The US have been giving a 'squirt of piss' about Iran ever since the Islamic revolution. Cameronpoe's post sums up the reasons behind any Iranian desire for nuclear capabilities. Just look at a map if you want proof, they are the meat filling of a Western imperialist sandwich... with a side order of Zionist aggression.FEOS wrote:
No, it was actually the other way around. Nobody gave a squirt of piss about Iran until they started their nuke program back up.Dilbert_X wrote:
Except it was Israeli and US threats and ranting which drove Iran down the nuclear route in the first place.
I didn't say it would stop, just that they wouldn't have an excuse any more.
Researching topics is fun. Try it.
Yeah the whole Islamic extremism part has nothing to do with it. Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban, ACM's and AQ really help the situation in the region. Israel hasn't really moved out of its immediate area since the last big war apart from the airstrike on Iraq's nuclear plant and Syria's. It protects itself from its immediate neighbours, and do you honestly think Israel just shoots things to stir up groups to attack them? They'd rather not have to bother with these people at all, groups who recieve support from countries like Iran and Syria and openly in Iran's case. If Israel wanted to take down Iran, it would have done it already with its nuclear arsenal, the Cold War is over, why try and restart it?CameronPoe wrote:
The west wanted Iran and the Iranian people to bend to their will, to bend over and take it in the ass as their natural resources were exploited by foreign entities for the primary benefit of foreign elites. The whole thing started with well-warranted Iranian distrust of the west, stemming from British and Russian imperial ambitions in their nation and region right through to western backing of the Shah and CIA-sponsored coups. If any oil-rich nation in this world has a cast-iron reason to acquire nukes, it's Iran. The Israeli dimension is merely a rallying call for support across the region, the 'western colony' growing like a cancerous mole on the buttock of the region.M.O.A.B wrote:
I think it was the Iranian revolution that came first, that and supporting all of the terror groups next to Israel, which caused the US and Israel (and not only them) to have a distrust of Iran.
Islamic extremism is a relatively modern phenomenon in terms of it being directed against the west. In fact, it only really got going after the CIA armed and trained the Taliban. Iran is large, proud nation deserved of parity of esteem among other nations, something it never ever received from the west. It was only ever treated with disrespect. Hezbollah are fighting a war against Israel, not the west, and have every right to (and also have every right to be annoyed with the west helping Israel and applying double standards when it comes to Israel). Hamas are fighting against Israel, not the west, and have every right to (and also have every right to be annoyed with the west helping Israel and applying double standards when it comes to Israel). The Taliban are based in Afghanistan, not Iran. Al Qaeda is not an Iranian organisation. Iran is cooperating with the international community vis a vis the home of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Iran is an Islamic nation but again that is their prerogative.M.O.A.B wrote:
Yeah the whole Islamic extremism part has nothing to do with it. Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban, ACM's and AQ really help the situation in the region. Israel hasn't really moved out of its immediate area since the last big war apart from the airstrike on Iraq's nuclear plant and Syria's. It protects itself from its immediate neighbours, and do you honestly think Israel just shoots things to stir up groups to attack them? They'd rather not have to bother with these people at all, groups who recieve support from countries like Iran and Syria and openly in Iran's case. If Israel wanted to take down Iran, it would have done it already with its nuclear arsenal, the Cold War is over, why try and restart it?
Israel on the other hand moved out of it's 'immediate area' of central and Eastern Europe (Germany, Poland, etc.) and Russia to flood a piece of land with an alien mixture of ancient-history-reliant nationalists and religious zealots to rid that piece of land of as many of the indigenous inhabitants as possible by force or otherwise with little or no regard for morality. They continued to carve out more liebensraum over the years as the natives and neighbours quite understandably revolted. We have no business in the west supporting Israel. The double standards must end. Look at Israel's current government - Avigdor Lieberman and Binyamin Netanyahu? They don't even endorse a two-state solution!!!! Fuck Israel. Our foreign policies should not serve Israel's ends in any way shape or form. They should be shunned for their contravention of UN law, for human rights violations and for their transgressions against the indigenous inhabitants of the region they occupy. Same applies to Iran.
Bottom line: Iran needs nukes as it can never ever trust Israel, the US, the UK, France or anyone else for that matter. But you wouldn't possibly understand that because you can't empathise with their position or possibly imagine that the west and Israel has anything less than squeaky clean ambitions and agendas.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-04-16 08:27:02)
Wanna point out that I ever said Israel and the west is squeaky clean? All militaries have bad elements and you mostly hear about them rather than the good aspects because that's what the media feeds on.CameronPoe wrote:
Islamic extremism is a relatively modern phenomenon in terms of it being directed against the west. In fact, it only really got going after the CIA armed and trained the Taliban. Iran is large, proud nation deserved of parity of esteem among other nations, something it never ever received from the west. It was only ever treated with disrespect. Hezbollah are fighting a war against Israel, not the west, and have every right to (and also have every right to be annoyed with the west helping Israel and applying double standards when it comes to Israel). Hamas are fighting against Israel, not the west, and have every right to (and also have every right to be annoyed with the west helping Israel and applying double standards when it comes to Israel). The Taliban are based in Afghanistan, not Iran. Al Qaeda is not an Iranian organisation. Iran is cooperating with the international community vis a vis the home of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Iran is an Islamic nation but again that is their prerogative.M.O.A.B wrote:
Yeah the whole Islamic extremism part has nothing to do with it. Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban, ACM's and AQ really help the situation in the region. Israel hasn't really moved out of its immediate area since the last big war apart from the airstrike on Iraq's nuclear plant and Syria's. It protects itself from its immediate neighbours, and do you honestly think Israel just shoots things to stir up groups to attack them? They'd rather not have to bother with these people at all, groups who recieve support from countries like Iran and Syria and openly in Iran's case. If Israel wanted to take down Iran, it would have done it already with its nuclear arsenal, the Cold War is over, why try and restart it?
Israel on the other hand moved out of it's 'immediate area' of central and Eastern Europe (Germany, Poland, etc.) and Russia to flood a piece of land with an alien mixture of ancient-history-reliant nationalists and religious zealots to rid that piece of land of as many of the indigenous inhabitants as possible by force or otherwise with little or no regard for morality. They continued to carve out more liebensraum over the years as the natives and neighbours quite understandably revolted. We have no business in the west supporting Israel. The double standards must end. Look at Israel's current government - Avigdor Lieberman and Binyamin Netanyahu? They don't even endorse a two-state solution!!!! Fuck Israel. Our foreign policies should not serve Israel's ends in any way shape or form. They should be shunned for their contravention of UN law, for human rights violations and for their transgressions against the indigenous inhabitants of the region they occupy. Same applies to Iran.
Bottom line: Iran needs nukes as it can never ever trust Israel, the US, the UK, France or anyone else for that matter. But you wouldn't possibly understand that because you can't empathise with their position or possibly imagine that the west and Israel has anything less than squeaky clean ambitions and agendas.
Iran doesn't need nuclear weapons to protect itself. If anyone else attacked them with nukes they would suffer severe backlash in many forms. Conventional warfare would be a different matter. Iran also denies it is producing them yet doesn't want anybody to see what they're up to with their nuclear program. If they want nukes, why be so secretive?
Oh yeah, and when you're surrounded on all sides by countries and groups who would like nothing better than to see you annhilated so they can have back "their" land which they previously took from the original settlers (which would be no different to the Israelis taking that land now), you develop certain hardline methods to ensure your safety. Israel has hardly any internal attacks because of its heavy security. But when a couple of rockets come flying over your border you don't sit on your ass and count them and moving in to destroy those sites is called self-defence.
And I don't emphatise with Iran's government or actions because they're like a slightly less secretive version of NK, constantly trying to antagonise others. Sending agents in to disrupt security measures in Iraq, kidnapping and murdering coalition troops, supporting terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas, developing "peaceful nuclear power", kidnapping sailors and attempting to intimidate others to the point of doctoring photographs.
I don't emphatise with the Israeli government either, but I understand their position because when you have so many people wanting to see you gone, you don't receive a few explosive payloads, then hand out daisy's and expect them to return in kind like nothing happened.
Iran very much needs something to protect itself. Israel certainly thought nuclear weapons would be a very effective method of so doing and went right ahead and procured them. As did America, the UK, France, Russia, China, India, etc. It's the best deterrent there is. Why should Iran be denied? Iran have to be quiet about it in order to make it happen. You didn't hear the US or Israel shouting about their program while they developed them. It would be idiotic to be open about it.M.O.A.B wrote:
Wanna point out that I ever said Israel and the west is squeaky clean? All militaries have bad elements and you mostly hear about them rather than the good aspects because that's what the media feeds on.
Iran doesn't need nuclear weapons to protect itself. If anyone else attacked them with nukes they would suffer severe backlash in many forms. Conventional warfare would be a different matter. Iran also denies it is producing them yet doesn't want anybody to see what they're up to with their nuclear program. If they want nukes, why be so secretive?
Oh yeah, and when you're surrounded on all sides by countries and groups who would like nothing better than to see you annhilated so they can have back "their" land which they previously took from the original settlers (which would be no different to the Israelis taking that land now), you develop certain hardline methods to ensure your safety. Israel has hardly any internal attacks because of its heavy security. But when a couple of rockets come flying over your border you don't sit on your ass and count them and moving in to destroy those sites is called self-defence.
And I don't emphatise with Iran's government or actions because they're like a slightly less secretive version of NK, constantly trying to antagonise others. Sending agents in to disrupt security measures in Iraq, kidnapping and murdering coalition troops, supporting terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas, developing "peaceful nuclear power", kidnapping sailors and attempting to intimidate others to the point of doctoring photographs.
I don't emphatise with the Israeli government either, but I understand their position because when you have so many people wanting to see you gone, you don't receive a few explosive payloads, then hand out daisy's and expect them to return in kind like nothing happened.
With respect to your rather narrow view of Israel's conduct since its birth and beforehand - you seem to think that might makes right. The fundamental core fact is that Israel as it is today is and has been wrong since its inception, especially in the context of modern enlightened civilised society. The days of gaining land and resources by force was immoral long before the birth of Israel. Israel itself IS an attack on the people of the region. It's like Aztecs fleeing Mexico and carving out a homeland in the state of Texas by ethnically cleansing it of Americans by exile or death. Of course Israel won't sit on their ass when attacked. The thing to remember is that they deserve to be attacked because justice on the Israeli issue is a long way from being served. It is also odd that we are talking about Israel in a discussion about Iranian nukes (the double standard rears its head again), but perhaps that's my fault.
'Constantly trying to antagonise others'! Iran has been constantly antagonised since the spread of the British Empire!!! What a cheek they have to want to want the nuclear deterrent! Guess what MOAB - the US just landed on either side of Iran, the same nation that backed Saddam in a war of stealth and expansion against them, that staged a coup to removed a democratically elected leader of their nation and who turned a blind eye to the abusive dictatorship of the Shah because it was in the interests of America! How shocking that they would want to deter the west from committing any other acts against them or meddle in their affairs! Your application of double standards with respect to Iran is beyond the pale.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-04-16 09:16:41)
Tell me, when did those countires listed procure their nukes? Oh yeah during the Cold War, when everyone with them was actively pointing them at their opposition and it was a necessity to have them to prevent a war. That also covers why those programs were kept a secret, to prevent an actual well-known enemy from stealing your technology to use in building a weapon. These days you could find out how to build a bomb on the internet, all you'd need is the parts. Having a nuclear arsenal now is not a necessity (seems a lot of the major powers think that as well, seeing as they're trying to call for disarmament), and its more likely to anatgonise and worry others when you try to produce one covertly while lying about it at the same time.CameronPoe wrote:
Iran very much needs something to protect itself. Israel certainly thought nuclear weapons would be a very effective method of so doing and went right ahead and procured them. As did America, the UK, France, Russia, China, India, etc. It's the best deterrent there is. Why should Iran be denied? Iran have to be quiet about it in order to make it happen. You didn't hear the US or Israel shouting about their program while they developed them. It would be idiotic to be open about it.M.O.A.B wrote:
Wanna point out that I ever said Israel and the west is squeaky clean? All militaries have bad elements and you mostly hear about them rather than the good aspects because that's what the media feeds on.
Iran doesn't need nuclear weapons to protect itself. If anyone else attacked them with nukes they would suffer severe backlash in many forms. Conventional warfare would be a different matter. Iran also denies it is producing them yet doesn't want anybody to see what they're up to with their nuclear program. If they want nukes, why be so secretive?
Oh yeah, and when you're surrounded on all sides by countries and groups who would like nothing better than to see you annhilated so they can have back "their" land which they previously took from the original settlers (which would be no different to the Israelis taking that land now), you develop certain hardline methods to ensure your safety. Israel has hardly any internal attacks because of its heavy security. But when a couple of rockets come flying over your border you don't sit on your ass and count them and moving in to destroy those sites is called self-defence.
And I don't emphatise with Iran's government or actions because they're like a slightly less secretive version of NK, constantly trying to antagonise others. Sending agents in to disrupt security measures in Iraq, kidnapping and murdering coalition troops, supporting terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas, developing "peaceful nuclear power", kidnapping sailors and attempting to intimidate others to the point of doctoring photographs.
I don't emphatise with the Israeli government either, but I understand their position because when you have so many people wanting to see you gone, you don't receive a few explosive payloads, then hand out daisy's and expect them to return in kind like nothing happened.
With respect to your rather narrow view of Israel's conduct since its birth and beforehand - you seem to think that might makes right. The fundamental core fact is that Israel as it is today is and has been wrong since its inception, especially in the context of modern enlightened civilised society. The days of gaining land and resources by force was immoral long before the birth of Israel. Israel itself IS an attack on the people of the region. It's like Aztecs fleeing Mexico and carving out a homeland in the state of Texas by ethnically cleansing it of Americans by exile or death. Of course Israel won't sit on their ass when attacked. The thing to remember is that they deserve to be attacked because justice on the Israeli issue is a long way from being served. It is also odd that we are talking about Israel in a discussion about Iranian nukes (the double standard rears its head again), but perhaps that's my fault.
'Constantly trying to antagonise others'! Iran has been constantly antagonised since the spread of the British Empire!!! What a cheek they have to want to want the nuclear deterrent! Guess what MOAB - the US just landed on either side of Iran, the same nation that backed Saddam in a war of stealth and expansion against them, that staged a coup to removed a democratically elected leader of their nation and who turned a blind eye to the abusive dictatorship of the Shah because it was in the interests of America! How shocking that they would want to deter the west from committing any other acts against them or meddle in their affairs! Your application of double standards with respect to Iran is beyond the pale.
And the argument of making it a fair playing field is a load of bullshit, the world isn't fair, if you want it that way go give the Somali pirates a nuclear suitcase or perhaps the Tamil Tigers. If Iran want's nuclear power, then it can have it, but its quite clear it isn't producing or attempting to use nuclear material for that. The Israelis having nukes as well is a different matter, partially because they are surrounded by enemies and when they got hold of the nukes they were fighting practically one war after another against multiple enemies. Iran isn't surrounded, Iran isn't being attacked and in this day and age it doesn't need a nuke. Building one nuke would be a pointless affair anyway, what would it do? Unless they plan on cooking up a 50mt one a single relatively low yield nuke wouldn't be enough to stop an attack in the first place and all it would do would create a larger retailiation.
So Iran having a nuke today is a pointless affair and their constant efforts to show the world their Über-Military with photos and videos as well as test launching missiles and covertly attempting to produce a nuclear bomb, while headed by a freakin nutjob and an even bigger religious nutjob, does nothing but create instability for the region. But of course, I guess instability is a small price just to have a slightly fairer game isn't it?
Btw, I mentioned Israel as the title includes the country.
Oh I get it - because the 'Cold War' was on the development and acquisition of nuclear weapons technology was okay but not before or after.... Tell me M.O.A.B. - just how many nuclear weapons were fired during the Cold War and just how many direct open battles between the two superpowers occurred?? Exactly: ZERO.M.O.A.B wrote:
Tell me, when did those countires listed procure their nukes? Oh yeah during the Cold War, when everyone with them was actively pointing them at their opposition and it was a necessity to have them to prevent a war. That also covers why those programs were kept a secret, to prevent an actual well-known enemy from stealing your technology to use in building a weapon. These days you could find out how to build a bomb on the internet, all you'd need is the parts. Having a nuclear arsenal now is not a necessity (seems a lot of the major powers think that as well, seeing as they're trying to call for disarmament), and its more likely to anatgonise and worry others when you try to produce one covertly while lying about it at the same time.
Having a nuclear arsenal is every bit a necessity today as it was in the Cold War because it is THE BENCHMARK in terms of modern weaponry and preventative defence. Any defence ministry of a nation worth its salt that quite justifiably feels vulnerable and threatened from militarily strong outside parties must do or say whatever it takes to progress the acquisition of nuclear weapons. It is only because we already have them that we attempt to prevent others obtaining them. We want to remain in the relative position of supreme military strength so that, if needs be, we can subjugate the will of those who wish to follow a different path than the one we in the west have deemed to be 'correct'. We aren't interested in a rich and varied world of a plurality of political, cultural and economic systems: we simply want it to be 'our way or the highway'.
You are quite patently applying double standards on a laughable scale. Israel is surrounded by enemies? What the fuck do you think Iran is surrounded by and has constantly been hounded by??????????????????? PS Newsflash: Israel are still fighting wars on an ongoing basis and probably always will. I would imagine Iran plan to produce several nuclear weapons, tens if not hundreds of them: just like us and just like Israel.M.O.A.B wrote:
And the argument of making it a fair playing field is a load of bullshit, the world isn't fair, if you want it that way go give the Somali pirates a nuclear suitcase or perhaps the Tamil Tigers. If Iran want's nuclear power, then it can have it, but its quite clear it isn't producing or attempting to use nuclear material for that. The Israelis having nukes as well is a different matter, partially because they are surrounded by enemies and when they got hold of the nukes they were fighting practically one war after another against multiple enemies. Iran isn't surrounded, Iran isn't being attacked and in this day and age it doesn't need a nuke. Building one nuke would be a pointless affair anyway, what would it do? Unless they plan on cooking up a 50mt one a single relatively low yield nuke wouldn't be enough to stop an attack in the first place and all it would do would create a larger retailiation.
Iran show these silly photos in a vain attempt to deter an outside force from launching a pre-emptive strike on their nuclear facilities. They evidently failed in a rather amateurish way. You don't think western nations use misleading information to disguise matters or in military operations?M.O.A.B wrote:
So Iran having a nuke today is a pointless affair and their constant efforts to show the world their Über-Military with photos and videos as well as test launching missiles and covertly attempting to produce a nuclear bomb, while headed by a freakin nutjob and an even bigger religious nutjob, does nothing but create instability for the region. But of course, I guess instability is a small price just to have a slightly fairer game isn't it?
Btw, I mentioned Israel as the title includes the country.
You just don't like Iran. Period. And you have absolutely no good or decent understandable reason. Unless of course you're a Zionist or support neo-imperialism. You don't understand Iran either. If you think for a moment that Iran will hang itself by firing a nuke at another nuclear power then you have a number of screws loose.
Sorry I'm not a super-expert of Iranian policy. But I'd rather make up my judgement on what the country does. Yeah I don't like Iran, I don't like what they do, they kidnapped sailors from the Navy of my country, they supplied anti-tank missiles and explosives to insurgents in Iraq that have injured and killed British troops. And the fact they hate and have threatened the west's biggest ally in the ME even when Israel has never attacked Iran directly gives a pretty clear indication of what their leaders think.CameronPoe wrote:
Oh I get it - because the 'Cold War' was on the development and acquisition of nuclear weapons technology was okay but not before or after.... Tell me M.O.A.B. - just how many nuclear weapons were fired during the Cold War and just how many direct open battles between the two superpowers occurred?? Exactly: ZERO.M.O.A.B wrote:
Tell me, when did those countires listed procure their nukes? Oh yeah during the Cold War, when everyone with them was actively pointing them at their opposition and it was a necessity to have them to prevent a war. That also covers why those programs were kept a secret, to prevent an actual well-known enemy from stealing your technology to use in building a weapon. These days you could find out how to build a bomb on the internet, all you'd need is the parts. Having a nuclear arsenal now is not a necessity (seems a lot of the major powers think that as well, seeing as they're trying to call for disarmament), and its more likely to anatgonise and worry others when you try to produce one covertly while lying about it at the same time.
Having a nuclear arsenal is every bit a necessity today as it was in the Cold War because it is THE BENCHMARK in terms of modern weaponry and preventative defence. Any defence ministry of a nation worth its salt that quite justifiably feels vulnerable and threatened from militarily strong outside parties must do or say whatever it takes to progress the acquisition of nuclear weapons. It is only because we already have them that we attempt to prevent others obtaining them. We want to remain in the relative position of supreme military strength so that, if needs be, we can subjugate the will of those who wish to follow a different path than the one we in the west have deemed to be 'correct'. We aren't interested in a rich and varied world of a plurality of political, cultural and economic systems: we simply want it to be 'our way or the highway'.You are quite patently applying double standards on a laughable scale. Israel is surrounded by enemies? What the fuck do you think Iran is surrounded by and has constantly been hounded by??????????????????? PS Newsflash: Israel are still fighting wars on an ongoing basis and probably always will. I would imagine Iran plan to produce several nuclear weapons, tens if not hundreds of them: just like us and just like Israel.M.O.A.B wrote:
And the argument of making it a fair playing field is a load of bullshit, the world isn't fair, if you want it that way go give the Somali pirates a nuclear suitcase or perhaps the Tamil Tigers. If Iran want's nuclear power, then it can have it, but its quite clear it isn't producing or attempting to use nuclear material for that. The Israelis having nukes as well is a different matter, partially because they are surrounded by enemies and when they got hold of the nukes they were fighting practically one war after another against multiple enemies. Iran isn't surrounded, Iran isn't being attacked and in this day and age it doesn't need a nuke. Building one nuke would be a pointless affair anyway, what would it do? Unless they plan on cooking up a 50mt one a single relatively low yield nuke wouldn't be enough to stop an attack in the first place and all it would do would create a larger retailiation.Iran show these silly photos in a vain attempt to deter an outside force from launching a pre-emptive strike on their nuclear facilities. They evidently failed in a rather amateurish way. You don't think western nations use misleading information to disguise matters or in military operations?M.O.A.B wrote:
So Iran having a nuke today is a pointless affair and their constant efforts to show the world their Über-Military with photos and videos as well as test launching missiles and covertly attempting to produce a nuclear bomb, while headed by a freakin nutjob and an even bigger religious nutjob, does nothing but create instability for the region. But of course, I guess instability is a small price just to have a slightly fairer game isn't it?
Btw, I mentioned Israel as the title includes the country.
You just don't like Iran. Period. And you have absolutely no good or decent understandable reason. Unless of course you're a Zionist or support neo-imperialism. You don't understand Iran either. If you think for a moment that Iran will hang itself by firing a nuke at another nuclear power then you have a number of screws loose.
And by the way, you don't like Israel, pretty much to the point of hating it with no good reason because A) You're not a Palestinian or Arab B) You haven't been shot at or blown up by the IDF.
So if you want to say I have no good reason for disliking Iran then go ahead, but it confirms you have no good reason for hating Israel.
And what exactly did they do with those sailors? Bought them crappy suits and sent them home with a presidential pardon. How cruel! What on earth fuckers from the west are doing in on near their territorial waters is of course another question... I wonder how long an Iranian boat would have lasted off the coast of Delaware.M.O.A.B wrote:
Sorry I'm not a super-expert of Iranian policy. But I'd rather make up my judgement on what the country does. Yeah I don't like Iran, I don't like what they do, they kidnapped sailors from the Navy of my country, they supplied anti-tank missiles and explosives to insurgents in Iraq that have injured and killed British troops. And the fact they hate and have threatened the west's biggest ally in the ME even when Israel has never attacked Iran directly gives a pretty clear indication of what their leaders think.
And by the way, you don't like Israel, pretty much to the point of hating it with no good reason because A) You're not a Palestinian or Arab B) You haven't been shot at or blown up by the IDF.
So if you want to say I have no good reason for disliking Iran then go ahead, but it confirms you have no good reason for hating Israel.
It is entirely understandable that they would undermine the meddling mission of nations that have aggressed indirectly in a military sense and directly in a political sense against them many many times over the decades. The west's 'biggest ally' in the ME? What planet do you live on????? What the fuck have they ever done for any of us!!!!!? They just gorge on US aid and act as a testing ground for our latest new-fangled instruments of death!! Fuck Israel: they are human rights violating expansionist scum. Why we would treat them better than Iran shows how few principles we have. And all our 'efforts' to produce peace between Israel and Palestine have been thrown out the window and over the hill by a couple of newly elected fascist cunts who don't care what we think. Fuck Israel.
I have very good reasons for not liking Israel. I've been to Israel and seen what they do. I have researched that conflict to exhaustion and my reasons are many, varied and concrete. I don't like people involved in imposing injustice on others in the interests of lebensraum and last time I checked Iran haven't went on any expansionist escapades in modern history... And in case you hadn't noticed Ireland has a long history of supporting the Palestinian cause, even at governmental level. Common cause and empathy.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-04-16 12:21:53)
Near to territorial waters (which is where they were) isn't in them. Therefore Iran has no right to kidnap the soldiers who were checking vessels for hidden weapons going to Iraq. If an Iranian ship took anchor outside of U.S territorial waters it would be monitored, but the entire crew isn't going to get pulled to shore and imprisoned before being stuck on international TV to make up a story that puts their hosts in the right. Fact of the matter is they shouldn't have kidnapped them in the first place whether they gave them suits or cut their heads off.CameronPoe wrote:
And what exactly did they do with those sailors? Bought them crappy suits and sent them home with a presidential pardon. How cruel! What on earth fuckers from the west are doing in on near their territorial waters is of course another question... I wonder how long an Iranian boat would have lasted off the coast of Delaware.M.O.A.B wrote:
Sorry I'm not a super-expert of Iranian policy. But I'd rather make up my judgement on what the country does. Yeah I don't like Iran, I don't like what they do, they kidnapped sailors from the Navy of my country, they supplied anti-tank missiles and explosives to insurgents in Iraq that have injured and killed British troops. And the fact they hate and have threatened the west's biggest ally in the ME even when Israel has never attacked Iran directly gives a pretty clear indication of what their leaders think.
And by the way, you don't like Israel, pretty much to the point of hating it with no good reason because A) You're not a Palestinian or Arab B) You haven't been shot at or blown up by the IDF.
So if you want to say I have no good reason for disliking Iran then go ahead, but it confirms you have no good reason for hating Israel.
Perhaps you also overlook the fact that Israel's intelligence service Mossad, provides western intel groups with a shitload of information from the ME. And Iran isn't exactly surrounded by enemies like Israel either. Was unaware that Russia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Pakistan and Turkey were going for their throats or have done at some point.
Now if you don't think this is funny, you can get the hell on outta here.CameronPoe wrote:
And what exactly did they do with those sailors? Bought them crappy suits and sent them home with a presidential pardon. How cruel! What on earth fuckers from the west are doing in on near their territorial waters is of course another question... I wonder how long an Iranian boat would have lasted off the coast of Delaware.M.O.A.B wrote:
Sorry I'm not a super-expert of Iranian policy. But I'd rather make up my judgement on what the country does. Yeah I don't like Iran, I don't like what they do, they kidnapped sailors from the Navy of my country, they supplied anti-tank missiles and explosives to insurgents in Iraq that have injured and killed British troops. And the fact they hate and have threatened the west's biggest ally in the ME even when Israel has never attacked Iran directly gives a pretty clear indication of what their leaders think.
And by the way, you don't like Israel, pretty much to the point of hating it with no good reason because A) You're not a Palestinian or Arab B) You haven't been shot at or blown up by the IDF.
So if you want to say I have no good reason for disliking Iran then go ahead, but it confirms you have no good reason for hating Israel.
It is entirely understandable that they would undermine the meddling mission of nations that have aggressed indirectly in a military sense and directly in a political sense against them many many times over the decades. The west's 'biggest ally' in the ME? What planet do you live on????? What the fuck have they ever done for any of us!!!!!? They just gorge on US aid and act as a testing ground for our latest new-fangled instruments of death!! Fuck Israel: they are human rights violating expansionist scum. Why we would treat them better than Iran shows how few principles we have. And all our 'efforts' to produce peace between Israel and Palestine have been thrown out the window and over the hill by a couple of newly elected fascist cunts who don't care what we think. Fuck Israel.
I have very good reasons for not liking Israel. I've been to Israel and seen what they do. I have researched that conflict to exhaustion and my reasons are many, varied and concrete. I don't like people involved in imposing injustice on others in the interests of lebensraum and last time I checked Iran haven't went on any expansionist escapades in modern history... And in case you hadn't noticed Ireland has a long history of supporting the Palestinian cause, even at governmental level. Common cause and empathy.
Possibly, possibly not. Ah, the fog of war. PS They didn't cut their heads off.M.O.A.B wrote:
Near to territorial waters (which is where they were) isn't in them. Therefore Iran has no right to kidnap the soldiers who were checking vessels for hidden weapons going to Iraq. If an Iranian ship took anchor outside of U.S territorial waters it would be monitored, but the entire crew isn't going to get pulled to shore and imprisoned before being stuck on international TV to make up a story that puts their hosts in the right. Fact of the matter is they shouldn't have kidnapped them in the first place whether they gave them suits or cut their heads off.
That is like shaking hands with the devil I'm afraid M.O.A.B. And last I heard several interns during the Bush administration were caught SPYING FOR ISRAEL ON THE US. How loyal....M.O.A.B wrote:
Perhaps you also overlook the fact that Israel's intelligence service Mossad, provides western intel groups with a shitload of information from the ME. And Iran isn't exactly surrounded by enemies like Israel either. Was unaware that Russia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Pakistan and Turkey were going for their throats or have done at some point.
Iran borders Iraq and Afghanistan, which both harbour large contingents of western troops. Israel borders Lebanon and Syria, which contain Hamas and Hezbollah. Two all.
Obviously you do, but given that very few people ever agree with your inane monotonous quasi-racist supremely bigoted and generalised rants then I guess somewhere in the region of 5 to 10 ultra-right wing morons had a bit of a laugh...lowing wrote:
Now if you don't think this is funny, you can get the hell on outta here.
Well I didn't say they cut their heads off.CameronPoe wrote:
Possibly, possibly not. Ah, the fog of war. PS They didn't cut their heads off.M.O.A.B wrote:
Near to territorial waters (which is where they were) isn't in them. Therefore Iran has no right to kidnap the soldiers who were checking vessels for hidden weapons going to Iraq. If an Iranian ship took anchor outside of U.S territorial waters it would be monitored, but the entire crew isn't going to get pulled to shore and imprisoned before being stuck on international TV to make up a story that puts their hosts in the right. Fact of the matter is they shouldn't have kidnapped them in the first place whether they gave them suits or cut their heads off.That is like shaking hands with the devil I'm afraid M.O.A.B. And last I heard several interns during the Bush administration were caught SPYING FOR ISRAEL ON THE US. How loyal....M.O.A.B wrote:
Perhaps you also overlook the fact that Israel's intelligence service Mossad, provides western intel groups with a shitload of information from the ME. And Iran isn't exactly surrounded by enemies like Israel either. Was unaware that Russia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Pakistan and Turkey were going for their throats or have done at some point.
Iran borders Iraq and Afghanistan, which both harbour large contingents of western troops. Israel borders Lebanon and Syria, which contain Hamas and Hezbollah. Two all.
But who has attacked Israel in the past? Against those who have attacked Iran?
In the Iran-Iraq war it was Iraq and the Arab League.
In the Yom Kippur it was Eqypt, Syria and Iraq.
In the Six Day it was them as well plus Jordan.
In the 48 war it was Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen as well as soldiers from Palestine.
In the grand scheme, Israel has more potential enemies surrounding it than Iran and far more reason to worry.
Israel and Iran have never engaged each other, but when a country which has been hostile vocally toward you decides it wants a nuclear weapon, you will inevitably look at what could happen and take precautions. If Iran thinks it is being threatened by possible airstrikes on their nuclear facilities by the Israelis then it seriously needs to consider why it is recieving them.
You are correct those on this, peace at any price, appeasing, govt. tit sucking, entitlement forum, mainly agree with you. Go figure.CameronPoe wrote:
Obviously you do, but given that very few people ever agree with your inane monotonous quasi-racist supremely bigoted and generalised rants then I guess somewhere in the region of 5 to 10 ultra-right wing morons had a bit of a laugh...lowing wrote:
Now if you don't think this is funny, you can get the hell on outta here.
The west is smarter than the Arabs. We get others to do our dirty work by supplying them with weapons, logistical support and money. You are being totally disingenuous if you don't think the west whole-heartedly weighed in behind Saddam Hussein on a mission of expansion they hoped would topple a regime that stole away the west's precious Iranian oil. Are you unaware of the Mossadeq coup engineered by the CIA?M.O.A.B wrote:
Well I didn't say they cut their heads off.
But who has attacked Israel in the past? Against those who have attacked Iran?
In the Iran-Iraq war it was Iraq and the Arab League.
In the Yom Kippur it was Eqypt, Syria and Iraq.
In the Six Day it was them as well plus Jordan.
In the 48 war it was Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen as well as soldiers from Palestine.
In the grand scheme, Israel has more potential enemies surrounding it than Iran and far more reason to worry.
Israel and Iran have never engaged each other, but when a country which has been hostile vocally toward you decides it wants a nuclear weapon, you will inevitably look at what could happen and take precautions. If Iran thinks it is being threatened by possible airstrikes on their nuclear facilities by the Israelis then it seriously needs to consider why it is recieving them.
Yom Kippur War: justified for reasons specified in an earlier post.
Six Day War: justified for reasons specified in an earlier post.
1948 War: justified for reasons specified in an earlier post.
You forgot the Suez crisis where western imperialist powers got Israel to invade Egypt because Egypt had the audacity to take control of their own waterway.... how rude of them.
Iran saw what happened to Iraq and know well that they risk airstrikes. This UN complaint is merely theatre. It's meaningless. What do they expect to achieve? Nothing. It's just a publicity stunt.
lol what an unexpectedly generalised and cliché-ridden right wing response... /chuckleslowing wrote:
You are correct those on this, peace at any price, appeasing, govt. tit sucking, entitlement forum, mainly agree with you. Go figure.CameronPoe wrote:
Obviously you do, but given that very few people ever agree with your inane monotonous quasi-racist supremely bigoted and generalised rants then I guess somewhere in the region of 5 to 10 ultra-right wing morons had a bit of a laugh...lowing wrote:
Now if you don't think this is funny, you can get the hell on outta here.
Wow, "YOU'RE GENERALIZING". Never saw that coming. lolCameronPoe wrote:
lol what an unexpectedly generalised and cliché-ridden right wing response... /chuckleslowing wrote:
You are correct those on this, peace at any price, appeasing, govt. tit sucking, entitlement forum, mainly agree with you. Go figure.CameronPoe wrote:
Obviously you do, but given that very few people ever agree with your inane monotonous quasi-racist supremely bigoted and generalised rants then I guess somewhere in the region of 5 to 10 ultra-right wing morons had a bit of a laugh...
I know all about the west and its involvement with Saddam. I've seen the pic of Rumsfeld shaking the guy's hand, I know about the French involvement in their nuclear program and the French engineer killed in that airstrike. I know about Suez as well where the British brought the Israelis in. I know the west does these things, but I also know that from just about day one Israel has had to fight to keep itself in existence. If Israel let's its guard down, there's no telling what would happen. Its sitting in a hornet's nest waiting to wake up, again.CameronPoe wrote:
The west is smarter than the Arabs. We get others to do our dirty work by supplying them with weapons, logistical support and money. You are being totally disingenuous if you don't think the west whole-heartedly weighed in behind Saddam Hussein on a mission of expansion they hoped would topple a regime that stole away the west's precious Iranian oil. Are you unaware of the Mossadeq coup engineered by the CIA?M.O.A.B wrote:
Well I didn't say they cut their heads off.
But who has attacked Israel in the past? Against those who have attacked Iran?
In the Iran-Iraq war it was Iraq and the Arab League.
In the Yom Kippur it was Eqypt, Syria and Iraq.
In the Six Day it was them as well plus Jordan.
In the 48 war it was Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen as well as soldiers from Palestine.
In the grand scheme, Israel has more potential enemies surrounding it than Iran and far more reason to worry.
Israel and Iran have never engaged each other, but when a country which has been hostile vocally toward you decides it wants a nuclear weapon, you will inevitably look at what could happen and take precautions. If Iran thinks it is being threatened by possible airstrikes on their nuclear facilities by the Israelis then it seriously needs to consider why it is recieving them.
Yom Kippur War: justified for reasons specified in an earlier post.
Six Day War: justified for reasons specified in an earlier post.
1948 War: justified for reasons specified in an earlier post.
You forgot the Suez crisis where western imperialist powers got Israel to invade Egypt because Egypt had the audacity to take control of their own waterway.... how rude of them.
Iran saw what happened to Iraq and know well that they risk airstrikes. This UN complaint is merely theatre. It's meaningless. What do they expect to achieve? Nothing. It's just a publicity stunt.
They've had to fight to expand and to maintain their lebensraum. People who inflict injustice generally have to keep fighting for as long as that injustice remains unredressed or all those who have been aggrieved are utterly vanquished or irreparably weakened.M.O.A.B wrote:
I know all about the west and its involvement with Saddam. I've seen the pic of Rumsfeld shaking the guy's hand, I know about the French involvement in their nuclear program and the French engineer killed in that airstrike. I know about Suez as well where the British brought the Israelis in. I know the west does these things, but I also know that from just about day one Israel has had to fight to keep itself in existence. If Israel let's its guard down, there's no telling what would happen. Its sitting in a hornet's nest waiting to wake up, again.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-04-16 13:05:56)
You didn't? Because it's what's on everyone's mind when they read any your posts fyi...lowing wrote:
Wow, "YOU'RE GENERALIZING". Never saw that coming. lol
I realize this, mainly in lieu of a real argument.CameronPoe wrote:
You didn't? Because it's what's on everyone's mind when they read any your posts fyi...lowing wrote:
Wow, "YOU'RE GENERALIZING". Never saw that coming. lol
my other favorites
you're a racist
you're a Nazi
you're source sucks
you're a bigot
Sound familar? None of which actually counters an argument
FYI
They don't really sound familiar to me, but I'm sure they sound familiar to you. I wonder why?lowing wrote:
I realize this, mainly in lieu of a real argument.
my other favorites
you're a racist
you're a Nazi
you're source sucks
you're a bigot
Sound familar? None of which actually counters an argument
FYI
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-04-16 13:12:45)
"Obviously you do, but given that very few people ever agree with your inane monotonous quasi-RACIST supremely BIGOTED and GENERALISED rants then I guess somewhere in the region of 5 to 10 ultra-right wing morons had a bit of a laugh"CameronPoe wrote:
They don't really sound familiar to me, but I'm sure they sound familiar to you. I wonder why?lowing wrote:
I realize this, mainly in lieu of a real argument.
my other favorites
you're a racist
you're a Nazi
you're source sucks
you're a bigot
Sound familar? None of which actually counters an argument
FYI
I am not responsible for your short term memory loss.
I mean that I don't really have to deal with such responses to my posts, whereas you probably do and justifiably so. Isn't there a thread about black benefit collecting Muslims being sent to obscure rural regions of Pakistan to have sex with 10 year olds whilst drinking human blood you should be posting in...?lowing wrote:
"Obviously you do, but given that very few people ever agree with your inane monotonous quasi-RACIST supremely BIGOTED and GENERALISED rants then I guess somewhere in the region of 5 to 10 ultra-right wing morons had a bit of a laugh"
I am not responsible for your short term memory loss.