Chavez/Obama

2009-04-18 20:10:10

#26

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6903|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
I'm sure America isn't particularly popular in Venezuela
I disagree. ..at least from what I've seen. I lived in Venezuela for a year. What I saw was America being admired for the most part. Of course that was pre-Chavez.
If that truly was the case then Chavez wouldn't consistently get elected and would probably never have been elected at all. Perhaps you were moving in more 'bourgeois' circles. Having said that I noticed a certain admiration among Panamanians for elements of the US 'way of life' from going out with a girl from Panama and visiting the place. But perhaps I too could be faulted in my impressions for the fact I was moving in semi-bourgeois circles. They don't seem to realise that their own governments (in Latin America that is) have been selling out to the US and the developed world in general for decades, something I believe contributes massively to their rich-poor divides.

Well, at the time you were either in a 'bourgeois' circle or kickin it in the barrios. There was no in between. There was no overt anti-American sentiment then. In fact the reason I was there was that they had invited an American company in to rebuild (actually build) some of their infrastructure. Venezuelans supported Chavez for various different reasons. His election is not a direct result of Venezuelan anti-American sentiment, nor can it be concluded that an endorsement of his policies (given the Venezuelan situation at the time) is what should always be. I remember multiple coup attempts and trying to get out of the country only to get to the Caracas airport and realize they were completely shut down. It's no surprise that a guy like Chavez (a strong sense of nationality) took power during a time of extreme divisiveness. I still keep in touch with some of my friends down there. They don't take Chavez serious when he starts on about the American devil... although they think it's pretty funny.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-04-18 20:17:29

#27

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6857

Kmarion wrote:
Well, at the time you were either in a 'bourgeois' circles or kickin it in the barrios. There was no in between. There was no overt anti-American sentiment then. In fact the reason I was there was they had invited an American company in to rebuild (actually build) some of their infrastructure. Venezuelans supported Chavez for various different reasons. His election is not a direct result of Venezuelan anti-American sentiment, nor can it be concluded that an endorsement of his policies (given the Venezuelan situation at the time) is what should always be. I remember multiple coup attempt and trying to get out of the country only to get to the Caracas airport and realize they were completely shut down. It's no surprise that a guy like Chavez (a strong sense of nationality) took power during a time of extreme divisiveness. I still keep in touch with some of my friends down there. They don't take Chavez serious when he starts on about the American devil... although they think it's pretty funny.

I don't think Chavez gets elected on the back of anti-US sentiment at all (or much anyway). I think it is simply a rejection of right wing politics having failed to deliver for an exceptionally long time. The average standard of living had not risen and this was their reaction to that. These Latin American governments often have a naive belief that stimulating inward investment from abroad - through dropping restrictions on the movement of capital and giving foreign entities certain breaks - will solve all their problems. The fact remains that growth and a higher standard of living must stand on a solid base of indigenous entrepreneurialism and self-sufficiency, not the whims of multinationals flitting across the world chasing the lowest wage they can possibly pay.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-04-18 20:18:06)

2009-04-18 20:20:50

#28

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6707|North Carolina

CameronPoe wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
Well, at the time you were either in a 'bourgeois' circles or kickin it in the barrios. There was no in between. There was no overt anti-American sentiment then. In fact the reason I was there was they had invited an American company in to rebuild (actually build) some of their infrastructure. Venezuelans supported Chavez for various different reasons. His election is not a direct result of Venezuelan anti-American sentiment, nor can it be concluded that an endorsement of his policies (given the Venezuelan situation at the time) is what should always be. I remember multiple coup attempt and trying to get out of the country only to get to the Caracas airport and realize they were completely shut down. It's no surprise that a guy like Chavez (a strong sense of nationality) took power during a time of extreme divisiveness. I still keep in touch with some of my friends down there. They don't take Chavez serious when he starts on about the American devil... although they think it's pretty funny.
I don't think Chavez gets elected on the back of anti-US sentiment at all (or much anyway). I think it is simply a rejection of right wing politics having failed to deliver for an exceptionally long time. The average standard of living had not risen and this was their reaction to that. These Latin American governments often have a naive belief that stimulating inward investment from abroad - through dropping restrictions on the movement of capital and giving foreign entities certain breaks - will solve all their problems. The fact remains that growth and a higher standard of living must stand on a solid base of indigenous entrepreneurialism and self-sufficiency, not the whims of multinationals flitting across the world chasing the lowest wage they can possibly pay.

Not to mention the fact that many of these countries lack decent social programs or education systems. The corruption of many of these governments keeps most revenue from being properly invested in infrastructures that could advance the standard of living.

2009-04-18 20:23:40

#29

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6903|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
Well, at the time you were either in a 'bourgeois' circles or kickin it in the barrios. There was no in between. There was no overt anti-American sentiment then. In fact the reason I was there was they had invited an American company in to rebuild (actually build) some of their infrastructure. Venezuelans supported Chavez for various different reasons. His election is not a direct result of Venezuelan anti-American sentiment, nor can it be concluded that an endorsement of his policies (given the Venezuelan situation at the time) is what should always be. I remember multiple coup attempt and trying to get out of the country only to get to the Caracas airport and realize they were completely shut down. It's no surprise that a guy like Chavez (a strong sense of nationality) took power during a time of extreme divisiveness. I still keep in touch with some of my friends down there. They don't take Chavez serious when he starts on about the American devil... although they think it's pretty funny.
I don't think Chavez gets elected on the back of anti-US sentiment at all (or much anyway). I think it is simply a rejection of right wing politics having failed to deliver for an exceptionally long time. The average standard of living had not risen and this was their reaction to that. These Latin American governments often have a naive belief that stimulating inward investment from abroad - through dropping restrictions on the movement of capital and giving foreign entities certain breaks - will solve all their problems. The fact remains that growth and a higher standard of living must stand on a solid base of indigenous entrepreneurialism and self-sufficiency, not the whims of multinationals flitting across the world chasing the lowest wage they can possibly pay.

I agree, and I can personally tell you that those extreme right wing elements did not work because they were 100'xs worse then anything the USA has ever had. You cant pretend to practice those policies with the amount of corruption and instability they had at the time. I've said before that Venezuela needed a Chavez type... however you don't always drive 60 mph on the road. The success of a country is dependent upon it's ability to change and adjust to meet the varying needs of it's population. This is why the thought of doing away with term limits is disturbing to me.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-04-19 03:48:10

#30

BN: smells like wee wee; +159|7070

We have got some pretty good, level headed debate going on here.

2009-04-19 19:09:47

#31

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6903|132 and Bush

President Obama said Sunday that the United States, with its overwhelming military superiority and need to improve its global image, could afford to extend such diplomatic "courtesy."

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-04-19 20:29:26

#32

13rin: Member; +977|6781

Kmarion wrote:
President Obama said Sunday that the United States, with its overwhelming military superiority and need to improve its global image, could afford to extend such diplomatic "courtesy."

Lesson learned... sigh.

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2009-04-19 21:00:16

#33

Catbox: forgiveness; +505|7018

Why is South America so backwards and why do they have to deal with leaders like Chavez and Castro etc?
It cant all be the US' fault... as they think... or what the leaders tell their people to think down there...

Why did the US advance and become successful and South America is still a relatively poor and underdeveloped place?
Good book i am going to buy...
Don't let the title throw you... or that i think they are all idiots...( I work with El Salvadorans that have a work ethic like nobody i have ever met...)
"Guide to the Perfect Latin American Idiot"
http://www.reason.com/news/show/27774.html

Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2009-04-19 21:00:45)

Love is the answer

2009-04-20 02:39:13

#34

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6713|'Murka

DBBrinson1 wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
President Obama said Sunday that the United States, with its overwhelming military superiority and need to improve its global image, could afford to extend such diplomatic "courtesy."
Lesson learned... sigh.

I actually see that as a bit of a backhanded comment from Obama. Not sure if he meant it that way, but it appeared humble while still telling those knuckleheads who their daddy is.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-04-20 07:01:21

#35

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6592|Éire

Obama getting chummy with another democratically elected world leader... when are they just gonna get their act together and lynch this guy?

2009-04-20 10:42:24

#36

JahManRed: wank; +646|6930|IRELAND

I'm glad to see the US government has switched to dialogue and diplomacy since Obama came in. You can reach out with one hand and keep the other fist clinched.

2009-04-20 11:16:32

#37

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6903|132 and Bush

JahManRed wrote:
I'm glad to see the US government has switched to dialogue and diplomacy since Obama came in. You can reach out with one hand and keep the other fist clinched.

That's called a sucker punch where I come from.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-04-20 20:08:05

#38

mcjagdflieger: Champion of Dueling Rectums; +26|6613|South Jersey

appeasement and sucker punches go hand in hand

2009-04-20 20:10:48

#39

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6707|North Carolina

[TUF]Catbox wrote:
Why is South America so backwards and why do they have to deal with leaders like Chavez and Castro etc?
It cant all be the US' fault... as they think... or what the leaders tell their people to think down there...

Why did the US advance and become successful and South America is still a relatively poor and underdeveloped place?
Good book i am going to buy...
Don't let the title throw you... or that i think they are all idiots...( I work with El Salvadorans that have a work ethic like nobody i have ever met...)
"Guide to the Perfect Latin American Idiot"
http://www.reason.com/news/show/27774.html

Well, as mentioned before... socialism is welcomed when what precedes it is ruthless capitalism.

2009-04-20 20:16:10

#40

ATG: Banned; +5,233|6831|Global Command

okay. Now they've met, shaken hands.
If hugo doesn't keep talking shit he loses face.

Nothing will change.

2009-04-21 02:44:45

#41

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6713|'Murka

JahManRed wrote:
I'm glad to see the US government has switched to dialogue and diplomacy since Obama came in. You can reach out with one hand and keep the other fist clinched.

The US has always engaged primarily in dialogue and diplomacy. It's not unique to Obama. Bush was very engaged with OAS...he just didn't have much to say to Cuba or Venezuela.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

BF2S Forums Chavez/Obama

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

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