Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6798|132 and Bush

mafia996630 wrote:

"accused of being a Qadari, as some have questioned his dependability.[3] Because of this, highly notable scholars including Imam Bukhari hardly ever used his narratives."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq)
Because of free will? .. Shouldn't that be a plus in terms of accuracy?

Bukhari 58:148 wrote:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.148

Some people (i.e. the Jews of Bani bin Quraiza) agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Muadh so the Prophet sent for him (i.e. Sad bin Muadh). He came riding a donkey, and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said, "Get up for the best amongst you." or said, "Get up for your chief." Then the Prophet said, "O Sad! These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sad said, "I judge that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have given a judgment similar to Allah's Judgment (or the King's judgment)."
At the very least we must agree that muhammad approved the murders.

What the qu'ran says about Qurayza
033.026
YUSUFALI: And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.
PICKTHAL: And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
SHAKIR: And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc … ml#033.026
The Qur’an is Allah’s private conversation with Muhammad. Some you slew/killed and ye made captive some. Is the qu'ran a notable book in the muslim faith?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d

mafia996630 wrote:

"accused of being a Qadari, as some have questioned his dependability.[3] Because of this, highly notable scholars including Imam Bukhari hardly ever used his narratives."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq)
Because of free will? .. Shouldn't that be a plus in terms of accuracy?
That has nothing to do with what we were discussing in relation to Ibn Ishaq. FYi, its not free will in terms of what he can say or not say. Its free will in terms of the following:

"Qadaris maintain that Allah gave man free will, without which one cannot be fully accountable for one's actions. Free will also means that Allah cannot know a man's actions in advance. Qadaris also deny other core tenants of Sunni belief including the belief in the Punishment of the Grave"

Like i said before, Ibn Ishaq is probz not even a Muslim if he denies that God is all knowing.

Bukhari 58:148 wrote:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.148

Some people (i.e. the Jews of Bani bin Quraiza) agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Muadh so the Prophet sent for him (i.e. Sad bin Muadh). He came riding a donkey, and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said, "Get up for the best amongst you." or said, "Get up for your chief." Then the Prophet said, "O Sad! These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sad said, "I judge that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have given a judgment similar to Allah's Judgment (or the King's judgment)."
At the very least we must agree that muhammad approved the murders.
Murders is the wrong word,its all about the context. But yeah i agree along those lines. In relation to Banu Qurayza, refer to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Analysis.

The Qur’an is Allah’s private conversation with Muhammad. Some you slew/killed and ye made captive some. Is the qu'ran a notable book in the muslim faith?
From what i have heard, its mostly in the form of revelation and conversation with an angels or something. Am pretty sure the Qur'an is the most important book in the Muslim faith.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina
Just a side point here, but how is being a non-Muslim a mark against someone's accuracy in researching Islam?

In many ways, being an outsider provides an objectivity to research that is nearly impossible to achieve if one is part of the subject researched.

For example, most theologians are either agnostic or atheist.  Some of the best research of Christian history has been done by non-believers.  Why can't the same be possible for Islam?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6798|132 and Bush

mafia996630 wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

"accused of being a Qadari, as some have questioned his dependability.[3] Because of this, highly notable scholars including Imam Bukhari hardly ever used his narratives."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq)
Because of free will? .. Shouldn't that be a plus in terms of accuracy?
That has nothing to do with what we were discussing in relation to Ibn Ishaq. FYi, its not free will in terms of what he can say or not say. Its free will in terms of the following:

"Qadaris maintain that Allah gave man free will, without which one cannot be fully accountable for one's actions. Free will also means that Allah cannot know a man's actions in advance. Qadaris also deny other core tenants of Sunni belief including the belief in the Punishment of the Grave"

Like i said before, Ibn Ishaq is probz not even a Muslim if he denies that God is all knowing.
I've added additional evidence since you've got that vague "fishy feeling" about the character of Ibn Ishaq. Even though his version is is the earliest surviving traditional biography. A version that was actually relatively close to the actual time of Muhammad.

mafia996630]

Bukhari 58:148 wrote:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.148

Some people (i.e. the Jews of Bani bin Quraiza) agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Muadh so the Prophet sent for him (i.e. Sad bin Muadh). He came riding a donkey, and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said, "Get up for the best amongst you." or said, "Get up for your chief." Then the Prophet said, "O Sad! These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sad said, "I judge that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have given a judgment similar to Allah's Judgment (or the King's judgment)."
At the very least we must agree that Muhammad approved the murders.
Murders is the wrong word,its all about the context. But yeah i agree along those lines. In relation to Banu Qurayza, refer to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Analysis.
They were unarmed and surrendered.. context = murder.

mafia996630 wrote:

The Qur’an is Allah’s private conversation with Muhammad. Some you slew/killed and ye made captive some. Is the qu'ran a notable book in the Muslim faith?
From what i have heard, its mostly in the form of revelation and conversation with an angels or something. Am pretty sure the Qur'an is the most important book in the Muslim faith.
"Qur’an is regarded as God's revelation to Muhammad". We know and accept that he took captives. The Qu'ran verifies this and it's easy to put the pieces together. Why would we alter the interpretation when it says that Muhammad (a military man) "slew"/killed? It's a rather convenient thing to do.. it smells fishy.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Warhammer
Member
+18|5878

mafia996630 wrote:

Warhammer wrote:

JahManRed, remember that some of the old testament rules changed in the New Testament, and it was different during those times back in the Old Testament.
Making the old testament obsolete ?
No. It is important to read. You can learn lessons from it. I didn't say all rules.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6913
Muslim women speak out.... they are tired of living in fear... good for them
http://azizaizmargari.wordpress.com/200 … mmunities/
Love is the answer
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6959

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Muslim women speak out.... they are tired of living in fear... good for them
http://azizaizmargari.wordpress.com/200 … mmunities/
i would start wearing clothes with steel collars for a while but good for them.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6959

Turquoise wrote:

Just a side point here, but how is being a non-Muslim a mark against someone's accuracy in researching Islam?

In many ways, being an outsider provides an objectivity to research that is nearly impossible to achieve if one is part of the subject researched.

For example, most theologians are either agnostic or atheist.  Some of the best research of Christian history has been done by non-believers.  Why can't the same be possible for Islam?
nobody knows anything about religion tbh.  its the people who think radical islam is created because of poverty that need to have their heads examined.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6848|USA

Stubbee wrote:

lowing wrote:

12/f/taiwan wrote:

Lowing do you fear Muslims are a threat to the world and society?
I consider Wahabism a threat to the world especially to western society. It would appear Muslims should fear Wahabism as well.
FIXED
I'm sorry, did I miss where the guy in the OP practiced Wahabism?
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d

Warhammer wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

Warhammer wrote:

JahManRed, remember that some of the old testament rules changed in the New Testament, and it was different during those times back in the Old Testament.
Making the old testament obsolete ?
No. It is important to read. You can learn lessons from it. I didn't say all rules.
Essentially what your trying to say is that some of God's rules have become obsolete ?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6848|USA
http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2009/ … award.html


and apparently CAIR loved this guy.....another piece of info that does not surprise me
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d

mafia996630 wrote:

Because of free will? .. Shouldn't that be a plus in terms of accuracy?
That has nothing to do with what we were discussing in relation to Ibn Ishaq. FYi, its not free will in terms of what he can say or not say. Its free will in terms of the following:

"Qadaris maintain that Allah gave man free will, without which one cannot be fully accountable for one's actions. Free will also means that Allah cannot know a man's actions in advance. Qadaris also deny other core tenants of Sunni belief including the belief in the Punishment of the Grave"

Like i said before, Ibn Ishaq is probz not even a Muslim if he denies that God is all knowing.
I've added additional evidence since you've got that vague "fishy feeling" about the character of Ibn Ishaq. Even though his version is is the earliest surviving traditional biography. A version that was actually relatively close to the actual time of Muhammad.
What additional evidence ?

Ibn Isḥaq wrote several works, none of which survive. His collection of traditions about the life of Muhammad survives mainly in two sources:

    * an edited copy, or recension, of his work by his student al-Bakka'i, as further edited by Ibn Hisham. Al-Bakka'i's work has perished and only Ibn Hisham's has survived, in copies. (Donner 1998, p. 132)
    * an edited copy, or recension, prepared by his student Salamah ibn Fadl al-Ansari. This also has perished, and survives only in the copious extracts to be found in the volumimous historian al-Tabari's. (Donner 1998, p. 132)
    * fragments of several other recensions. Guillaume lists them on p. xxx of his preface, but regards most of them as so fragmentary as to be of little worth.
Some of his work still exist but in a watered-down/Edited form. And yeah his version was probz one of the earliest BUT that doesn't make it a fact. Now i will repeat my point again, he is considered to be a Qadariyah, who were rebuked by companions of Muhammad, and you can't get anything closer to Muhammad then his companions.

Also his work contained Greek philosophy, Islam and Greek philosophy don't mix. End off.

mafia996630]
At the very least we must agree that Muhammad approved the murders.
Murders is the wrong word,its all about the context. But yeah i agree along those lines. In relation to Banu Qurayza, refer to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Analysis.
They were unarmed and surrendered.. context = murder.
Form what I have read, it could bee seen either way. it could be seen to be justified because the Muslims were trying to prevent further war or "urayza broke the pact with Muhammad, and thus Muhammad was justified in repudiating his side of the pact and declaring war on the Qurayza" as the Qur'an justifies it.

the Aws was also charged with killing a group of Qurayza men.[21][41] Subhash Inamdar argues that this was done in order to avoid the risk of further conflicts between Muhammad and the Aws. According to Inamdar, Muhammad wanted to distance himself from the events and, had he been involved, would have risked alienating some of the Aws
Also note, it is not fact that they were all murdered :

Walid N. Arafat and Barakat Ahmad have disputed that the Banu Qurayza were killed on a large scale.[58] Arafat disputes large-scale killings and argued that Ibn Ishaq gathered information from descendants of the Qurayza Jews, who embellished or manufactured the details of the incident.[59] Ahmad argues that only some of the leaders of the tribe were killed, while some of the fighters were taken prisoners.[60][61] Watt finds Arafat's arguments "not entirely convincing"[1], while Meir J. Kister has contradicted[clarification needed] the arguments of Arafat and Ahmad.[62]
^^^Se again, what Ibn Ishaq said is being bought into question.


mafia996630 wrote:

The Qur’an is Allah’s private conversation with Muhammad. Some you slew/killed and ye made captive some. Is the qu'ran a notable book in the Muslim faith?
From what i have heard, its mostly in the form of revelation and conversation with an angels or something. Am pretty sure the Qur'an is the most important book in the Muslim faith.
"Qur’an is regarded as God's revelation to Muhammad". We know and accept that he took captives. The Qu'ran verifies this and it's easy to put the pieces together. Why would we alter the interpretation when it says that Muhammad (a military man) "slew"/killed? It's a rather convenient thing to do.. it smells fishy.
I am sure Muhammed did kill people. i am not debating against that.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d
Request title change of thread to:

OFFICIAL ISLAM BASHING THREAD ?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6848|USA

mafia996630 wrote:

Request title change of thread to:

OFFICIAL ISLAM BASHING THREAD ?
Why because Islam is the proud supprted of honor killings? Hey if they are ashamed of it, then they should stop practicing it as part of their beliefs.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7007|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

Request title change of thread to:

OFFICIAL ISLAM BASHING THREAD ?
Why because Islam is the proud supprted of honor killings? Hey if they are ashamed of it, then they should stop practicing it as part of their beliefs.
Honor killings are more of a cultural phenomenon lowing ... not so much religion as you would like to think ...

Where does Islam proudly support honor killings btw?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d

lowing wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

Request title change of thread to:

OFFICIAL ISLAM BASHING THREAD ?
Why because Islam is the proud supprted of honor killings? Hey if they are ashamed of it, then they should stop practicing it as part of their beliefs.
Because an Islam bashing thread is what it has become.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6608|'Murka

mafia996630 wrote:

Warhammer wrote:

JahManRed, remember that some of the old testament rules changed in the New Testament, and it was different during those times back in the Old Testament.
Making the old testament obsolete ?
In a way, yes. Not completely obsolete, but certainly no longer the driving force behind the teachings.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d

FEOS wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

Warhammer wrote:

JahManRed, remember that some of the old testament rules changed in the New Testament, and it was different during those times back in the Old Testament.
Making the old testament obsolete ?
In a way, yes. Not completely obsolete, but certainly no longer the driving force behind the teachings.
Like i said to warhammer. Does that mean, "in a way" God's word has become obsolete ?
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6608|'Murka

mafia996630 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:


Making the old testament obsolete ?
In a way, yes. Not completely obsolete, but certainly no longer the driving force behind the teachings.
Like i said to warhammer. Does that mean, "in a way" God's word has become obsolete ?
No, otherwise the New Testament would be obsolete as well, as it is also God's Word.

Aspects of the OT have been overtaken (at least to Christians) by the NT. That does not mean that the entirety of the OT is obsolete.

That's like saying Newtonian physics is obsolete because we now have a grasp of quantum physics. One led to the other. It didn't become completely obsolete in the leading.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d

FEOS wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

FEOS wrote:


In a way, yes. Not completely obsolete, but certainly no longer the driving force behind the teachings.
Like i said to warhammer. Does that mean, "in a way" God's word has become obsolete ?
No, otherwise the New Testament would be obsolete as well, as it is also God's Word.

Aspects of the OT have been overtaken (at least to Christians) by the NT. That does not mean that the entirety of the OT is obsolete.

That's like saying Newtonian physics is obsolete because we now have a grasp of quantum physics. One led to the other. It didn't become completely obsolete in the leading.
Your saying is that some parts are kind off obsolete while the rest have been overtaken ?

Would you say that it is an upgrade ?
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|6784|sWEEDen
Who are we to say that the laws / words of the lord are obsolete?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6848|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

Request title change of thread to:

OFFICIAL ISLAM BASHING THREAD ?
Why because Islam is the proud supprted of honor killings? Hey if they are ashamed of it, then they should stop practicing it as part of their beliefs.
Honor killings are more of a cultural phenomenon lowing ... not so much religion as you would like to think ...

Where does Islam proudly support honor killings btw?
Islam, as has been pointed out before is more than just a religion, it is a way of life, a CULTURE.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Who are we to say that the laws / words of the lord are obsolete?
Logic dictates, if you are overtaking/upgrading a book of rules, the old rules become somewhat obsolete.

Who are you to deny my logical thinking ? (see what I did there, elitemeyes)
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6848|USA

mafia996630 wrote:

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Who are we to say that the laws / words of the lord are obsolete?
Logic dictates, if you are overtaking/upgrading a book of rules, the old rules become somewhat obsolete.

Who are you to deny my logical thinking ? (see what I did there, elitemeyes)
stop being a smart ass, FEOS is right. For Christians, their is a NEW Covenant with God. It is called the New Testament. It is the word of the Lord Jesus Christ and it does replace the Old Covenant the OLD Testament. It does not deny its existence or the significance, but it is replaced by the teachings of Christ. For Christians that is.


Pretty much the reason why the followers of CHRIST call themselves CHRISTians
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6960|d

lowing wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Who are we to say that the laws / words of the lord are obsolete?
Logic dictates, if you are overtaking/upgrading a book of rules, the old rules become somewhat obsolete.

Who are you to deny my logical thinking ? (see what I did there, elitemeyes)
stop being a smart ass, FEOS is right. For Christians, their is a NEW Covenant with God. It is called the New Testament. It is the word of the Lord Jesus Christ and it does replace the Old Covenant the OLD Testament. It does not deny its existence or the significance, but it is replaced by the teachings of Christ. For Christians that is.


Pretty much the reason why the followers of CHRIST call themselves CHRISTians
Can't help being a smart arse . Anywho's I don't understand why the Lord being all mighty and all knowing needs to replace/upgrade his holy books ?

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