Commie Killer
Member
+192|6690
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

Background
Behind a guise of friendship, there are preparations for war. Russian claims of renewed want for nuclear disarmament, help in Afghanistan, and Chinese pledges of greater cooperation between our navies. While all this is going on, the Chinese are harassing our Navy in the South China Sea, Russia pressured Kyrgyzstan to shut down a US Airbase, and now is looking at the possibility of stationing bombers in our backyard.
i.    Biden says Obama will be tested in first 6 months
ii.    Kyrgyzstan Shuts Down US Base In What is a Major Diplomatic Victory for Russia
iii.    Russia may help US in Afghanistan
iv.    NK Plans rocket launch
v.    NK Threatens Safety of Civilian Airliners
vi.    War Warning
vii.    Russia Wants Nuclear Disarmament
viii.    US eyes Iran for Use for Resupply of Afghan Forces
ix.    5 Chinese Ships Harass US Intelligence Trawler
x.    US-China pledge to reduce tensions, increase cooperation
xi.    Japan May Shoot Down NK Missile
xii.    Russian Bombers may be Stationed in Cuba/Venezuela

All of this separately would be innocuous, at most, slightly disturbing, but put all these things together and it doesn’t look so innocent any more. We have escalating tensions on the Korean peninsula, while at the same time the countries that would benefit most from a conflict there are finally acting the way we want (generally). If there is conflict, which seems likely, the forces arrayed to oppose it would be rather weak. A conflict based solely on Korea has been expected for decades, but never materialized. The ROK and limited US forces based in country would most likely be enough by themselves to slow an advance by the DPRK forces until the time when reinforcement would arrive, but because of current commitments to both Iraq and Afghanistan, the readably deployable forces are rather weak. Most likely enough to stop the attack, but leave nothing else to prevent other actions. The “other actions” will be covered in the “Coinciding Events” section.

Scenarios

Between April 4-8, the DPRK will launch a single Taepodong-2 ICBM.

a.    Scenario A

The missile will be destroyed in the course of its flight, possibly from an interception, or possibly done intentionally by DPRK forces to frame the West, ROK, and Japan. As promised if the missile is destroyed, a full scale DPRK assault into the ROK will be launched.



b.    Scenario B

The ICBM will be launched successfully, and the payload will be put into a orbit mimicking that of a failed satellite launch. In reality, it is a nuclear warhead in a slowly decaying orbit that will be detonated at high altitude over the continental United States. Following this there will be a full scale DPRK assault into the ROK. Because the warhead was exploded at high altitude, US electronic systems will be negated; there would be no more early warning systems, communications, power, etc. The United States would come to a complete and utter halt. The entire United States would be paralyzed, not to mention the political and economy implications this would have.

1.    Scenario B, Option A

It is possible that this time of blinded US sensors, impaired communications, and confusion could be used for a disarming first strike by either Russia or China against US bomber bases, ICBM silos, harbors which support Ohio class subs, and facilities which support the heads of government. By using only part of their arsenals, they would hold the ability to completely annihilate the rest of the US if we so chose to launch a retaliatory attack. This Option is considered highly unlikely.

2.    Scenario B, Option B

Assuming that the single detonation is the culmination of the attack, the US would be unable to respond in kind. The US does not have a FOBS style system, and a attack with one would be rather ineffective on the primitive DPRK society. The lack of electronic devises in everyday life would not affect the average citizen much, and the government would likely be able to still function because of the tight control it holds over the population. Taking this all into account, there are now only two options left, conventional warfare, or nuclear attacks on ground targets.
    A nuclear attack against a ground target would be met with widespread criticism and extremely negative world opinion. The DPRK’s high altitude detonation would have not directly harmed any civilians or military personnel, and a counter strike that did would not be looked upon favorably.
    The only viable option left would be conventional warfare. Up until recently, the US Armed forces were designed so they could (on paper), fight two regional conflicts, and 1 major conflict at the same time. The ability to do this in reality is highly questionable. Just to support the forces in Iraq and Afghanistan the US Air Mobility Command has been stretched. If Russia exerts pressure on NATO forces in Afghanistan by cutting off the main route of resupply, it would become unlikely that the US would be able to support Afghanistan and Iraq, leaving nothing for the movement of troops, equipment, and supplies to Korea or other hot spots.


Speculation as to the Reasons Behind Brewing Conflict

Both Russia and China have been hurt harder then most by the economic crisis and often in times like these leaders will attempt to turn their problems outward. Both would benefit greatly from conflict on the Korean peninsula. Just recently, in August 2008, Russia invaded Georgia under the cover of the Olympics. A conflict in Korea would leave Russia or China free to do as they please, and a possible Chinese dump of American assets would utterly destroy what is remaining of the American economy and give the Chinese a chance to rebuild their economy in a self sufficient manner. Also, with Russia’s large reserves of both oil and natural gas, western Europe would not be inclined to interfere because of the risk of losing their fuel supplies and further destruction of their economies.

Coinciding Events

As previously mentioned, a conflict on the Korean peninsula would leave both Russia and China generally free to do as they wish. There are multiple things that may happen along with the Korean conflict, everything from unofficial, back channel aid, too open military support. Most likely would be Russian pressure upon the NATO forces in Afghanistan, creating a very difficult resupply situation, and possibly forcing a withdrawal. In Europe we may see Russian pressure upon the Eastern European and Crimean states including that of a full scale invasion under the guise of “defense” against the ABM defenses being set up (even though these missiles will not effect any launch against the continental US), or to prevent their admission to NATO. A European response to either of these is unlikely as oil and gas supplies would be cut off, and the difficulties of moving and supporting Western European forces in Eastern Europe. In South East Asia the PRC may attempt to secure the disputed territories in the South China Sea area as is evident by their recent build up of forces in that area, also, this would serve as a diversion of US Navy forces from Korea. Finally, in an attempt to divert further US assets, Russia may station Tu-95s in Venezuela and Cuba, the US would be forced to move some AWAC’s, tankers, and fighters down south to intercept these and alleviate public fears.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

Might want to get the title of the topic changed...


My suggestion would be to 'Just a feeling I get... (war)' or something.


Or a crowd pleaser to draw the punters in like 'Israel bombs Iran'.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6851|San Diego, CA, USA
This all seems too well coordinated.  I doubt China would shoot themselves in foot to cripple their economy.  Putin, grated, has and will always be KGB, could not be this devious.

Maybe I'm wrong ("Never underestimate your enemy), and because we now have a Europeanized American president that all could happen; I don't know.

This sounds like something I would hear on Art Bell's Coast-to-Coast.  Were's my tin-foil hat?  But then again, a broken clock is right twice a-day.

I hope the original author is wrong on all this, because if he isn't I'm think I'm going be raping a few people before we're all done here on earth.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6851|San Diego, CA, USA
Wasn't there some economist who said if we had something like WWII right after 1929 we would had pulled ourselves out of the Depression?

Maybe this it is?  They'll be a draft and everything you've said will happen?  And who better to get everyone to go along with this than Obama, the 5th head on Mount Rushmore.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6803|so randum
Ill say it again, Russia cant afford it, China blatantly can't (who's going to buy their shit?), and even if they did, they wouldn't stand a chance against the US, and obviously the EU.
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Commie Killer
Member
+192|6690

FatherTed wrote:

Ill say it again, Russia cant afford it, China blatantly can't (who's going to buy their shit?), and even if they did, they wouldn't stand a chance against the US, and obviously the EU.
Russia has oil and gas and is the main supplier for Europe no less, China could finish this thing with a self sufficient economy, and with 1.3 billion people, a self sufficient Chinese economy would be unstoppable. Whats gonna make the EU defend some nations in Eastern Europe? They aren't binded to it by treaty, already let Georgia get over run(but thats a whole other topic), US is bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, and like I said, if Russia moves to slice the supply chain to Afghanistan, and things heat up on the Korean peninsula, the US would be pushed to the breaking point. We cant fight and support 3 regional conflicts, and a 4th or even a 5th (looking at Eastern Europe and the South China Sea here) would have to be ignored.

EDIT: I wasn't suggesting the EU wouldn't care if Eastern European countries were overrun, just that they would not risk conflict with Russia over it, and I don't really blame them.

Last edited by Commie Killer (2009-03-14 20:00:16)

FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6803|so randum

Commie Killer wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Ill say it again, Russia cant afford it, China blatantly can't (who's going to buy their shit?), and even if they did, they wouldn't stand a chance against the US, and obviously the EU.
Russia has oil and gas and is the main supplier for Europe no less, China could finish this thing with a self sufficient economy, and with 1.3 billion people, a self sufficient Chinese economy would be unstoppable. Whats gonna make the EU defend some nations in Eastern Europe? They aren't binded to it by treaty, already let Georgia get over run(but thats a whole other topic), US is bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, and like I said, if Russia moves to slice the supply chain to Afghanistan, and things heat up on the Korean peninsula, the US would be pushed to the breaking point. We cant fight and support 3 regional conflicts, and a 4th or even a 5th (looking at Eastern Europe and the South China Sea here) would have to be ignored.
Russia has that, and if it went the EU wouldn't be fighting for a few e.european nations, they'd be fighting for the resources. They pissed off enough big powers last time they cut the gas off. Russias economy is also around the plughole, their equipment, notably their navy is pretty shite atm.

Chinas economy is totally geared towards mass production at low cost, and selling globally, for the main they havn't got the market at home to keep their economy inwards, hence their recent flustering over their investments in America.

If push came to shove, i'm pretty sure the US could pull out their boys abroad pretty sharpish for redeployment, and i wouldn't be surprised if a major war wouldn't see conscription in most developed countries, a fighting force could be procured.

Russia and Chinas only real projection come in the form of their Bears, and Nukes- I seriously doubt anyone (apart from that tool running N.K) is mental enough to use nukes, and the bombers are easily countered.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6690

FatherTed wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Ill say it again, Russia cant afford it, China blatantly can't (who's going to buy their shit?), and even if they did, they wouldn't stand a chance against the US, and obviously the EU.
Russia has oil and gas and is the main supplier for Europe no less, China could finish this thing with a self sufficient economy, and with 1.3 billion people, a self sufficient Chinese economy would be unstoppable. Whats gonna make the EU defend some nations in Eastern Europe? They aren't binded to it by treaty, already let Georgia get over run(but thats a whole other topic), US is bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, and like I said, if Russia moves to slice the supply chain to Afghanistan, and things heat up on the Korean peninsula, the US would be pushed to the breaking point. We cant fight and support 3 regional conflicts, and a 4th or even a 5th (looking at Eastern Europe and the South China Sea here) would have to be ignored.
Russia has that, and if it went the EU wouldn't be fighting for a few e.european nations, they'd be fighting for the resources. They pissed off enough big powers last time they cut the gas off. Russias economy is also around the plughole, their equipment, notably their navy is pretty shite atm.

Chinas economy is totally geared towards mass production at low cost, and selling globally, for the main they havn't got the market at home to keep their economy inwards, hence their recent flustering over their investments in America.

If push came to shove, i'm pretty sure the US could pull out their boys abroad pretty sharpish for redeployment, and i wouldn't be surprised if a major war wouldn't see conscription in most developed countries, a fighting force could be procured.

Russia and Chinas only real projection come in the form of their Bears, and Nukes- I seriously doubt anyone (apart from that tool running N.K) is mental enough to use nukes, and the bombers are easily countered.
Fair enough. Sounds more sane then they stuff I was writing. Whadda ya think bout Korea?
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6803|so randum

Commie Killer wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:


Russia has oil and gas and is the main supplier for Europe no less, China could finish this thing with a self sufficient economy, and with 1.3 billion people, a self sufficient Chinese economy would be unstoppable. Whats gonna make the EU defend some nations in Eastern Europe? They aren't binded to it by treaty, already let Georgia get over run(but thats a whole other topic), US is bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, and like I said, if Russia moves to slice the supply chain to Afghanistan, and things heat up on the Korean peninsula, the US would be pushed to the breaking point. We cant fight and support 3 regional conflicts, and a 4th or even a 5th (looking at Eastern Europe and the South China Sea here) would have to be ignored.
Russia has that, and if it went the EU wouldn't be fighting for a few e.european nations, they'd be fighting for the resources. They pissed off enough big powers last time they cut the gas off. Russias economy is also around the plughole, their equipment, notably their navy is pretty shite atm.

Chinas economy is totally geared towards mass production at low cost, and selling globally, for the main they havn't got the market at home to keep their economy inwards, hence their recent flustering over their investments in America.

If push came to shove, i'm pretty sure the US could pull out their boys abroad pretty sharpish for redeployment, and i wouldn't be surprised if a major war wouldn't see conscription in most developed countries, a fighting force could be procured.

Russia and Chinas only real projection come in the form of their Bears, and Nukes- I seriously doubt anyone (apart from that tool running N.K) is mental enough to use nukes, and the bombers are easily countered.
Fair enough. Sounds more sane then they stuff I was writing. Whadda ya think bout Korea?
Korea i reckon is on the verge of doing something stupid. Stupid because the eyes of the world are on them, and they don't stand a snowballs chance in a microwave of doing anything drastic. Fire some missiles? Fine, the Japanese would love the target practice. Try and invade somewhere? Oh wait, you can't. If they declare war (which they've threatend), it would be a turkey shoot.

Whats the english translation of the first thread title btw?
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Commie Killer
Member
+192|6690
Our trickery I think. Yeah, Korea by itself is royally fucked. Thats sort of what brought me into thinking about outside involvement.
BVC
Member
+325|6998
China would be fucked by a biological attack.  1.3 billion people crammed in as they are and whatever is dropped will spread like wildfire.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6851|San Diego, CA, USA

Commie Killer wrote:

Our trickery I think. Yeah, Korea by itself is royally fucked. Thats sort of what brought me into thinking about outside involvement.
You're saying South Korea is fucked?  Yeah, their capital city, Seoul, is only 30 miles from the border with North Korea.  But South Korea recently starting putting robots on their border.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

Harmor wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

Our trickery I think. Yeah, Korea by itself is royally fucked. Thats sort of what brought me into thinking about outside involvement.
You're saying South Korea is fucked?  Yeah, their capital city, Seoul, is only 30 miles from the border with North Korea.  But South Korea recently starting putting robots on their border.
These robots able to shoot down scuds?
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Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5888

Eh not worried at all.

China unloading all of their assets of ours would disrupt the entire world's economy. Including the Chinese and Russian. Russia's economy is already so weak that any little disturbance will totally destroy their country.

If the Chinese economy goes to hell the Chinese people will have no reason to continue to live under the communist. The only thing keeping the Chinese people from rebelling is their money. If their people lose their money they will have nothing at that point. They already lack basic rights if they're completely poor you over a billion pissed Chinamen. 

Now if all of that doesn't happen and the Chinese and Russian decide to fight us, they may lose. Now if they win they win have millions of dead Russians and Chinese and a weak economy. They will eventually fight each other at some point right after.

The risk outweighs the potential reward.

As for Scenario B, Option B
At the point where we are risking a full out war against the Russians and Chinese the only people we are going to try to appease will be Americans and our like minded allies. If one of us are attacked we are all threatened. America as a whole wouldn't mind killing billions of civilians at the point since "They started it".

Thinking way too much into this.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7078|Moscow, Russia

FatherTed wrote:

Ill say it again, Russia cant afford it, China blatantly can't (who's going to buy their shit?), and even if they did, they wouldn't stand a chance against the US, and obviously the EU.
^^this

Harmor wrote:

Were's my tin-foil hat?
^^and this

there's no such thing on earth as "self sufficient economy" - the collapse of USSR has proven it very well.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6884|SE London

Shahter wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Ill say it again, Russia cant afford it, China blatantly can't (who's going to buy their shit?), and even if they did, they wouldn't stand a chance against the US, and obviously the EU.
^^this

Harmor wrote:

Were's my tin-foil hat?
^^and this

there's no such thing on earth as "self sufficient economy" - the collapse of USSR has proven it very well.
This too ^^
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7019
No one can match the logistical capability of the US ever. China can move troops, but they have to walk. Not to mention the food and ammo they will need to bring. US got tanks from california rolling into Iraq in 48 hours with enough food, ammo and supplies. You don't see them doing the same. Besides, their military is weak as hell compared to the US.
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Longbow
Member
+163|6949|Odessa, Ukraine
Someone read too much Tom Clancy's shit, heh?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6954|USA
Why not? It isn't like Obama is gunna do anything
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6803|so randum

lowing wrote:

Why not? It isn't like Obama is gunna do anything
Really?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 898650.ece

I wouldn't call sending an armed response to some pissy action by the chinese 'doing nothing'

Neither would i call redeploying soldiers in Afghanistan.
Small hourglass island
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Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

On the subject of the original topic.


If oil resources continue to tighten and we don't find viable alternatives and develop them properly I can see a major war in my lifetime.


In April though? I don't think so.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
icecold2510
Member
+31|6596

Flecco wrote:

On the subject of the original topic.


If oil resources continue to tighten and we don't find viable alternatives and develop them properly I can see a major war in my lifetime.


In April though? I don't think so.
Does 2012 seem possible?
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

icecold2510 wrote:

Flecco wrote:

On the subject of the original topic.


If oil resources continue to tighten and we don't find viable alternatives and develop them properly I can see a major war in my lifetime.


In April though? I don't think so.
Does 2012 seem possible?
Unless somebody makes a premature grab at it, no.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6690
NK said they're going to launch between April 4-8.

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