How is a nine year old capable of getting pregnant? What kind of shit do they put in the water down there anyways.
zomg conspiracy
zomg conspiracy
i have a doctor sitting right next to me now. let's just say that in medical practice the chances we are talking about here are considered to be zero. she also thinks that no fucking religious dogma is worth taking the huge risk in this case. you'll have to forgive me for siding with the professional here. kthnxbye.Varegg wrote:
Ooooh ... it's the tough guy ...
At 9 years of age she has more than ZERO chances of giving birth to a child, the likelyhood of both her and the baby surviving with normal birth is small but it's possible ... and there is something called a C section, maybe you should look it up or ask one of your medical friends ...
And do you even read the whole thread before you answer a post on the sideline of the debate, maybe you should do that before you make claims you can't back up with facts ...
Capiche?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
What about 8?Shahter wrote:
there are of course anomalies. but there are also risks. ask your doctor about what would he/she take into consideration - the fact that there is one girl who could have a baby at 5 years (mine thinks it's hoax, btw), or all the scientific knowledge according to which at 9 years the girl carrying twins would most certainly die along with her unborn children without the abortion.
Or 4 cases at 9
And 10 cases at 10 including twins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_yo … th_mothers
Do you really think Humans went through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution to become the most dominant species on the planet with the marvels the brain and hand have to offer, but just happen to 'forget' to stop ovulation before the body is ready?
Considered to be zero is a whole other ballgame than just stating it is zero, so unless you also have a mathematician sitting on the other side of you I can tell you that there is a world of difference between a concidered number and an absolute number ... or maybe the doc would like to comment on that?Shahter wrote:
i have a doctor sitting right next to me now. let's just say that in medical practice the chances we are talking about here are considered to be zero. she also thinks that no fucking religious dogma is worth taking the huge risk in this case. you'll have to forgive me for siding with the professional here. kthnxbye.Varegg wrote:
Ooooh ... it's the tough guy ...
At 9 years of age she has more than ZERO chances of giving birth to a child, the likelyhood of both her and the baby surviving with normal birth is small but it's possible ... and there is something called a C section, maybe you should look it up or ask one of your medical friends ...
And do you even read the whole thread before you answer a post on the sideline of the debate, maybe you should do that before you make claims you can't back up with facts ...
Capiche?
... but that really wasn't the initial discussion either, it was the religious perspective we were discussing ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
4 at 9? 10 at 10? and how many DIED giving birth to children at that age? i won't even bother looking - to anybody in posession of even a tiny shred of common sence it's obvious that the ratio would be overwhelming.DrunkFace wrote:
What about 8?
Or 4 cases at 9
And 10 cases at 10 including twins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_yo … th_mothers
Do you really think Humans went through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution to become the most dominant species on the planet with the marvels the brain and hand have to offer, but just happen to 'forget' to stop ovulation before the body is ready?
Last edited by Shahter (2009-03-12 12:53:24)
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
The kid would have died during childbirth, her babies too. Forcing birth upon her, given that the consequences are known in advance, is akin to murder. Forcing her to give birth is three counts of murder, wheras abortion (lets assume it is murder for the purposes of this debate) is two counts.
Three sins versus two, it boils down to a numbers game. In this case, it was a matter of picking the lesser of two evils.
And, sidetracking a little, this whole is a practical demonstration of why its wrong to have sex with children.
Three sins versus two, it boils down to a numbers game. In this case, it was a matter of picking the lesser of two evils.
And, sidetracking a little, this whole is a practical demonstration of why its wrong to have sex with children.
bit egotistical of the men who wrote it no? Especially considering none of it was written during the only time where supposedly someone who knew god and could speak for him was on earth.Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
It's what the church I went to told me to believe for 16 years. I think its in the bible somewhere.Vilham wrote:
bit egotistical of you no? How do you know what god thinks?Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
All sins are equal in the eyes of god.
"all men have sinned and therefore fallen short of the glory of god" or something like that
Religion = bullshit.
Of course it is overwhelming ... but it's funny how you have went from zero via concidered zero to overwhelming ratio in just a few posts ... and even without admitting you were initially wrong ...Shahter wrote:
4 at 9? 10 at 10? and how many DIED giving birth to children at that age? i won't even bother looking - to anybody in posession of even a tiny shred of common sence it's obvious that the ratio would be overwhelming.DrunkFace wrote:
What about 8?
Or 4 cases at 9
And 10 cases at 10 including twins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_yo … th_mothers
Do you really think Humans went through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution to become the most dominant species on the planet with the marvels the brain and hand have to offer, but just happen to 'forget' to stop ovulation before the body is ready?
Welcome to the DST section
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Well, regardless of how often 9 year olds can have kids, hopefully, we can agree that the Catholic Church is full of shit.
oh, so now you are arguing semantics, huh? i was of course exagerating it with "zero chances", so, if it would please you, here we go - i WAS wrong. there are very few things that have zero probability (doc, actually, commented on that) in medical practice - they operate with risks and probabilities all the time and re this case she's adamant: nobody in their right mind (religious cretins exluded of course) would ever take the risk we are talking here.Varegg wrote:
Considered to be zero is a whole other ballgame than just stating it is zero, so unless you also have a mathematician sitting on the other side of you I can tell you that there is a world of difference between a concidered number and an absolute number ... or maybe the doc would like to comment on that?
but, hey, i'm debating just that. right-fucking-on.Varegg wrote:
... but that really wasn't the initial discussion either, it was the religious perspective we were discussing ...
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
We are always discussing semantics ... and besides that I totally agree with the fact that she shouldn't finish her pregnancy, both because of her age and because she was a victim of rape ...Shahter wrote:
oh, so now you are arguing semantics, huh? i was of course exagerating it with "zero chances", so, if it would please you, here we go - i WAS wrong. there are very few things that have zero probability (doc, actually, commented on that) in medical practice - they operate with risks and probabilities all the time and re this case she's adamant: nobody in their right mind (religious cretins exluded of course) would ever take the risk we are talking here.Varegg wrote:
Considered to be zero is a whole other ballgame than just stating it is zero, so unless you also have a mathematician sitting on the other side of you I can tell you that there is a world of difference between a concidered number and an absolute number ... or maybe the doc would like to comment on that?
GoodyShahter wrote:
but, hey, i'm debating just that. right-fucking-on.Varegg wrote:
... but that really wasn't the initial discussion either, it was the religious perspective we were discussing ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
The Germens elected the Nazis, a facist totalitarian regime, because they appealed to Nationalist pride. One of the trademarks of a Totalitarian Regime is persecution of religious minorities. It is a little fuzzy though, it may not have caused it but it definitely played a large part, the Germen atrocities where one of the reasons the US wanted into the War.FEOS wrote:
That's actually not the cause of WW2. Could be the cause of the Holocaust...but not WW2.Narupug wrote:
Um let me see the Germen catholics hated the Jews because they had successful businesses. They already don't like them because of some of the teachings of catholicism in the New Testament e.g. Paul blames the Jews for Jesus' death. In the first epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians (2:14-15), it says, "the Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets...." So the Nazis use the Jews as a common enemy to rally the Germen people and gain control of the government. Shall I continue or do you know what happens from there?Pug wrote:
Just curious...
World War II
Good try, though.
Last edited by Narupug (2009-03-12 17:52:17)
Nar, do you even know how the Nazis came to power? Shrewd political manipulation of the German system. The highest percentage of government seats they held before they got Hitler into the position of Chancellor was 37%. The strongest opposition they faced and second largest party in Germany at the time was the communist party. After the Reichstag Fire Decree they systematically dismantled the political power of the communists, stripping them of their rights. The second largest party (socialists, as opposed to communists) that opposed them had the same thing done to them pretty soon after.
The Nazis weren't truly elected, they performed what I consider a legislative coup d'etat.
The Nazis weren't truly elected, they performed what I consider a legislative coup d'etat.
Last edited by Flecco (2009-03-12 18:06:28)
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
You are right, I meant to say they kept power through national pride, because it's hard to lead a country that doesn't want you leading.Flecco wrote:
Nar, do you even know how the Nazis came to power? Shrewd political manipulation of the German system. The highest percentage of government seats they held before they got Hitler into the position of Chancellor was 37%. The strongest opposition they faced and second largest party in Germany at the time was the communist party. After the Reichstag Fire Decree they systematically dismantled the political power of the communists, stripping them of their rights. The second largest party (socialists, as opposed to communists) that opposed them had the same thing done to them pretty soon after.
The Nazis weren't truly elected, they performed what I consider a legislative coup d'etat.
I didnt say that or actually I didnt even read the story I just replied to ur commendShahter wrote:
orly? so, are you saying they should have left poor girl for dead because of the bullshit above, even though in OP's particular case:blademaster wrote:
Apart from an overall regard for the sanctity of life, Judaism finds other reasons to ban abortion:
* killing a foetus breaks God's command to populate the world
* killing a foetus destroys something made in God's image
* killing a foetus is wanton destruction of part of God's creation
* killing a foetus destroys something that could become a being
* killing a foetus is an unjustifiable act of wounding
* it is wrong to injure oneself
* that foetus could not have contributed to populating the earth
* that foetus couldn't have grown into something resemling "God's image"
* oh, foetus is a part of the "God's creation", huh? but so is appendix - should removing those be banned too?
* that foetus could not become a being
* ah, so it's wrong to injure someone? even if it is nessesary to save one's life?
religion = fail.
kthxsbye
Although I did say caused by, fueled, or significantly played a part and a main point of all communism and fascism is the absence of religion. Specifically the Catholic church (and scapegoating the Jews of course).FEOS wrote:
That's actually not the cause of WW2. Could be the cause of the Holocaust...but not WW2.Narupug wrote:
Um let me see the Germen catholics hated the Jews because they had successful businesses. They already don't like them because of some of the teachings of catholicism in the New Testament e.g. Paul blames the Jews for Jesus' death. In the first epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians (2:14-15), it says, "the Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets...." So the Nazis use the Jews as a common enemy to rally the Germen people and gain control of the government. Shall I continue or do you know what happens from there?Pug wrote:
Just curious...
World War II
Good try, though.
Flecco is right. Well, close. What he left out is how Hitler became Chancellor. Him and 30,000 supporters marched to the king and demanded Hitler become in control of govt. The king thought giving into that demand thought that it'd be the best choice, politically, for him to remain where he was; not to mention the socialists (might be a different party but I believe this is right) thought they'd be able to control Hitler for their own uses but failed terribly. As for the fire where the parliament met, the Nazis won by a slim majority because they spread the word that people of the communist party started the fire.Narupug wrote:
You are right, I meant to say they kept power through national pride, because it's hard to lead a country that doesn't want you leading.Flecco wrote:
Nar, do you even know how the Nazis came to power? Shrewd political manipulation of the German system. The highest percentage of government seats they held before they got Hitler into the position of Chancellor was 37%. The strongest opposition they faced and second largest party in Germany at the time was the communist party. After the Reichstag Fire Decree they systematically dismantled the political power of the communists, stripping them of their rights. The second largest party (socialists, as opposed to communists) that opposed them had the same thing done to them pretty soon after.
The Nazis weren't truly elected, they performed what I consider a legislative coup d'etat.
And to Narupug, a big thing about communism/Nazism/fascism is an extreme sense of nationalism. But, and here's where it turns around, this is exactly how people like Hitler and Mussolini did get the general public wanting them to lead; by spreading fear of their enemies and promising security and promoting (understatement) high nationalism.
Last edited by xBlackPantherx (2009-03-13 06:08:48)
Shit like this makes me feel ashamed of my country. Anyone who wants an abortion in Brazil has to either go to a really sketchy guy, who will probably not have the right tools or training, have a DIY attempt on it, or go overseas.
I have to say it's unfair to force a child to have a child of their own. It's traumatic enough to get raped, why would they have to go through with child birth when they haven't done anything wrong, and they're not grown up? How are you going to tell a nine year old that she's having a baby of her own?
My girlfriend is religious, and it's because of shit like this that I have to keep telling her I can't believe in what she does. I can't believe in a system that is so corrupt, where the uneducated get to make deductions from a text - and are usually literal, and don't carry over cultural and ethical differences between the ages. There needs to be better screening for who gets to call himself a religious figure. In my opinion, the bible is figurative, and has a lot of good messages. However, if you're literal when you read it, chances are you're going to be fucking a lot of people over.
-kon
I have to say it's unfair to force a child to have a child of their own. It's traumatic enough to get raped, why would they have to go through with child birth when they haven't done anything wrong, and they're not grown up? How are you going to tell a nine year old that she's having a baby of her own?
My girlfriend is religious, and it's because of shit like this that I have to keep telling her I can't believe in what she does. I can't believe in a system that is so corrupt, where the uneducated get to make deductions from a text - and are usually literal, and don't carry over cultural and ethical differences between the ages. There needs to be better screening for who gets to call himself a religious figure. In my opinion, the bible is figurative, and has a lot of good messages. However, if you're literal when you read it, chances are you're going to be fucking a lot of people over.
-kon
Close thread now please before someone can say something stupid to dispute this. This is pretty much how I can generally sum up every debate I've been in about religion.konfusion wrote:
In my opinion, the bible is figurative, and has a lot of good messages. However, if you're literal when you read it, chances are you're going to be fucking a lot of people over.
-kon
Great messages.xBlackPantherx wrote:
Close thread now please before someone can say something stupid to dispute this. This is pretty much how I can generally sum up every debate I've been in about religion.konfusion wrote:
In my opinion, the bible is figurative, and has a lot of good messages. However, if you're literal when you read it, chances are you're going to be fucking a lot of people over.
-kon
Particularly like the one about putting non-believers to the sword.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
I'm joking.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
"Respect others' beliefs" - the 'Golden Rule'Flecco wrote:
Great messages.xBlackPantherx wrote:
Close thread now please before someone can say something stupid to dispute this. This is pretty much how I can generally sum up every debate I've been in about religion.konfusion wrote:
In my opinion, the bible is figurative, and has a lot of good messages. However, if you're literal when you read it, chances are you're going to be fucking a lot of people over.
-kon
Particularly like the one about putting non-believers to the sword. http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w131 … awsm-2.png
Spoiler (highlight to read):
I'm joking.
'But if you don't believe in me, or haven't heard of me, or are a newborn/unbaptized baby etc., you go to hell. Murdering 9 year old children through inaction is ok but don't kill the non-human being fetuses inside her.'
It's just the double-standards, hypocrisy etc., that makes (modern) religion bullshit.
Eh, in my opinion, religion is only as good as its followers - kind of like any ideology. Communism and capitalism are no exceptions to that - and they're preached like religions in some places (I'm looking at you, USA and Cuba)
-kon
-kon
Communism is incompatible with religion I do believe e.g. Why Stalin destroyed Orthodox Churches and persecuted priests. He replaced pictures of religious figures in peoples homes with pictures of himself, and not only because he was a crazy person. But because peoples allegiance needs to be to on person for Totalitarianism to truely work by glorifying the ruler. I should just stick to the topickonfusion wrote:
Eh, in my opinion, religion is only as good as its followers - kind of like any ideology. Communism and capitalism are no exceptions to that - and they're preached like religions in some places (I'm looking at you, USA and Cuba)
-kon
My view summarized.
WTF ARE YOU GUYS CRAZY YOU WANT A NINE YEAR OLD TO HAVE A BABY.
No, it was because of what Flecco said and the triple-whammy, or really quadruple-whammy of WWI, Versailles, hyperinflation and the Depression.Narupug wrote:
The Germens elected the Nazis, a facist totalitarian regime, because they appealed to Nationalist pride. One of the trademarks of a Totalitarian Regime is persecution of religious minorities. It is a little fuzzy though, it may not have caused it but it definitely played a large part, the Germen atrocities where one of the reasons the US wanted into the War.FEOS wrote:
That's actually not the cause of WW2. Could be the cause of the Holocaust...but not WW2.Narupug wrote:
Um let me see the Germen catholics hated the Jews because they had successful businesses. They already don't like them because of some of the teachings of catholicism in the New Testament e.g. Paul blames the Jews for Jesus' death. In the first epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians (2:14-15), it says, "the Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets...." So the Nazis use the Jews as a common enemy to rally the Germen people and gain control of the government. Shall I continue or do you know what happens from there?
Good try, though.
All totalitarian ideologies have a problem with religion, as it provides a ready made forum for political dissidence.Why Stalin destroyed Orthodox Churches and persecuted priests.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Totalitarian regimes don't like any other belief system at all to be present in their state unless it is the one that they are based on. Hussein's Iraq is the only totalitarian state I can think of that didn't outlaw or embrace religion, the old Feudal Kingdoms of Europe used it as justification, as opposed to the USSR, which tried to destroy it.
Communism is particularly jealous of it's citizens because human cynicism toward government makes faith impossible, and it seems to me that most civilisations require some sort of functioning system of faith in something to function properly. Faolun Gong isn't a religious movement grounded in dogma, it's a spiritual movement, and look at what happened to it.
Anyway, that's my particular opinion.
Communism is particularly jealous of it's citizens because human cynicism toward government makes faith impossible, and it seems to me that most civilisations require some sort of functioning system of faith in something to function properly. Faolun Gong isn't a religious movement grounded in dogma, it's a spiritual movement, and look at what happened to it.
Anyway, that's my particular opinion.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
We're off topic so I'll make it quick first OFF YOU PEOPLE ARE REPEATING WHAT I SAID I WAS USING STALIN AS AN EXAMPLE!!!!Spark wrote:
No, it was because of what Flecco said and the triple-whammy, or really quadruple-whammy of WWI, Versailles, hyperinflation and the Depression.Narupug wrote:
The Germans elected the Nazis, a fascist totalitarian regime, because they appealed to Nationalist pride. One of the trademarks of a Totalitarian Regime is persecution of religious minorities. It is a little fuzzy though, it may not have caused it but it definitely played a large part, the German atrocities where one of the reasons the US wanted into the War.FEOS wrote:
That's actually not the cause of WW2. Could be the cause of the Holocaust...but not WW2.
Good try, though.All totalitarian ideologies have a problem with religion, as it provides a ready made forum for political dissidence.Why Stalin destroyed Orthodox Churches and persecuted priests.
Also Hitler blamed the Jews for the German loss in WWI which led to them having to pay these reparations which caused their economy to go through the cellar. The Nazis came into power because the people viewed them as the only ones with a solution to the economic problem. Hitler after he had gained power and had dealt with the economic issues, not all of the economic growth they experianced was as a result of his doings but he took credit for it, he began to get ready to go to war with neighboring countries so he could give Germany "living space" or as he called it lebastrum, probably spelled it wrong. He also wanted to spread his master race. So as I have said before while it didn't really cause WWII, the Treaty of Versilles did, it gave the Germans and Hitler a scapegoat to blame losing the war and the resulting War Guilt Clause on, so Hitler with his ideas for a master race wants to spread it, among other reasons for waging war on all of Europe.
I'M NOT RESPONDING TO ANY REPLIES THIS IS OFF TOPIC