BF2S Forums Devalued Prime Minister in a Delavued Government

His speech was interesting and well made. It had some very valid points. The typical Tory line about national debt was, as usual, nonsense. The debt of the UK is not very high, particularly when compared with economies of similar levels - except China;

UK debt: 43% GDP
US debt: 72.5% GDP
Japan debt: 194% GDP
Germany debt: 64.9% GDP

With China those are the top 5 economies in the world. The UK isn't doing too badly in terms of debt - which is where this guys argument kinda falls down. These figures are from 2007 though and now including recession borrowing forecasts the UK's level of debt will be almost up to that of Germany!

AussieReaper wrote:

Wait until you see the result of the G20 meeting before thinking Britain will change to the Euro (although I think it is inevitable that they make the switch).

And I thought you were making perfect sense until you said that.

It's not gonna happen. Not in the next 20 years at the very least.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2009-03-27 12:25:42)

usmarine wrote:

He made some very good points that apply to both our countries.

Shame that 75% of it is, well, wrong.

Turquoise wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

usmarine wrote:

He made some very good points that apply to both our countries.

Shame that 75% of it is, well, wrong.

What parts would you say are wrong?

0:30 for a start.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Shame that 75% of it is, well, wrong.

What parts would you say are wrong?

0:30 for a start.

the U.K. hasn't nationalized banks or the car industry?

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

0:30 for a start.

the U.K. hasn't nationalized banks or the car industry?

The UK has nationalised ONE bank and ZERO car manufacturers.

and not subsidised either?

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

The UK has nationalised ONE bank and ZERO car manufacturers.

and not subsidised either?

They have lent money to a whole host of different sectors, yes. That's a whole different thing to subsidy or nationalisation.

yes but he mentioned both words before he gave the examples..... maybe he mashed them together incorrectly?

destruktion_6143 wrote:

well then. not the most accurate speech, but charismatic nontheless! and thats what matters!!

erm...still have seen no hard data yet posted to prove he was wrong....

destruktion_6143 wrote:

where are the hard data proving he is right?

i never said he was right or wrong (about the UK).  have at it either way then.

Last edited by usmarine (2009-03-27 17:18:02)

usmarine wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

usmarine wrote:

and not subsidised either?

They have lent money to a whole host of different sectors, yes. That's a whole different thing to subsidy or nationalisation.

yes but he mentioned both words before he gave the examples..... maybe he mashed them together incorrectly?

Neither word is correct.

The government lending money to a company (which it expects to get back) is neither 'subsidising' nor 'nationalising' that company.

One bank has been temporarily nationalised. That's all.


His statement "you have subsidised, where you have not nationalised, swathes of our economy, including the car industry and many of the banks" is factually incorrect.

One is not 'many'.
Loans are not 'subsidy'.
And they've not been loaning money to 'swathes' of the economy, just small parts.

ok....

taken from various sources so bare with me.

"British banking stocks soared Wednesday after the government announced a 50 billion pound (US$88 billion) plan to partly nationalize major banks and promised to guarantee a further 250 billion pounds"

"Prime Minister Gordon Brown billed it as a "radical" plan to stabilize banks so that they could resume normal lending and other operations, rather than trying to buy up bad assets as the United States is doing. "All these are investments being made by the government which will earn a proper return for the taxpayer"

"Under the British government plan, the Treasury said that it will offer to buy up to 50 billion pounds worth of preference shares from at least eight of the county's largest banks and building societies, including HBOS PLC, Barclays PLC and Royal Bank of Scotland. The investment will give taxpayers a share stake in many of the country's biggest banks."

usmarine wrote:

ok....

taken from various sources so bare with me.

"British banking stocks soared Wednesday after the government announced a 50 billion pound (US$88 billion) plan to partly nationalize major banks and promised to guarantee a further 250 billion pounds"

"Prime Minister Gordon Brown billed it as a "radical" plan to stabilize banks so that they could resume normal lending and other operations, rather than trying to buy up bad assets as the United States is doing. "All these are investments being made by the government which will earn a proper return for the taxpayer"

"Under the British government plan, the Treasury said that it will offer to buy up to 50 billion pounds worth of preference shares from at least eight of the county's largest banks and building societies, including HBOS PLC, Barclays PLC and Royal Bank of Scotland. The investment will give taxpayers a share stake in many of the country's biggest banks."

That is neither subsidisation nor nationalisation.

The government just owns more of some banks shares than it previously did (because the government has always owned shares in the major banks).

usmarine wrote:

ok....

taken from various sources so bare with me.

"British banking stocks soared Wednesday after the government announced a 50 billion pound (US$88 billion) plan to partly nationalize major banks and promised to guarantee a further 250 billion pounds"

"Prime Minister Gordon Brown billed it as a "radical" plan to stabilize banks so that they could resume normal lending and other operations, rather than trying to buy up bad assets as the United States is doing. "All these are investments being made by the government which will earn a proper return for the taxpayer"

"Under the British government plan, the Treasury said that it will offer to buy up to 50 billion pounds worth of preference shares from at least eight of the county's largest banks and building societies, including HBOS PLC, Barclays PLC and Royal Bank of Scotland. The investment will give taxpayers a share stake in many of the country's biggest banks."

To be honest, that does sound better than what we're doing.

Here, we've lent to corporations but not nationalized, which means that we're essentially socializing losses while privatizing gains.

Via nationalization, more money is given back to the government, so that more of a payoff is available for taxpayers.

It's hardly a perfect solution, but it might prove to be a better move than ours.

hmm...

ok.  Next one pls.