BF2S Forums So, my neighbor was charged with 29,000 counts of accessory to murder

FatherTed wrote:

Ty wrote:

Has anyone heard of the Milgram Experiments? Very interesting. We'd all like to think that if we were ordered to exterminate thousands of people we'd do the honourable thing and refuse, the Milgram Exeriments painted a different picture.

That being said all those who aided in causing the Holocaust should be held accountable, even if punishment is no longer really an option.

What's your views on the leniency afforded to the companies who made things like the Zyklon gas?

Well I said that everyone should be held accountable and I stand by that. However there are mitigating circumstances. For instance, if Parker sells one of his knives to someone and the person he sells it to stabs and kill someone with it is Parker to be held responsible? Is it his fault that the person who bought it usd it for purposes that Parker himself didn't have in mind for it, (I assume)?

Zyklon-B is a pesticide, it's not produced to kill people, or at least it wasn't originally meant for this pupose. However I think that someone at the company had to be wise to what was the planned use of the gas by the Nazis and even if not somone had to know that something was up. You can't claim ignorance for something as huge as the Holocaust. There should be no leniency for things like that even though companies do tend to not want to know for the very reason so that they can't be held accountable. Questioning leads to less profits and no company will do that. It's always better to risk being uncovered later than risk loosing all that potential profit. As unfair as that is, for the producers of Zyklon-B it seemed to pay off.

Stimey wrote:

Was he just a guard?

Who cares

Yeah I'm split on this, on one hand, he indeed was a bastard. On the other, it's probably not like he had a choice. And on my special, third hand, he should've been dealt with a long time ago, why bring it up now? After all.... he's already had his fun with usmarine's aunt and ceslayer's mum and everything..

Something needed to be done about the camp guards but at the end of the day, I guess most of them did just get off as regular POW's and emigrated elsewhere, and basically if the German authorities are going to go after this guy then they should go after every single WW2 German/Axis war veteran.

What happened in Nazi Germany could have happened anywhere and the same has happened on a smaller but similar scale elsewhere ...

Not excusing him at all but rather understanding the underlying factors at hand ...

I suggest you guys read: The Kindly Ones by Jonathan Littell ... it's a fictious book written in a selfbiograhical style but the story describes very well the issues of being a nazi both before, during and after WW2.

A very strange book but an eye opener ... the term in German "Die Wohlgesinnten" is a pretty known phenomenon and "The Kindly Ones" imo is a bad translation ...

This in addition to the Milgram experiments Ty mentioned gives you a better perspective of this ...

Gawwad wrote:

1. Kill prisoners
2. Become a prisoner or die. Likely with your family in danger aswell

Make your pick.

And what exactly would torturing him accoplish?
Tells something about the person suggesting it.

Mekstizzle wrote:

Yeah I'm split on this, on one hand, he indeed was a bastard. On the other, it's probably not like he had a choice. And on my special, third hand, he should've been dealt with a long time ago, why bring it up now? After all.... he's already had his fun with usmarine's aunt and ceslayer's mum and everything..

Something needed to be done about the camp guards but at the end of the day, I guess most of them did just get off as regular POW's and emigrated elsewhere, and basically if the German authorities are going to go after this guy then they should go after every single WW2 German/Axis war veteran.

What they said.

Ty wrote:

Has anyone heard of the Milgram Experiments? Very interesting. We'd all like to think that if we were ordered to exterminate thousands of people we'd do the honourable thing and refuse, the Milgram Exeriments painted a different picture.

That being said all those who aided in causing the Holocaust should be held accountable, even if punishment is no longer really an option.

Yup was reading about it in my book the other day. 65% compliance without line of sight, 30% actually physically forcing someone's hand onto an electric plate, we actually faired worse than monkeys.

bennisboy wrote:

... I doubt he signed up so he could kill jews!....

germans had no business attacking half the fucking world, no one raided their country so its not like they had to defend themselves - it was all about power and racial cleansing ....

old man should be punished....

bennisboy wrote:

bad-man wrote:

bennisboy wrote:

... I doubt he signed up so he could kill jews!....

germans had no business attacking half the fucking world, no one raided their country so its not like they had to defend themselves - it was all about power and racial cleansing ....

old man should be punished....

You sir are ignorant. Do you really think every single German agreed with Hitler's views? Its like saying every single american agreed that invading Iraq was good cos bush did.

americans responded to attack, germans did not, they were the attacker

bad-man wrote:

bennisboy wrote:

bad-man wrote:

germans had no business attacking half the fucking world, no one raided their country so its not like they had to defend themselves - it was all about power and racial cleansing ....

old man should be punished....

You sir are ignorant. Do you really think every single German agreed with Hitler's views? Its like saying every single american agreed that invading Iraq was good cos bush did.

americans responded to attack, germans did not, they were the attacker

Since when do you risk your life in the USA if you protest your wars?
Also it was the 1930s and 40s, times have changed quite a bit.

bad-man wrote:

bennisboy wrote:

bad-man wrote:

americans responded to attack, germans did not, they were the attacker

You are still assuming that the views of everyone in the country is the same as their leader. Thats incredibly ignorant.

Also, which do you think is worse, a soldier that has signed up to his country's army in order to represent his country and their policy, and is responding to attack, by invading another country and going against orders and hurting/killing inncocent civilians. Or a soldier that has been forced to serve in his country's army, and is forced in to following orders to kill innocent people?

surely its the one who has gone against his country's policy and chosen to kill innocent people.

dont call me ignorant, its my opinion and its based on years of studding history of WW2 from many angles and more than one history book.
I dont presume anything, there were germans that were against hitler and his agenda, even tried to stop him. And as much as i understand that solders have to follow orders, they dont have to be overly brutal and unnecessarily kill unarmed civilians in concentration camps.... now read what the guards were doing in the concentration camps to people and get back to me when you did....

It's amazing how clueless of the situation one can be even after apparently studying the subject.

Do you have any idea how a totalitarian nation works?
You don't just say "hey, I don't like this!"

Gawwad wrote:

bad-man wrote:

bennisboy wrote:

You are still assuming that the views of everyone in the country is the same as their leader. Thats incredibly ignorant.

Also, which do you think is worse, a soldier that has signed up to his country's army in order to represent his country and their policy, and is responding to attack, by invading another country and going against orders and hurting/killing inncocent civilians. Or a soldier that has been forced to serve in his country's army, and is forced in to following orders to kill innocent people?

surely its the one who has gone against his country's policy and chosen to kill innocent people.

dont call me ignorant, its my opinion and its based on years of studding history of WW2 from many angles and more than one history book.
I dont presume anything, there were germans that were against hitler and his agenda, even tried to stop him. And as much as i understand that solders have to follow orders, they dont have to be overly brutal and unnecessarily kill unarmed civilians in concentration camps.... now read what the guards were doing in the concentration camps to people and get back to me when you did....

It's amazing how clueless of the situation one can be even after apparently studying the subject.

Do you have any idea how a totalitarian nation works?
You don't just say "hey, I don't like this!"

im not saying the soldiers should have disregarded their orders, they have to do what they are told, but what im saying is they didnt have to murder already captured and defenseless people in concentration camps .....

Gawwad wrote:

I'll let you re-read the posts, if you still can't comprehend I won't be wasting my time here.
You managed to miss the point in two posts in a row.

obviously you're ignorant about what happened in concentration camps and so i want be wasting my time trying to explain it to you.

its one thing to follow orders its another to kill already imprisoned, defenseless people for fun....

Last edited by bad-man (2009-03-12 12:26:32)

Gawwad wrote:

bad-man wrote:

bennisboy wrote:

You are still assuming that the views of everyone in the country is the same as their leader. Thats incredibly ignorant.

Also, which do you think is worse, a soldier that has signed up to his country's army in order to represent his country and their policy, and is responding to attack, by invading another country and going against orders and hurting/killing inncocent civilians. Or a soldier that has been forced to serve in his country's army, and is forced in to following orders to kill innocent people?

surely its the one who has gone against his country's policy and chosen to kill innocent people.

dont call me ignorant, its my opinion and its based on years of studding history of WW2 from many angles and more than one history book.
I dont presume anything, there were germans that were against hitler and his agenda, even tried to stop him. And as much as i understand that solders have to follow orders, they dont have to be overly brutal and unnecessarily kill unarmed civilians in concentration camps.... now read what the guards were doing in the concentration camps to people and get back to me when you did....

It's amazing how clueless of the situation one can be even after apparently studying the subject.

Do you have any idea how a totalitarian nation works?
You don't just say "hey, I don't like this!"

Cheers. Its impossible to argue with someone so clueless about what real life entails.

At bad-man, we know what went on in the fucking concentration camps, but that doesnt mean the guards weren't forced into doing what they did.
Given a choice between you n your family being shot/put in the camp, and shooting a nameless person knowing that if you refuse to shoot them someone else will do it anyway, what would you do? I'm pretty sure you'd put you, your wife and your children first.

Plus do you even know what conscription means? It means people are forced to serve in the army and answer to the generals. Many of the germans had no choice in what went on