BVC
Member
+325|6996
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2400963 … dy-removed
There are a bunch of links & videos explaining the story here.

A man who is a former territorial soldier(army reserves) and bodybuilder came home to find three cops searching his house under warrant for his small crop of cannabis plants.  He flipped out, grabbed a gun, shot the three cops and one neighbour, killing one cop and hospitalising the other three victims.  A 50+ hour seige of his house followed, involving 100-150 cops, all of whom were armed with rifles of various types, the STG (Special Tactics Group - they're not quite SAS but are pretty fucking hardcore), and two army LAVs, each armed with two 7.62mm MGs and one 25mm cannon.  The property was not stormed as it was feared that he had rigged it with explosives.

The video in this link contains footage of an exchange between the cops and the guy, starting at ~2:40
http://www.3news.co.nz/Video/Napier-gun … aspx#video

NZ law requires that you obtain a firearms lisence in order to operate firearms.  A-category for hunting rifles, B endorsement for pistols, C collector, D dealer and a seperate E category lisence for military-style arms, and firearms carrying more than 7 rounds (15 rounds for rimfire .22).  Anything other than an A-cat is extremely difficult to get, you must have a legitimate reason and must pass a shitload of background and psychological checks.  When firearms of any type change hands, both parties in the exchange must verify that they have the correct lisence type/endorsement.

This guy did not have a valid firearms lisence, yet had around 40 firearms, including an L1A1 SLR (FN FAL), two AKs, pistols, a sniper rifle and other assorted rifles/shotguns, not to mention literally thousands of rounds and at least one drum magazine (pictured, presumably for the AKs).  The police have yet to locate all of his arsenal, but it is known there are at least two caches of 18-20 guns each, in two rooms.  Nobody except his friends knew that he had this many guns.

We have strict gun laws and unlike the US & Europe we have the benefit of geographic isolation, yet this guy was able to amass enough guns & ammo to outfit an entire platoon of soldiers.  What does this prove?  Strict gun control measures/laws & solid border controls do not stop criminals from obtaining firearms.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6586
Gun control doesn't stop all gun crime, nobody with any sense is saying it is. What it can do is greatly reduce it. NZ has a comparatively low firearm homicide rate.
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|6003|College Park, MD
that's why you don't roid rage at cops when you illegally own 40 firearms
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7016|US
Gun control usually has little effect on overall violent crime, although there are some substitution effects.

Depending on the culture, restrictive gun laws can decrease the amount of guns in circulation.  The question becomes, are criminals affected in the desired way?  In nations like Russia and Mexico, the answer is fairly obvious--nope.  In Japan, perhaps...
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7069

Pubic wrote:

Strict gun control measures/laws & solid border controls do not stop criminals from obtaining firearms.
maybe, maybe not.

The flaw in this scenario is not the laws pertaining to an individual but the failure to police the trafficking of illegal weapons.
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6748|Chicago, IL

BN wrote:

Pubic wrote:

Strict gun control measures/laws & solid border controls do not stop criminals from obtaining firearms.
maybe, maybe not.

The flaw in this scenario is not the laws pertaining to an individual but the failure to police the trafficking of illegal weapons.
traffickers have better guns than the police

street cops in chicago have service pistols, gang standard is an smg, and many assault rifles have been found too
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6523|Brisneyland
This seems like a fairly isolated incident to me, I wouldnt condemn gun control because of it.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6407|eXtreme to the maX
Generally speaking, gun control is a good thing, if it means criminals struggle to get hold of guns.
This guy doesn't seem to have had much difficulty.
Fuck Israel
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7016|US

Dilbert_X wrote:

Generally speaking, gun control is a good thing, if it means criminals struggle to get hold of guns.
This guy doesn't seem to have had much difficulty.
That depends.  Is there a net benefit to society?  Gun control laws tend to affect the law-abiding population a lot more than criminals (since they tend to ignore them).  I'm all for limiting criminal access to firearms, but we need to examine the whole picture.

Then, is gun-control really the most efficient use of government resources.  It is treating a symptom.  Is it an efficient treatment of a symptom?  Would it be more cost-efficient to treat the disease (violence)?  I'm of the opinion that government resources would be better spent by addressing the root causes of crime and in punishment.
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6523|Brisneyland

RAIMIUS wrote:

Then, is gun-control really the most efficient use of government resources.  It is treating a symptom.  Is it an efficient treatment of a symptom?  Would it be more cost-efficient to treat the disease (violence)?  I'm of the opinion that government resources would be better spent by addressing the root causes of crime and in punishment.
You make a good point, but how do we treat the disease. How do we stop violence , greater punishment, more social programs. These are both admirable, but it wont stop a nutter using a gun he has easy access to.

Make gun ownership something that needs a significant checks and balances ( criminal history/ mental checks) and less nutters have easy access to guns.

Looks like New Zealanders can get access to heaps of different guns anyway, they just have to go through checks first, which is a good thing.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6407|eXtreme to the maX
That depends.  Is there a net benefit to society?  Gun control laws tend to affect the law-abiding population a lot more than criminals (since they tend to ignore them).
Depends.
If the laws are harsh enough, and enforced enough, then criminals are less likely to ignore them.
Therein lies the problem I guess.
Build more prisons and enforce existing laws is my solution.
Fuck Israel
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7016|US

Burwhale wrote:

You make a good point, but how do we treat the disease. How do we stop violence , greater punishment, more social programs. These are both admirable, but it wont stop a nutter using a gun he has easy access to.
That's the $64,000 question...
Realistically, there is no way to stop every person bent on destruction and murder.  It is an imperfect world.  What we face is how to limit the number that slip through the system and turn violent.

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