BF2S Forums Health Care Comparative: Americans Pay 2½ times More &are Less Healthy

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Does the OP realize that the government is already mismanaging the money? Our government already taxes more for health care than any other nation.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner and it isn't Mediscare.

Medicare/aid have to operate within the wasteful private US system so all the waste gets passed into medicare's costs.

PureFodder wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Does the OP realize that the government is already mismanaging the money? Our government already taxes more for health care than any other nation.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner and it isn't Mediscare.

Medicare/aid have to operate within the wasteful private US system so all the waste gets passed into medicare's costs.

So eliminate the private sector? There are specific and separate rules in place for Medicaid. Doctors (Their cost) and treatment (Prescription cost) need to have government plan approval. Did you know this?

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Ty wrote:

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Universal healthcare will be a disaster in the US...

What are you basing that on? The fact that universal healthcare has worked incredibly well in every other country using it?

Oh wait.

This is about Universal healthcare in the US... I am not familiar with other countries healthcare situations... only heard that the care is ok in other countries and there are extended waits in some cases...  Our US govt will screw up any govt run healthcare they can get their hands on... I'll let the next couple of years in the US be my example...

Well surely they can't do any worse than the private sector has done right? All they need to do is directly copy the healthcare plan from somewhere like the UK. Americans have no problem blatantly ripping off British TV shows, I'm sure they wont mind you ripping off their healthcare system too.

As for long waits the only thing you have to wait for is organ transplants, and that's mostly because matching donors aren't easy to come by. If you have a major accident and need immediate medical attention you will get it. They won't shove you out the door as soon as you're stable either, they'll make damn sure you've recovered first. I think it's perfectly reasonable for Americans to want this kind of sevice, the truth is they're certainly not getting it.

TPM-J45P3R- wrote:

Not free....... see Council Tax.

What is meant is that when it comes time to use the service no money changes hands. If your house is on fire a fire crew won't come around to your house and demand payment before they put it out.

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Does the OP realize that the government is already mismanaging the money? Our government already taxes more for health care than any other nation.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner and it isn't Mediscare.

Shallow argument

Medicare and the medicare prescription drug program have been skewed into a pork gift from republican't to the private health care industry. The prescription drug program is a prime example where people are forced to hand over retirement money for private insurance and int return they get bloated costs for prescription drugs because medicare is not permitted to negotiate for a lower cost for the drugs like the VA does. Medicare fails to control costs for procedures and permits the 2 1/2 more cost of private health care to be borne by the tax payer and medicare user.

Mismanaged money? yes of course, so far its been a pork filled give away for the private health care industry. It ironic that the money give away to the private health care industry should be used as "proof" that a national system is unworkable.

We should be able to cover everyone just by overhauling and reforming the system... its makes economic sense. Now if only we could look past the private health insdustry rear guard action that keeps crying "socialism, socialism..."

No one has a god given right to a profit and no one has a right to pork up on tax payer money.

Like I said "Its just common sense that the private sector can no longer be trusted to run the health care industry."

Ty wrote:

What about the fact that America has one of the worst infant mortality rates in the world? What about the fact that American life-expectancey is well below that of people in the rest of the developed world?

Just curious where you are quoting that from..is that from "Sicko" ?

Because both statements are utterly false

According to the UN population division and the CIA world factbook the US has a rate around  6 deaths per 1000 births, just slightly worse than the UK's 4. Life expectancy is around 78, with the very "best" rated country at 82, and a world average of 67.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … ality_rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … expectancy

Last edited by Vax (2009-03-12 18:15:17)

Turquoise wrote:

So why don't we just socialize health insurance instead of healthcare itself?

It looks like the most broken part of our system involves the insurance agencies.  Fuck them.  We should kick them out of the picture, and then the costs should come down some.

Or some regulation might be good ..as well as tort reform. Malpractice insurance is through the roof because of our lawsuit happy ways

I think that pharmaceuticals/prescriptions and medical supplies in general are wayy overpriced as well. 
Of course this gets back to insurance, these companies overcharge because insurers are paying for the stuff.

Turquoise wrote:

So why don't we just socialize health insurance instead of healthcare itself?

It looks like the most broken part of our system involves the insurance agencies.  Fuck them.  We should kick them out of the picture, and then the costs should come down some.

getting rid of private insurance would be a great place to start and it would definitely save money. But you would have to really regulate to keep the profit motive from running up costs, like the medicare prescription plan. If there is money coming from the govt to private hands you can be sure the wolves will have the lobbyists out to gouge the taxpayer. But that's not to say that it couldn't be done.

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Does the OP realize that the government is already mismanaging the money? Our government already taxes more for health care than any other nation.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner and it isn't Mediscare.

Shallow argument

Medicare and the medicare prescription drug program have been skewed into a pork gift from republican't to the private health care industry. The prescription drug program is a prime example where people are forced to hand over retirement money for private insurance and int return they get bloated costs for prescription drugs because medicare is not permitted to negotiate for a lower cost for the drugs like the VA does. Medicare fails to control costs for procedures and permits the 2 1/2 more cost of private health care to be borne by the tax payer and medicare user.

Mismanaged money? yes of course, so far its been a pork filled give away for the private health care industry. It ironic that the money give away to the private health care industry should be used as "proof" that a national system is unworkable.

We should be able to cover everyone just by overhauling and reforming the system... its makes economic sense. Now if only we could look past the private health insdustry rear guard action that keeps crying "socialism, socialism..."

No one has a god given right to a profit and no one has a right to pork up on tax payer money.

Like I said "Its just common sense that the private sector can no longer be trusted to run the health care industry."

It's not an argument. It is the truth. There is plenty of of evidence to back it up. Your remarks have failed to address one of the leading causes of the high cost of health care, that is the amount of insurance health care providers must carry to cover our sue happy culture. Of course an overhaul is due, and this is where you start. Making prescription drugs negotiable is another component of reform (medicare), you mentioned this but you seem to think that it has to be contingent upon a single plan for 300 million+ people.

I'm not some cold hearted asshole just wishing the plague upon you and those who are incapable of providing healthcare for their families. If it's charity you want fine, just call it that. I in fact do care about my fellow man. However, I've seen what our federal government does with our money (you've actually acknowledged this). It is absurd to think that the special interest will just disappear because we have removed competition and made a bunch of crooked politicians more powerful with our tax dollars. That is perpetuating an already existing problem in our system of government. ..and btw Republicans and Democrats both campaign for private insurance profits.

But yea, free healthcare for all.. lollipops and such sounds great.

BN wrote:

I dont know why anyone would want to put an essential service, like health, into the hands of private enterprise. Private enterprise is designed to make money. Are the patients best interests at heart...no, making money is their primary goal.

Because they want a choice... with a safety net. We don't trust the competence of our Government, and that is precisly why we don't want them deciding what is medically necessary or affordable for us.

We are trying to avoid this:
[google]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5065868066847910612&hl=en[/google]

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

I find it strange that the US generaly has such low trust for their goverment.

It´s almost like you didn´t have a democracy, didn´t vote for your beleifs. But lived in a dictatorship that you need to protect yourself from with guns and insurances.  After all it´s you that decides who should be in charge.

And I agree, companies wants to make money, not to make you healthy, then you wouldn´t come back for more right?

I fear to much is goin down the private road here in sweden aswell, somethings SHOULD be run by the goverment and not profiteers.

Federally. It has a lot to do with the extraordinary size of our government. I've stated before and many others would also be open to a state plan (which we have but needs major improvements).

Kmarion wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Ding ding ding, we have a winner and it isn't Mediscare.

Shallow argument

Medicare and the medicare prescription drug program have been skewed into a pork gift from republican't to the private health care industry. The prescription drug program is a prime example where people are forced to hand over retirement money for private insurance and int return they get bloated costs for prescription drugs because medicare is not permitted to negotiate for a lower cost for the drugs like the VA does. Medicare fails to control costs for procedures and permits the 2 1/2 more cost of private health care to be borne by the tax payer and medicare user.

Mismanaged money? yes of course, so far its been a pork filled give away for the private health care industry. It ironic that the money give away to the private health care industry should be used as "proof" that a national system is unworkable.

We should be able to cover everyone just by overhauling and reforming the system... its makes economic sense. Now if only we could look past the private health insdustry rear guard action that keeps crying "socialism, socialism..."

No one has a god given right to a profit and no one has a right to pork up on tax payer money.

Like I said "Its just common sense that the private sector can no longer be trusted to run the health care industry."

It's not an argument. It is the truth. There is plenty of of evidence to back it up. Your remarks have failed to address one of the leading causes of the high cost of health care, that is the amount of insurance health care providers must carry to cover our sue happy culture. Of course an overhaul is due, and this is where you start. Making prescription drugs negotiable is another component of reform (medicare), you mentioned this but you seem to think that it has to be contingent upon a single plan for 300 million+ people.

I'm not some cold hearted asshole just wishing the plague upon you and those who are incapable of providing healthcare for their families. If it's charity you want fine, just call it that. I in fact do care about my fellow man. However, I've seen what our federal government does with our money (you've actually acknowledged this). It is absurd to think that the special interest will just disappear because we have removed competition and made a bunch of crooked politicians more powerful with our tax dollars. That is perpetuating an already existing problem in our system of government. ..and btw Republicans and Democrats both campaign for private insurance profits.

But yea, free healthcare for all.. lollipops and such sounds great.

I would be 100% for a prohibition of lawsuits against doctors IF
1. national health care meant that everyone is covered and there is no out of pocket expenses AND
2. that truly incompetent doctors get retrained or lose their licenses to protect the public

Then you are really setting out a social contract, free health care but you can't sue.

Right now what tort reformers want it to have their cake and eat it too.... You get high out of pocket costs and if you get an incompetent doctor that causes you harm then you get f*cked twice.

What you say is true enough.... how can we trust the govt when things like the SEC (Madoff/economic crash) or medicare perscription plan are so messed up by special interests. But the difference is that the govt is under pressure to fix the economy because its their job or duty and right now the health care industry is messed up and there is no corresponding duty on the govt to clean it up. If the govt implements a plan and makes regulation then at least when there is a mess up then the people can start to harrass the govt for reform. But right now there is no national program and so people are let to fend for themselves against large corporations who don't give a rats A$$ about anything but their bottom line.
So Yah there is no guarantee and it could be a catastrophuk, but at least it would be a start and be a focal point to be worked on until its made right.



One thing I wanted to add was that national healthcare would be a huge benefit to small business who can't afford health care for their workers. These businesses can't compete onan equal footing with the larger businesses when it comes to offering healthcare to their employees. People will take less pay if it gets them healthcare benefits for their kids. If the health care benefit were taken over by the govt then small buisnesses would have an easier time attracting quallifed employees and people who work for a larger comapny for the benefits would be freed to work in smaller companies. It would really act to level the playing field between large and small business and would help increase the mobility of labor. That's another economic plus.

@ Diesel_dyk .. We don't need to swing to the extreme "100% for a prohibition of lawsuits against doctors". Just put the appropriate rules in place. Like do not allow attorneys to push themselves into the minds of the sick and injured (Market/solicit). I think NY has a law that makes it illegal for attorneys to make the initial contact with someone who is injured (within a certain time frame). That is a start.


@BN.. Sadly, no I do not. We do not have a free government, the rulers are not the servants, and the people are not their superiors or sovereigns. It was a nice thought though.

Ty wrote:

But let's look at actual facts. The US is 45th in the world when ranked by life expectancy. This is the most powerful most rich nation and it's 45th! Are you satisfied with that? Fucking Hell I wouldn't be, I'm not exactly thrilled with NZ's 32nd placement but hey, we're still better than the United States.

lets look at other facts.  NZ is not near as diverse as our country.  nor do you take on mass amounts of people from other countries.