BF2S Forums Should America stop helping countries that don't like them?

whittsend wrote:

Spark wrote:

Can someone name ONE developed country that is NOT in debt?

Please?

Anybody?

Canada.  But you are right, they are hardly a great power (not meant to offend Canadians, but facts are facts).

According to CIA Factbook Canada is 600,700,000,000 dollars (US) in debt.  Yes, facts are facts, only when they are correct and are sourced.

Edit: Copied and pasted that exact amout of debt per http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac … 9rank.html

Last edited by dubbs (2006-03-21 15:26:22)

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

All Christians believe Non-Christians are going to hell.  The Bible has twice as many violent passages as the Qu'ran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c … quran.html

And before you say that all the encouragement and incitement to violence is in the Old Testament and the New Testament is nothing but peace and love, maybe you could explain this:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

So basically whatever racist, non-sensicial gibberish you are wishing on the Muslim population of the world you are also wishing on the Christian population, by definition.

I never said that Christians weren't idiots too!  But you can't even compare the two!!!  In this MODERN world of today, do you see people blowing up cars and murdering innocent people in the name of Jesus?  Haha, I think not!  Maybe Christianity gives people the ability to think and Muslim does not...  Like I said, they are rabid-stupid monkeys...  Anyone that believes another person is going to hell because they aren't in your religion is a moron.

How about you not assume that I am a Christian or any other religion at that and find an actual attack that fits me.  Like saying that Muslim people invented pies or something, then that would affect me. 

What country are you from anyway?  You obviously think that killing people in the name of Alah is okay, because you are defending their religion.

Yes you do, ABORTION CLINIC BOMBINGS ring any bells.  What about the GOD HATES FAGS lot?  Hasn't that type of preaching actually led to people being lynched and hung out at the roadside, or did I imagine that:

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/wyom-o13.shtml

Egyptians invented pies.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pies  Is that close enough?

<SARCASM>Yes, obviously I am avocating murder because I believe that people have the right to choose any religion that want.</SARCASM>.  Do you really think we should lock up all the Buddists?  I believe if a person is guilty of murder then they must be punished for their crime.  Have you watched 'Minority Report', I know it's a bit whack but point I'm making is you can't punish people for murder just because they 'might' murder someone in the future.  Just because the Bible and Qu'ran encourage holy wars and bloodletting doesn't mean that every person who follows that religion will. 

And I am an atheist, pure and simple.  That doesn't mean I judge other people for their religions though, just those who commit crimes in the name of their religion.  I have friends and colleagues from almost every major religion, do you?

Yes, I have friends from all kinds of religions.  But most of my friends are understanding people and wouldn't tell me I was going to hell because I think differently.  And they are friends from other countires, not just Americans. 

I don't really feel like arguing on the internet about this anymore, I have exams to study for.  I respect your opinion and see the points that you are making.  Everyone thinks differently and I may not think they are right at times, but I do accept their opinions.  I appreciate a good exchange of ideas, it only makes you learn more.  So thank you.

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

I can see your point; however, rioting against repression and rioting because of a stupid muslim cartoon are VERY different.  People actually died because of the Middle-East reaction to that cartoon of the prophet mohamad.  That is absolutely rediculous!  They are like a bunch of rabid-stupid monkeys, we should put them in a cage and test shampoos on them.  Or we could lock them in the Middle-East and let them kill eachother...  I saw a table setup at my college the other day with a post that said, "Islam is a very open religion and accepting of other religions."  And then it gave examples, but they failed to metion that all muslims believe that everyone else is going to hell...  My girlfriend is an English student at my University and people from Saudia Arabia said that to her.  Open minded, yeah right.  And all the good muslims won't even come out and say that the radical musliims are bad people.  They are allowing all of the terrorists to high-jack their religion.  I try to have an open mind, but its a bunch of crap.  I saw this video of some terrorist bastards exploding an IED and then scream the jibberish that they scream after they just killed a person.  They scream something like, "Alah alechalem" or some crap that means "praise alah"...  I'm sure Alah wanted them to murder other people in his name...  If a muslim ever tries to get me I am going to start screaming "praise Alah" in arabic.  Take that Osama!  Okay, now I'm crazy...

All Christians believe Non-Christians are going to hell.  The Bible has twice as many violent passages as the Qu'ran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c … quran.html

And before you say that all the encouragement and incitement to violence is in the Old Testament and the New Testament is nothing but peace and love, maybe you could explain this:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

So basically whatever racist, non-sensicial gibberish you are wishing on the Muslim population of the world you are also wishing on the Christian population, by definition.

I never said that Christians weren't idiots too!  But you can't even compare the two!!!  In this MODERN world of today, do you see people blowing up cars and murdering innocent people in the name of Jesus?  Haha, I think not!  Maybe Christianity gives people the ability to think and Muslim does not...  Like I said, they are rabid-stupid monkeys...  Anyone that believes another person is going to hell because they aren't in your religion is a moron.

How about you not assume that I am a Christian or any other religion at that and find an actual attack that fits me.  Like saying that Muslim people invented pies or something, then that would affect me. 

What country are you from anyway?  You obviously think that killing people in the name of Alah is okay, because you are defending their religion.

If did not know this, but every religion believes that if you do not share the same faith that  you are going to be punished.  Some are not as horrible as Hell, but Christians believe that if  you do not say Jesus it the Savior of the world then you are going to Hell.  Islam says that if you do not follow Allah's commands and submit to Him, that is what the work Muslim means, then you will be punished.  (I am not very familiar with the Islam text, so I do not know if they speak about Hell). 

Also, someone stated that Islam is a religion of peace, I have one question, when Islam was spreading throught the Middle East, and even today, that the religious leaders stated that you had to covert to Islam or die?  Christians do not kill, or try to kill anyone who does not covert to their religion.  Christians also do not have a pasage in the Bible that states if you are in a Holy War then you automatically go to Paradise.  Jesus taught peace, both in the Christian and Isamic religion.  The difference between God/Allah is that the Christians believe that God/Allah is loving, where Islam believe that God/Allah is strict.  Based just on this fact, it would make fact alone, it would seem that Islam is a more violant religion then Christianity.

Yes, there are sect in Christianity, just like Islam, that take certain teaching in the religion to far.  You stated that bombing in the the American South as an example, I am going to say that the Taliban are and example of the Isamic version.  Just like the people of Islam look down on those who take the teaching too far, so do Christians.  (On more thing, the Christian world punish those who do things like this, and the Islamic world praised/worships/idols those people.)


Edit: I also have something to say but forget it.  How did this turn into a religious thread when the original question was Should America stop helping countried that do not like them?  There are other nations that are not Islamic that do not like America so much that it borders on hate.  Here is some: China, Vietnam, Korea, and Russia (somehat) so lets get off of the religion issue and back on the main issue.

Last edited by dubbs (2006-03-21 18:23:52)

dubbs wrote:

whittsend wrote:

Spark wrote:

Can someone name ONE developed country that is NOT in debt?

Please?

Anybody?

Canada.  But you are right, they are hardly a great power (not meant to offend Canadians, but facts are facts).

According to CIA Factbook Canada is 600,700,000,000 dollars (US) in debt.  Yes, facts are facts, only when they are correct and are sourced.

Edit: Copied and pasted that exact amout of debt per http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac … 9rank.html

You are, of course, correct.  My mistake (I was thinking of the fact that they have a budget surplus, which obviously is not the same thing).

BUT, when I said facts are facts, I was referring to the part about Canada not being a great power.  It's not.  Further, there's no need to be snide about the errors of others.  A simple correction would do, and would, in fact, be appreciated.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

All Christians believe Non-Christians are going to hell.  The Bible has twice as many violent passages as the Qu'ran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c … quran.html

Ummm... the site you linked says the Bible is 5 times bigger than the Quran but the Quran has 2 times the amount of violet passages when looking at percentages.  Read your source before pasting it.  Also from your source, "Of course this analysis does not consider the extent of the cruelty in the marked passages. And that is an important consideration."  But hey, it didn't fit with your comment, "The Bible has twice as many violent passages as the Quran." 

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

And before you say that all the encouragement and incitement to violence is in the Old Testament and the New Testament is nothing but peace and love, maybe you could explain this:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

Did you read any of the Bible's verses or did you read SAB's interpretation?  Read each one and see if you are correct.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

So basically whatever racist, non-sensicial gibberish you are wishing on the Muslim population of the world you are also wishing on the Christian population, by definition.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Yes you do, ABORTION CLINIC BOMBINGS ring any bells.  What about the GOD HATES FAGS lot?  Hasn't that type of preaching actually led to people being lynched and hung out at the roadside, or did I imagine that:

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/wyom-o13.shtml

These people aren't preaching the Bible but their own hate.  Show me where the Bible says to lynch and kill/hate fags.  Thanks.  Read GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.

But you're an atheist and couldn't understand that those who kill/hate are not from Jesus.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Just because the Bible and Qu'ran encourage holy wars and bloodletting doesn't mean that every person who follows that religion will.

Show me where the Bible encourages holy wars and I'll never post again.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

And I am an atheist, pure and simple.

It shows.

B.Schuss wrote:

I always wonder wether Bush would have invaded Iraq if 09/11 had never happened...

Bush made it very clear before he was even elected that Iraq would be the 'focus' of his Middle East 'policy.'

I suspect he would have found a reason even without 9/11.

Try not to make fun of someone's English and turn around and do the same.  It makes you look bad.

jonnykill wrote:

I don't want to even get into the religion part of this so I'll make it short and sweet . George Bush is the worst president the people of the United States has EVER had to suffer .

No spaces between the last word and the period.

jonnykill wrote:

It's embarassing to be labled an American these days because I don't want to be identified with that POS .

Read the above.

jonnykill wrote:

He has not one ounce of leadership skills at all .

Wow, and you made fun of Bush?

jonnykill wrote:

He can bearly command the English language for Christ sakes .

Here too.  And it would be possive since you're implying His sake.

jonnykill wrote:

He picked a fight that's going to last for the next 50 years , and still manages to have a smirk on his face at new conferences acting as if we are winning something . Ask me , he could have saved face by getting out of Iraq when the Iraqis drafted a constitution . The very next day we should have left . Our mission was acomplished - we took Saddam out and killed his sons , we made sure there was no WMD's and we made a "spark of Cemocracy " Iraq as he put it .

What is a "Cemocracy"?  It should read, "we made sure there *were* no WMDs."

jonnykill wrote:

Get everyone out and concentrate on defending the states , the only country I care about .Our forces are spread far too thin.

There are 2 spaces between a period and the beginning of the next sentence in written English.

jonnykill wrote:

It's not our job to rebuild countries , it's our job to protect ours .
Bush created a domino effect . Not only are all Muslim countries filled with radicals that want us dead North Korea is now stating they have the right to attack America first - with nukes . Iran is flipping us the bird on Nuke progams . China sits on the sidelines building an Army 6 times the size of ours . I'm not a WWW3 freak , I'm just reviewing the situtaion . And it's looks like shit , and so does our president .

There are too many to continue.  The same applies with commas.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Marconius wrote:

Try the Old Testament, wannabe.  Holy Wars, violence in the name of god, Soddom and Gomorrah, Mass Murder, it's all in there.  Of course, christians aren't supposed to go into the OT because the nature of the religion is to Only follow the teachings of jesus, so many of them miss out on the OT violence.

Bible literalists and christian reconstructivists don't miss it...they use that to fuel their actions and hatred, even though they disregard the teachings of jesus and still call themselves christians.

The New Testament isn't all flowers and hugs either.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

Here is your cruelty, UnOriginalNuttah.  This site is easilty debunked.
----------------------
skeptics annotated bible's (SAB hereafter) nterpretation- "Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament."  Matthew 5:17 is the verse they are referring to.

MT 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Somethings off here... maybe they have no clue what the Law is or what the Prophets preached.  Where are they referring to in that verse.
----------------------
SAB's interpretation - "Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave." Referring to Mark 5:12-13.

MK 12 The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

How is doing what was asked of Him cruel?  If I asked you for a dollar and you gave it to me would people call you cruel?
----------------------
SAB - "God strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel's words." Referring to Luke 1:20

LK 20 "And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."

Dumb, back in 1611, means mute or they can't speak. 
---------------------
SAB - "As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed." referring to John 3:16.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Seems like a gift to me?  I live because of my beliefs in His atoning sacrifice.  And like you said about the countries in the Human Rights Coucil, one has to know there is a problem before one can address it.  If you don't know your current state you will never see a need for a Savior.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

---------------------

Your site is farfetched in its ability to interpret the Bible and claim it as cruel.  But from a biased standpoint, anything can be looked upon as cruel.

Last edited by wannabe_tank_whore (2006-03-22 11:35:18)

Surely, the real question here, is not whether there was violence in the Bible, we all know there was.

The question is, do the Bible or the Koran, explicitly incite violence?

One can say that something violent once took place without saying it should take place again.  My concern is, do either explicitly recommend the use of violence to further the principles of the religion.

The above is a question, not a rhetorical device: I have heard conflicting reports regarding the Koran, but I don't recall ever hearing that the Bible does that.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Your site is farfetched in its ability to interpret the Bible and claim it as cruel.  But from a biased standpoint, anything can be looked upon as cruel.

Like when you look at the Qu'ran perhaps?

Anyway, did I imagine the medieval torture and burning of heretics, which was how people in thoses times interpreted the New Testament?  What has actually happened is that Christianity has been toned down over a period of Centuries to focus on the more positive aspects.  I didn't say this was a bad thing, I merely indicated that there are passages which can and have been interpreted as justification for violence.  The Spanish Inquisition wasn't just a Monty Python sketch, you know.

Oh and wannabe (note, you said 'Bible', not 'New Testament'):

Joshua 11:20, "For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses."

Although I sincerely doubt you'll hold true to your word about stopping posting.

EDIT: Damn, should have done a refresh, Marconius beat me to it.

EDIT: P.s.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

And I am an atheist, pure and simple.

It shows.

Why, because I defend the rights of every person to choose and practice any religion they want provided they do not commit crimes in the name of said religion?  I suppose you're right, if I were a Christian I would only defend the rights of every human to practice religions I intepret as non-violent and non-threatening to Christianity.

Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-03-22 12:54:35)

As I said, "holy wars" is just semantics!  And here is Yahweh's Battles - 1 Samuel 18:17, Saul to David, ffs.  Read the OT.

Our point is that christianity is no better than the Qur'an as many of the stories in the bible are of heroes that defeated enemies in the name of their god.  Both books are written completely differently, so while the Qur'an is written as Mohammed speaking to the reader, the bible is a history novel depicting acts by god and performed by people in god's name.

The exact same psychological extremist concepts exist in both religions, as proven by terrorist bombers and abortion clinic bombers...they are just presented and taught very differently, and can manifest themselves in many different ways.  Suicide bombing is their extremism, while christian reconstructivism is the other side of the coin.  There's a lot more to Why the Islamic extremists carry out such missions than just faith alone.  Faith is just the catalyst.  Syriana has one of the best explanations and views on it that I've even seen, but you probably won't watch it.

B.Schuss wrote:

Renegade2k9 wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

well, to be honest most of the criticism seems to be coming from your own country lately, not from Europe.
It is true that a lot of european countries strongly opposed the war in Iraq, for obvious reasons.
People tend to feel strongly about such national issues, and I believe that emotions were riding high on both sides of the atlantic. I think what bugged us Europeans most was that the US somehow seemed to believe that because of the help we received from America in WWII we now had some kind of moral obligation  to follow them in this war in Iraq. 
I had the impression that the US public and the media were not really holding back either, by the way, calling us Europeans all sorts of things, simply because we chose not to participate in the war. And if you say that the media coverage from Europa wasn't really america-friendly at that time, I must tell you I had the impression  coverage in US media wasn't Europe-friendly either. So I think it works both ways.
As far as news reports go, I don't think you should form an opinion on the basis of what the media shows you.
They only show you what they think fits their agenda best. No difference over here, by the way.

Why not try to talk to some people from that region before forming an opinion ?
I'd be glad to discuss any of this with you.

I think you'd be surprised to find out how many europeans actually supported the war in Iraq. Just as surprised as I was when I found out that some people in the US actually opposed the war.

I have always believed it is best to keep an open mind and not fall for prejudice.

Well hey its nothing personal either. But I did not paint my full picture based on just news, I hear from many forums people from Europe complaining about the US and they make it personal. Instead of keeping it to the president (which I can care less if they make fun of) they go and start making negative comments about the country, government (Excluding George Bush), and especially the painting of all US citizens as: Ignorant, Stupid, Fat, Violent, etc. I viewed that as being fairly ignorant and started doing the same of European citizens. I am not the kind of person that turns the other cheek I say something back. But you are right its best to keep a open mind because you can learn much. Just wondering though not trying to be smart did Europe ever properly pay back the US for aiding them during the two world wars?

Well, I was born in 1975, I have no idea wether there even was an agreement to pay te US back for the help we received through the marshall plan after WWII. I'll need to look that one up, I am afraid.

I think we agree that prejudice about the other nation is obvious on both sides of the atlantic. Who started it isn't really important to me. It's like two kids fighting on the school yard, each one accusing the other of having started the fight.

As far as the War on Terror is concerned, I strongly believe most european governments didn't really consider the security situation in Iraq and/or Al'Quaeda that big of a concern for them even after 09/11.
Both issues were perceived as problems for the US, since neither Iraq nor Al'Quaeda posed a threat to our security at that time.

As far as the Iraq is concerned, I still believe they did not pose a threat to the west , let alone to the security of the US.

Al'Quaeda is a different story, but isn't it surprising that apart from Spain and Britain ( both partners of the US in Iraq, I believe ) no other major European country has been targeted by muslim terrorists ?

I always wonder wether Bush would have invaded Iraq if 09/11 had never happened...

Well the reason for this prejudice is difference in opinion. Which is kinda stupid, we all have our rights to our opinions. The war on terror goes well beyond Iraq, its just a general description. Even though I think the timing of the Iraq war was poor I think it should of been done when we were at war with them the first time. They invaded and attempted to plunder Kuwait and that should of been enough to invade the first time and take him out of power. I don't think Iraq would of been invaded without 9/11 though, it is what sparked the war. If 9/11 never happened the past five years would of been much different.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

"Read the OT."  It took you to find a certain translation to prove your point about Yahweh's Battles.  And I have read it...  3 times.  That's much more than you can say about either religion.

If it's "just semantics" then why does the Quran command killings of infidels?  Not in past tense but in present.  Yet Jesus never once said to hurt, kidnap, or maim your enemy.

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

If you are so totally blind to my point then stop posting after this.

Read my previous post about those who commit violent acts in the name of Christianity.  If you haven't picked up on it yet, those people are not the adopted sons and daughters of God.

Well, you should've known about the wars and battles in the OT if you've read it three times.  I can find tons of other sources that show the exact same wording...it's what I have to do, since I can't just walk in your front door and point out the fucking passage in the bible that you have open next to you...

Stop trying to sugar-coat the bible and realize what it really is.  You are stuck in your New-testament christian beliefs that no one called a 'christian' can commit atrocities.  This is exactly what the millions of other Muslims feel in the world about the Islamic fundamentalist extremists.  That's perfectly fine, since that's exactly what the NT preaches...my point is that there is violence carried out in the names of the gods in both the bible and the Qur'an and extremists on both sides will call upon it as justification.  You will not pay attention to the violent OT god, and extremists will fail to interpret the peaceful passages of the Qur'an.

There are passages in the Qur'an which call for the jihad, and alternatively god rains fire down on Soddom and Gomorrah and wipes all of humanity out with a flood, with the exception of Noah and his ark.  It's a point-of-view debate, as the Qur'an is a message from Mohammed, and the bible is written as a history book.

And you can stop quoting the bible at me since I already know it, plus it's pointless to get into a "Let's quote the bible at each other!" debate with a christian.  There is always a major loss when it comes down to an NT vs. OT ethical debate.  The NT says one thing (christian dogma), the OT explains how the NT got there (extremism when taken literally), and the Qur'an can be followed strictly (fundamentalist extremism) or followed just like you follow the NT (the rest of the Muslim world).

Rather than have justification for christian atrocities and the christian belief set bound together into one full book, á la the Qur'an, it's split into the OT and the NT, and christians mainly learn from the NT as that is the very definition of their faith and are never strongly brought up knowing the OT.