would've been maybe one step too far for them, probably fearing for his life at the moment as to why he's flip flopping etc.. cos that's what it looks like from here!

Can't blame him for doing what he's done, ontop of everything he has already done to piss off the CIA and the far right etc..

Secret service have their work cut out for them

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2009-05-14 05:10:41)

AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,760|5273|what

Macbeth wrote:

This is going to be interesting to watch unfold. So should the photos be released so everyone will know what happened even if it risk American lives or should the photos be sent down the memory hole to protect American Troops?
I don't care about the photos. What I care about is those who committed the torture, those who authorised the torture and those who concealed that fact torture was undertaken should be held accountable.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

"coz you a far cry from acclaim nigga ubisoft"
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,756|5227|eXtreme to the maX
And this is how the British got results in WW2

Thousands of German POWs held captive in England during World War II were bugged by "secret listeners" who were themselves German, working for the British. Historian Helen Fry and one of the last surviving listeners explain how the prisoners were lulled into divulging secrets of the Nazi war machine.

One group of German generals captured during World War II thought they had hit the jackpot.

Held in a stately home, they were allowed to keep personal servants, drink wine and eat good food.

As a result they boasted of how stupid the British were, and one even wrote to his family to wish that they could join him at his prison, as he rated it so highly.

But what the prisoners did not know was that British intelligence had bugged every part of their accommodation, from lampshades and plant pots right down to the billiards table around which they relaxed on lazy days.

They were gleaning information about the psyche of the Nazi military from the idle gossip flowing between the prisoners.

Carefully listening in on their conversations were fellow Germans of Jewish origin who had fled from the Nazis.

The bugged prisoners were kept in three locations - Latimer House near Amersham, Wilton Park near Beaconsfield, both in Buckinghamshire, and Trent Park near Cockfosters in north London. The first two held captured U-Boat submarine crews and Luftwaffe pilots, who were bugged for a week or two before being moved on to conventional captivity.

The generals, whose numbers eventually reached a peak of 59 as the war progressed, resided in Trent Park until the war ended.

Hidden nearby in each of the three stately-homes-turned-prisons were the pro-British Germans, listening in a place known as the "M room" - the "m" stood for microphoned - where "secret listeners" were glued to the bugging devices.

Historian Helen Fry, who has written a book called The M Room: Secret Listeners who bugged the Nazis., says the information gleaned by the eavesdropping of the German generals was vitally important to the war effort - so much so that it was given an unlimited budget by the government.

She believes what was learned by the M room operations was as significant as the code-breaking work being done at Bletchley Park.

"British intelligence got the most amazing stuff in bugging the conversations. Churchill said of Trent Park that it afforded a unique insight into the psyche of the enemy. It enabled us to understand the mind-set of the enemy as well as learn military secrets.

"If it wasn't for this bugging operation, we may well have not won the war."

Mrs Fry said the conversation transcripts, which numbered more than 100,000, provided the British with "most of what we knew" about Germany's military capability, its weaponry and its new development of technology during the war.

Through intelligence pieced together from prisoner conversations, the British were able to identify and heavily bomb a V2 rocket site in May 1943 at Peenemunde on the northern coast of Germany, which was preparing to launch deadly rockets at Britain.

Crucially, she adds, the bugging was the first time the British overheard admissions that the German army had taken part in the atrocities and mass killing of Jews and were guilty of war crimes.

"The army had always denied it and that was believed for the last 65 years. What the transcripts show us now is that the German army - with the SS - was complicit in war crimes," she says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20698098
See, no need to commit war crimes to get results, I bet it was far more productive milking senior officers compared with torturing thousands of random Iraqis who had nothing to do with AQ or the insurgency.
#Freed Britney !
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5837
Or do what the Malaysians do: treat them like "good men gone astray" there was a JI senior leader who was capt and he helped the malaysian gov because of how well they treated him.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,756|5227|eXtreme to the maX
There were people in the CIA who had the same idea, but the thicknecked badasses had their way and there we go.
#Freed Britney !
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5837

Dilbert_X wrote:

There were people in the CIA who had the same idea, but the thicknecked badasses had their way and there we go.
One's sent to gitmo wasn't even for "intelligence" it was mainly just to torture the shit out of the fuckers. Pretty much what they did to Hambali. Caught the dude could've used him for intel, but they already know what hambali knows so might as well torture the shit out of him.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,937|5892|USA

Hide it or show it, shit's gonna go down.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,443|4706

I actually read Henri Alleg's account of his torture by French troops in Algeria yesterday. It is interesting that the French were commiting what we would consider full torture but also using waterboarding and other things we consider enhanced interrogation methods. Knowing that a group that was committing summary executions and killing prisoners during torture sessions found waterboarding to be a useful tool throws into question the morality of us using it.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,756|5227|eXtreme to the maX
Did the French win in Algeria?

Torture didn't acheive anything in Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan.
#Freed Britney !
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5837

Dilbert_X wrote:

Did the French win in Algeria?

Torture didn't acheive anything in Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan.
or anythign for that matter. torture is the most unreliable method of intelligence gathering
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,927|5753|949

Dilbert_X wrote:

Did the French win in Algeria?
seems like you're implying the ends justify the means?  So if they 'won' in Algeria, waterboarding would be ok?
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|3375

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Did the French win in Algeria?
seems like you're implying the ends justify the means?  So if they 'won' in Algeria, waterboarding would be ok?
france failed miserably in algeria. it was the event that showed what a hollow crook de gaulle was. check a history book.

speaking of algeria... what a clusterfuck with this gas refinery hostage situation. 60 hostages taken, algeria mount a military attack without any foreign consultation/help... reports of algerian helicopters strafing buildings with hostages in. all out assault. 30 hostages dead and most of the rest holed up with the jihadis in an african waco. what a fucking incompetent mess.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,927|5753|949

i know france failed in algeria - hence the "so if they 'won', it would be ok" statement.  thanks though
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,756|5227|eXtreme to the maX
There was no "so if they 'won', it would be ok" statement, torture and brutality was part of why they lost.

We're still talking about Algeria, what the Nazis did in WW2, does anyone think the Iraqis, Afghans and Pakistanis are going to forgive and forget the atrocities the Americans have committed in the name of 'freedom'?

If one group of people has a long memory and a culture of not forgiving its the Arabs/muslims.
#Freed Britney !
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|5835|US
I don't condone torture.  Some methods of torture and interrogation are used for a reason though.  A smart (not necessarily moral) interrogator will key in on the prisoner's limits and weaknesses.  Sometimes these things are more for revenge than information, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions when talking about the professionals (as scary a thought it is that there even ARE professionals!)
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|5835|US
Also, HOLY THREAD REVIVE, BATMAN!
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,927|5753|949

RAIMIUS wrote:

I don't condone torture.  Some methods of torture and interrogation are used for a reason though.  A smart (not necessarily moral) interrogator will key in on the prisoner's limits and weaknesses.  Sometimes these things are more for revenge than information, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions when talking about the professionals (as scary a thought it is that there even ARE professionals!)
And then there are activities that are done strictly to dehumanize the person, which cannot be condoned ever.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,756|5227|eXtreme to the maX

RAIMIUS wrote:

I don't condone torture.
Some methods of torture and interrogation are used for a reason though.
Pick one.

Really, its not been shown that torture in Iraq or Afghanistan ever produced anything useful.
Even if it did it wouldn't be moral, and there would have been better ways to achieve the same objective so what would be the point, apart from so some Jack Bauer fantasist can feel better about himself?
#Freed Britney !

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