Some may argue that Germany only recovered from their last major recession because the West injected so much cash into their economy and that is a fair point. Despite this they have always been considered a strong, able and, more importantly, a sensible economy whom I'd rather take advice from than nations that have taken a incautious advantage of the boom era.
Today I read a rather interesting article in the local Norwegian newspaper concerning the state of the economy and the mistakes countries like Britian, America, etc are making by injecting massive amounts of cash blind to the problems it will cause in the long run. The writer, a professor at Oxford, argued that Germany are in the best position to lead the world out of a recession because of their history in being in complete financial ruin yet being diligently able to re-stablize their economy and at the same time become one of the most powerful countries in Europe. It's already noticeable how they've taken charge in holding the hand of Eastern Europe to try and maintain Europe's wealth through trade etc., while the rest of world, imo, are heading into a direction of complete unknown not knowing exactly what they will spend their 10s of billions on. He also argued that the German mentality of extreme caution and discipline has prepared them for the recession considering how careful house buyers were compared to the rest of the West as a result of the history.
Some may argue that Germany only recovered from their last major recession because the West injected so much cash into their economy and that is a fair point. Despite this they have always been considered a strong, able and, more importantly, a sensible economy whom I'd rather take advice from than nations that have taken a incautious advantage of the boom era.
Some may argue that Germany only recovered from their last major recession because the West injected so much cash into their economy and that is a fair point. Despite this they have always been considered a strong, able and, more importantly, a sensible economy whom I'd rather take advice from than nations that have taken a incautious advantage of the boom era.
Germany doesn't have the economic might that China does, the country that Britain and America are relying on to lead them out of this global recession. Unless Germany has a few trillion tucked away, which they don't, what good are they?
Last edited by AussieReaper (2009-03-31 01:15:24)

He hasn't argued that countries rely on Germany for cash but rather for guidance which I think is a fair point.
"because of their history in being in complete financial ruin yet being diligently able to re-stablize their economy and at the same time become one of the most powerful countries in Europe."..teddy..jimmy wrote:
He hasn't argued that countries rely on Germany for cash but rather for guidance which I think is a fair point.
Japan did the same after WW2. It was through mass industrialisation. How is mass industrialisation going to help the global economies already in huge debt?
The German approach is actually to ride out the crisis, much the same as the French proposal. Against this train of though is China, America, Britain, Australia and the International Monetary Fund.
Your advice is to, sit and wait it out like Germany?

My advice to be more cautious. As far as I see it leaders are blindly spending cash and increasing their own debt to the point of ridicule. Obv tax payers money helps but where are they getting the money from? Printing more money only leads to inflation which Germany experienced and I'm sure it will happen.AussieReaper wrote:
"because of their history in being in complete financial ruin yet being diligently able to re-stablize their economy and at the same time become one of the most powerful countries in Europe."..teddy..jimmy wrote:
He hasn't argued that countries rely on Germany for cash but rather for guidance which I think is a fair point.
Japan did the same after WW2. It was through mass industrialisation. How is mass industrialisation going to help the global economies already in huge debt?
The German approach is actually to ride out the crisis, much the same as the French proposal. Against this train of though is China, America, Britain, Australia and the International Monetary Fund.
Your advice is to, sit and wait it out like Germany?
Gordon Brown boasts of his great plans to get the economy back on the track but it seems like a complete mess to me. Roosevelt did the same and, tbh, the American economy never did recover until a war came and saved it.
... and if Europe are going to inject atleast increase funds flowing to Eastern Europe. I think people underestimate the impact their faltering economies will have especially considering most of them rely on the Euro and the Euro relies on them.
Fair point but how is violently increasing your debt going to help global economies already in huge debt.It was through mass industrialisation. How is mass industrialisation going to help the global economies already in huge debt?
Last edited by ..teddy..jimmy (2009-03-31 01:33:59)
Caution is a prudent step, but is also imo the wrong one. Action is needed now, to get credit flowing and banks lending. Being cautious is akin to watching a train wreck and not hitting the breaks...teddy..jimmy wrote:
My advice to be more cautious. As far as I see it leaders are blindly spending cash and increasing their own debt to the point of ridicule. Obv tax payers money helps but where are they getting the money from? Printing more money only leads to inflation which Germany experienced and I'm sure it will happen.
Gordon Brown boasts of his great plans to get the economy back on the track but it seems like a complete mess to me. Roosevelt did the same and, tbh, the American economy never did recover until a war came and saved it.
... and if Europe are going to inject atleast increase funds flowing to Eastern Europe. I think people underestimate the impact their faltering economies will have especially considering most of them rely on the Euro and the Euro relies on them.Fair point but how is violently increasing your debt going to help global economies already in huge debt.It was through mass industrialisation. How is mass industrialisation going to help the global economies already in huge debt?
Blindly spending cash is how you get out of a recession, I'd argue for the most part it hasn't been blind, unfortunately going into debt is the price you pay. It is either that or your dollar value plummets and you go into a depression with huge numbers of people unemployable. Debt can be paid back. Pulling an economy out of a depression is in comparison lethal.
Yes, printing money is a terrible option. But that isn't what is happening any more (apart from in the US). They are trying to get money from China, the economy best suited to bailout foreign banks. It's proposed that China help the flow of money to Eastern Europe, where it is needed.
Good point. At the moment something like $2.5 trillion is owed by the US to China. But had they printed that money, can you imagine the value of an American dollar? The debt is ultimately going into the banks which have crippled the economy. In the good times debt can be re-paid. You don't get to see good times if you spiral down the path of a worthless dollar and depression. The debt is a necessary evil, and the less of two evils...teddy..jimmy wrote:
Fair point but how is violently increasing your debt going to help global economies already in huge debt.
Last edited by AussieReaper (2009-03-31 02:04:46)

AussieReaper wrote:
Caution is a prudent step, but is also imo the wrong one. Action is needed now, to get credit flowing and banks lending. Being cautious is akin to watching a train wreck and not hitting the breaks...teddy..jimmy wrote:
My advice to be more cautious. As far as I see it leaders are blindly spending cash and increasing their own debt to the point of ridicule. Obv tax payers money helps but where are they getting the money from? Printing more money only leads to inflation which Germany experienced and I'm sure it will happen.
Gordon Brown boasts of his great plans to get the economy back on the track but it seems like a complete mess to me. Roosevelt did the same and, tbh, the American economy never did recover until a war came and saved it.
... and if Europe are going to inject atleast increase funds flowing to Eastern Europe. I think people underestimate the impact their faltering economies will have especially considering most of them rely on the Euro and the Euro relies on them.Fair point but how is violently increasing your debt going to help global economies already in huge debt.It was through mass industrialisation. How is mass industrialisation going to help the global economies already in huge debt?
Blindly spending cash is how you get out of a recession, I'd argue for the most part it hasn't been blind, unfortunately going into debt is the price you pay. It is either that or your dollar value plummets and you go into a depression with huge numbers of people unemployable. Debt can be paid back. Pulling an economy out of a depression is in comparison lethal.
Yes, printing money is a terrible option. But that isn't what is happening any more (apart from in the US). They are trying to get money from China, the economy best suited to bailout foreign banks. It's proposed that China help the flow of money to Eastern Europe, where it is needed.Good point. At the moment something like $2.5 trillion is owed by the US to China. But had they printed that money, can you imagine the value of an American dollar? The debt is ultimately going into the banks which have crippled the economy. In the good times debt can be re-paid. You don't get to see good times if you spiral down the path of a worthless dollar and depression. The debt is a necessary evil, and the less of two evils...teddy..jimmy wrote:
Fair point but how is violently increasing your debt going to help global economies already in huge debt.
Printing more money may certainly be a reality; here and here. America does it and I'm sure several countries will follow. Huge fiscal stimulus plans results in desperate measures and these are certainly desperate measures.Yes, printing money is a terrible option. But that isn't what is happening any more (apart from in the US). They are trying to get money from China, the economy best suited to bailout foreign banks. It's proposed that China help the flow of money to Eastern Europe, where it is needed.
China, imo, is risky. I read an interesting article in The Economist about their position and although I agree that they will be one of our only options, I'm sure they will soon need to concentrate their cash on their own economy judging from the impact the crisis will have on them.
I doubt very much that China will increase any cash flow to Eastern Europe because, out of all honestly, what's in it for them? One thing's for sure. They won't be the saints and will be acting entirely out of self-interest.
Last edited by ..teddy..jimmy (2009-03-31 02:31:10)
What's in it for China? If the rest of the world goes under, they are not going to be able to sustain themselves. They are reliant on foreign imports in minerals and raw goods, and very reliant on exports. If that dries up they are in as bad shape as we are. It is in their best interests to see the world recover, and continue to trade strongly with the rest of the world...teddy..jimmy wrote:
Printing more money may certainly be a reality; here and here. America does it and I'm sure several countries will follow. Huge fiscal stimulus plans results in desperate measures and these are certainly desperate measures.
China, imo, is risky. I read an interesting article in The Economist about their position and although I agree that they will be one of our only options, I'm sure they will soon need to concentrate their cash on their own economy judging from the impact the crisis will have on them.
I doubt very much that China will increase any cash flow to Eastern Europe because, out of all honestly, what's in it for them? One thing's for sure. They won't be the saints and will be acting entirely out of self-interest.
If China does go down in the future, it will be much easier to pay back any debts owed to them. They will have a greater need for money, and would request the loans to be paid back sooner than agreed upon. Then it becomes the foreign nations turn to change the amount owed and interest rates as they see fit. Bargain, diplomacy and trade is never one sided forever.
The crisis has less impact on them, if the rest of the world isn't as adversely affected. What real reason would they have to not help?

You have to look at it realistically. Western economies will have and probably will cut down exports substantially.AussieReaper wrote:
What's in it for China? If the rest of the world goes under, they are not going to be able to sustain themselves. They are reliant on foreign imports in minerals and raw goods, and very reliant on exports. If that dries up they are in as bad shape as we are. It is in their best interests to see the world recover, and continue to trade strongly with the rest of the world...teddy..jimmy wrote:
Printing more money may certainly be a reality; here and here. America does it and I'm sure several countries will follow. Huge fiscal stimulus plans results in desperate measures and these are certainly desperate measures.
China, imo, is risky. I read an interesting article in The Economist about their position and although I agree that they will be one of our only options, I'm sure they will soon need to concentrate their cash on their own economy judging from the impact the crisis will have on them.
I doubt very much that China will increase any cash flow to Eastern Europe because, out of all honestly, what's in it for them? One thing's for sure. They won't be the saints and will be acting entirely out of self-interest.
If China does go down in the future, it will be much easier to pay back any debts owed to them. They will have a greater need for money, and would request the loans to be paid back sooner than agreed upon. Then it becomes the foreign nations turn to change the amount owed and interest rates as they see fit. Bargain, diplomacy and trade is never one sided forever.
The crisis has less impact on them, if the rest of the world isn't as adversely affected. What real reason would they have to not help?
As a result, it will have an impact on China in the long run.The crisis has less impact on them
Therefore, they can't go around spending copious amounts of cash. Yes, they will be injecting cash into places like America and the UK because it's in their best interests. But I very much doubt Eastern Europe will be a hot spot considering China too will need to spend on their own economy, on America's economy and on other major European economies. Therefore, it's not in their best interests. Considering other European leaders are hesitant in supporting Eastern Europe because they simply can't afford it, Germany will have to do it. Germany can do it as a result of being relatively cautious over the last few boom years and not taking too many risks. Risks obv need to be taken but I say look to Germany for guidance considering they've been through it before and have come out better than most in this crisis.
Last edited by ..teddy..jimmy (2009-03-31 02:53:07)
Screw taking lessons on capitalism from the last 'Marxist' nation on Earth.
I'd rather take the lessons from Germany thanks.
I'd rather take the lessons from Germany thanks.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
What teddy is saying Aussie is that throwing money at a financial screwup thinking that will make it okay is a little farfetched ... I have read a great deal about how different nations are currently trying to solve their problems in this way and very few of them have taken the time to analyze the situation thoroughly ... Germany is one of the few taking a step back to overlook and analyze before they spend billions ...Flecco wrote:
Screw taking lessons on capitalism from the last 'Marxist' nation on Earth.
I'd rather take the lessons from Germany thanks.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Far fetched?
The reason the crisis is ongoing atm is banks are still not lending due to bad debts. These debts have been dubbed toxic assets and the sooner they are bought the sooner the banks will have the confidence to lend and borrow from each other as they should be doing. How is that far fetched?
The reason the crisis is ongoing atm is banks are still not lending due to bad debts. These debts have been dubbed toxic assets and the sooner they are bought the sooner the banks will have the confidence to lend and borrow from each other as they should be doing. How is that far fetched?

Jermany is good at getting out of recessions only because they understand that work will make you free.
Reaps, it does come off as a bit of a knee-jerk reaction especially as Obama/Rudd/Brown have all basically told the opposition in the Parliaments of each respective country that THEY HAVE TO PASS THE BILL RIGHT NOW ZOMG NO DISCUSSION ITS A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF GOVERNMENT MONEY BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE A DAY OR TWO TO DEBATE OR DISCUSS YOU MUST PASS IT RIGHT NOW AND IF YOU DON'T YOU WANT THE ECONOMY TO FAIL AND DIE AND THE WORLD WILL COME TO AN END!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!one!!!11!!!!!!!!!!!!!1eleven!!!11!!!!!!!
I agree with the acting quickly part, but saying there's not even time for a week or two of debate over such massive spending? Get the fuck out.
I agree with the acting quickly part, but saying there's not even time for a week or two of debate over such massive spending? Get the fuck out.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
What? lol
There is going to be time to debate the whole thing. That's the purpose of the G20 meeting. That is why Rudd is in London right now. That is why other world leaders are in London, right now. To debate where to go from here.
There is going to be time to debate the whole thing. That's the purpose of the G20 meeting. That is why Rudd is in London right now. That is why other world leaders are in London, right now. To debate where to go from here.

Wasn't Germany pulled out because of a "War based economy" aswell? I dunno much about the German revival after the first World War, but it was something along the lines of that right? Same with the USA and how World War 2 greatly revamped its economy.
The only countries doing massive bailouts are the US and the UK, I think I heard Spain and Japan doing a few and maybe there is a couple of other countries, hardly "the rest of the world" eh, tedjims?
Germany is in a better position than China that's for sure, just for the pure fact that Germany isn't completely reliant on exports. You know, they actually have an internal economy too. China seems to be Communism on the inside and Capitalism on the outside, they're already seeing job losses in the millions (all those people working in red ball factory's etc.. ) and if it wasn't for their iron fist single party totalitarian government you'd probably see a much more bleak outlook for the PRC but right now all you're seeing is what they want everyone to see
The only countries doing massive bailouts are the US and the UK, I think I heard Spain and Japan doing a few and maybe there is a couple of other countries, hardly "the rest of the world" eh, tedjims?
Germany is in a better position than China that's for sure, just for the pure fact that Germany isn't completely reliant on exports. You know, they actually have an internal economy too. China seems to be Communism on the inside and Capitalism on the outside, they're already seeing job losses in the millions (all those people working in red ball factory's etc.. ) and if it wasn't for their iron fist single party totalitarian government you'd probably see a much more bleak outlook for the PRC but right now all you're seeing is what they want everyone to see
Mekstizzle wrote:
Wasn't Germany pulled out because of a "War based economy" aswell? I dunno much about the German revival after the first World War, but it was something along the lines of that right? Same with the USA and how World War 2 greatly revamped its economy.
The only countries doing massive bailouts are the US and the UK, I think I heard Spain and Japan doing a few and maybe there is a couple of other countries, hardly "the rest of the world" eh, tedjims?
Germany is in a better position than China that's for sure, just for the pure fact that Germany isn't completely reliant on exports. You know, they actually have an internal economy too. China seems to be Communism on the inside and Capitalism on the outside, they're already seeing job losses in the millions (all those people working in red ball factory's etc.. ) and if it wasn't for their iron fist single party totalitarian government you'd probably see a much more bleak outlook for the PRC but right now all you're seeing is what they want everyone to see
That was the situation prior and during WWII. When they were defeated the nation was absolutely broke and needed to re-build itself once more and did so very successfully.Wasn't Germany pulled out because of a "War based economy" aswell? I dunno much about the German revival after the first World War, but it was something along the lines of that right? Same with the USA and how World War 2 greatly revamped its economy.
That's correct. The US never really recovered until WWII because Roosevelt had spent so much.
You know what I mean so f u mek"the rest of the world" eh, tedjims
Remember the last stimulus package in Aus? $40 billion is REAL money for Australia. When the opposition forced a debate on the bill in the Senate by blocking it with Xenophon and the Greens they were accused of wanting the economy to fail. Wtf was that?AussieReaper wrote:
What? lol
There is going to be time to debate the whole thing. That's the purpose of the G20 meeting. That is why Rudd is in London right now. That is why other world leaders are in London, right now. To debate where to go from here.
Remember the threats of martial law in certain districts if Obama's package wasn't passed?
That's what I'm referring to, not the G20 meeting.
@ Moks, the G20 meeting will see Brown, Obama and Rudd trying to flog the idea of dumping government money into short term schemes to pull the economies out of recession and buying up shitty assets/banks to the major economic powers of the world. More caution is needed.
@ Teddy/Jimmy...
The Marshall Plan went a long way toward pulling the West German economy out of recession. The Truman Doctrine in general was very good to Europe as far as economic stimulus went.
Last edited by Flecco (2009-03-31 05:12:26)
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Flecco wrote:
@ Teddy/Jimmy...
The Marshall Plan went a long way toward pulling the West German economy out of recession. The Truman Doctrine in general was very good to Europe as far as economic stimulus went.
You're right. It did great things for Germany, re-built their economy but more importantly they were able to build a smart, sensible and stable economy. They could have fucked up so many times but instead they have one of the best reputed global economies.teddyjimmyOP wrote:
Some may argue that Germany only recovered from their last major recession because the West injected so much cash into their economy and that is a fair point. Despite this they have always been considered a strong, able and, more importantly, a sensible economy whom I'd rather take advice from than nations that have taken a incautious advantage of the boom era.
Pretty much. Probably should read the other posts in the thread before commenting...teddy..jimmy wrote:
Flecco wrote:
@ Teddy/Jimmy...
The Marshall Plan went a long way toward pulling the West German economy out of recession. The Truman Doctrine in general was very good to Europe as far as economic stimulus went.You're right. It did great things for Germany, re-built their economy but more importantly they were able to build a smart, sensible and stable economy. They could have fucked up so many times but instead they have one of the best reputed global economies.teddyjimmyOP wrote:
Some may argue that Germany only recovered from their last major recession because the West injected so much cash into their economy and that is a fair point. Despite this they have always been considered a strong, able and, more importantly, a sensible economy whom I'd rather take advice from than nations that have taken a incautious advantage of the boom era.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
I think he's in love with the German economy...

How's that a problem given that it's a robust, strong and well managed economy.AussieReaper wrote:
I think he's in love with the German economy...
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
But it isn't going to be helping anyone. And following it's steps of softly, softly does nothing.

will tbh it is pretty awesome if you think about how many times they've fucked upAussieReaper wrote:
I think he's in love with the German economy...
Maybe we should be looking at restructuring our economy internally so we can survive on our own if needed. Maybe we shouldn't be putting all our eggs in China's basket. Maybe we shouldn't be trusting the word of a single-party despotic state for an accurate assessment of their economic situation which could be far worse than they say it is. Maybe we shouldn't be trusting China to take over as the world's greatest power economically as they have already proven they don't give two shits about the environment and for them to continue industrialising and expanding their economy at the rate they are doing it will permanently fuck the world over.AussieReaper wrote:
But it isn't going to be helping anyone. And following it's steps of softly, softly does nothing.
Maybe the English speaking world's leaders are rushing into something without having clearly thought about the long term consequences.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.