BF2S Forums Hamas 'would recognise' pre-1967 Israel

Dilbert_X wrote:

Hamas have offered to recognise Israel multiple times, they've offered to negotiate multiple times.
Israel are not even prepared to speak to Hamas.

If the world forced Israel to negotiate and give peace to the Palestinians Hamas would eventually melt away.
And we should stop meddling in Palestinian politics as it has consistently backfired.

Khaled Abu Toameh: Just before the ceasefire expired, Hamas went to Egypt and said “Listen, folks. We agreed to the previous ceasefire because you, the Egyptians, promised us you would open the Rafah border crossing. And it didn't happen. And we, Hamas, were committed to this. We did our best to honor the ceasefire.”

Okay, there were some violations here and there, but Hamas did in a way honor the ceasefire. They arrested people who were firing at Israel.

Mubarak said “To hell with it. I'm not going to open the Rafah border crossing unless you allow Mahmoud Abbas to come back into Gaza. Do whatever you want. I'm under pressure from the Israelis, the Americans, and Mahmoud Abbas not to open the Rafah border crossing.”

Terrific, so the US and Israel pressured Egypt into violating the ceasefire agreement by maintaining the blockade on Gaza (Abbas is irrelevant), and Israel blockaded its borders with Gaza to complete the stranglehold.
And Hamas is somehow to blame?

Vax wrote:

I suggest again reading that article, and then ask if you think Hamas (as portrayed here in this topic)  are 'willing negotiators' or, even capable responsible actors at all

Yes, having read the article I'd say Hamas are, having kept up their end of the ceasefire for several years when Israel didn't.

Some snippets below.

Khaled Abu Toameh: Look. I believe this war could have been prevented. Really. Had we gone to Hosni Mubarak and the Americans and said “Okay, let's forget about the 2005 agreement. Let's come up with a new agreement.” Hamas would have agreed to have some Palestinian Authority representatives at the border in return. But no one wanted to listen. They all said “Bring down Hamas, bring down Hamas.”

Seems pretty clear what the problem is here TBH.
Israel doesn't want peace, nor did the previous American administration, they just want to look tough bombing people they've labelled 'terrorists', never mind how many civilians get slaughtered in the process.

To answer your question, Hamas thought that if they fire rockets at Israel that the Israeli public would revolt and start complaining and would go to their leaders and say “Go and find some kind of solution.” Israelis don't want war and can't afford to have war on the eve of elections. So they thought the Israeli public would revolt, that the Egyptian government would come back and negotiate a new ceasefire of Hamas' terms. They really thought these rockets would bring about some kind of international response or a response from the Israeli public.

So Hamas' objective is not simply wanton terrorism, just to force a long term agreement negotiated with the various international parties.

Good article, nice find.

LOL,  you are demented.
 

Seems like you missed this part

Khaled Abu Toameh wrote:

The question we should ask ourselves in the wake of this scenario is whether or not there is really a partner on the Palestinian side for any deal, let alone a peace agreement. Any kind of deal. Is there really a partner on the Palestinian side? And the answer is simple. No.

Hamas is not a partner for any peace agreement because Hamas is not going to change. All these people who believe that Hamas will one day change its ideology, that pragmatic leaders will emerge in Hamas, these people are living under illusions. Hamas is not going to change. To their credit we must say that their message has been very clear. It's the same message in Arabic and in English. They're being very honest about it. They're saying “Folks, we will never recognize Israel. We will never change. We will not abandon the path of the resistance.” They're very clear about it.

After they won the election, by the way, the international community went to Hamas and said “Listen. If you want us to deal with you, accept Israel and everything will be okay.” And Hamas was very honest. They said “No. We are not going to renounce terrorism. We are not going to recognize previous agreements between Palestinians and Israel. And we are not going to recognize Israel's right to exist.” They were very clear about it. And they say the same thing today.

"they were very clear about it"..... D'oh.

So go on thinking that hamas are 'ready to negotiate';  be willfully duped, in your case, I don't care.


Hopefully others with some more sense read this stuff and it helps rid the misconceptions, because the people in the west who parrot the anti-israel line are only helping despots stay in power

Khaled Abu Toameh wrote:

Well, to us it does make sense. This is how our Arab dictators survive. They constantly blame the miseries of our people on the Jews and the West and the Crusaders and the infidels and the Zionist lobby and the imperialists. They use all these slogans. Arab leaders always need to make sure that their people are busy hating somebody else, preferably the Jews and the Americans. Otherwise their people might rebel, and God forbid they might demand reforms and democracy.

So go on thinking that hamas are 'ready to negotiate';  be willfully duped, in your case, I don't care.

The one paragraph you quoted contradicts the rest of the article and the actual actions of Hamas.

They have negotiated in the past and created successful agreements, its clear they would negotiate in the future.
Its Israeli actions which have sown the seeds for the rise of Hamas, they are the ones to blame.

If they can even agree some basic framework and stop blockading the Gaza civilians Hamas will eventually dissolve.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-02-04 16:15:46)

Lets see...thousands of years fighting over the same strip of dirt. Every major religion calls this area sacred and believes it has rights to it. Temples built on mosques, mosques built on churches. Killing each other over the religions who basically worship the same God but in a different language. Do you people really think this will ever stop...............Seriously, people in here debate constantly about this and believe they know what side is right or wrong. They will never stop fighting long enough to realize that they should all be trying to share it.

Nothing is going to change now and probably not in the next 1,000 years. You can display all the maps, borders and point fingers at each other in here and debate about who killed who and who did what first and who is more a terrorist than the other. Honestly, you guys act the same way both of the sides act over this land. Blame, blame, blame, whine, whine, whine and the attitude of "he started it!"

It amazes me how people act the same over this strip of land..even in this forum....the last word, the last bullet and it goes on and on just like the constant threads about Israel and Palestinians....never ending circle of words and violence.

san4 wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Lets see...thousands of years fighting over the same strip of dirt. Every major religion calls this area sacred and believes it has rights to it. Temples built on mosques, mosques built on churches. Killing each other over the religions who basically worship the same God but in a different language. Do you people really think this will ever stop...............Seriously, people in here debate constantly about this and believe they know what side is right or wrong. They will never stop fighting long enough to realize that they should all be trying to share it.

Nothing is going to change now and probably not in the next 1,000 years. You can display all the maps, borders and point fingers at each other in here and debate about who killed who and who did what first and who is more a terrorist than the other. Honestly, you guys act the same way both of the sides act over this land. Blame, blame, blame, whine, whine, whine and the attitude of "he started it!"

It amazes me how people act the same over this strip of land..even in this forum....the last word, the last bullet and it goes on and on just like the constant threads about Israel and Palestinians....never ending circle of words and violence.

You mean like the never-ending circle of violence between Israel and Egypt? And Israel and Jordan? They had all-out war in the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's and 1970's, but today they have peace treaties and peace.

There is a huge difference....no one is claiming the lands of Jordan and Egypt as their religious and sacred earth(except for Jordan and Egypt themselves). All the major religions claim Jerusalem to be theirs and they believe they have rights to it or to be a part of it. That is why their are layers of buildings upon buildings upon buildings over the centuries. We are talking about the epicenter of what they all believe everything started for their religions. If Israel and Palestine thought that Cairo was the center of their religions and ancestral land.....you damn well better believe they would be fighting there too. This strip of land was and always will be controversial and there will always be blood shed because they just don't believe the other side deserves it. "We were here first, it is our birth right, it is our sacred land, it is our religious right and God gave it to us"....we will continue to hear that for ages to come and I don't see it changing any time soon.

Maybe some day they will realize that they all worship the same God under different languages and realize what an ass they all have been...but I am not going to hold my breath. Until then, people in these forums will act like the Israelis and Palestinians do...fighting over who should be there and why. I guess it human nature to be this way.

UN halts aid to Gaza, cites Hamas disruption...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090206/ap_ … lestinians

that's not cool... the people need supplies... good job hamas

F*** it.

I'm going to play Mr. Obvious here, and ask the easy rhetorical question.

If Israel kept pounding the shit out of them for a few more months, then which borders would Hamas be willing to accept?

Personally, Hamas should be removed from the equation completely.  Their tactics and policies are a detriment & disservice to the people living in Gaza.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2009-02-07 13:52:09)

rdx-fx wrote:

F*** it.

I'm going to play Mr. Obvious here, and ask the easy rhetorical question.

If Israel kept pounding the shit out of them for a few more months, then which borders would Hamas be willing to accept?

Personally, Hamas should be removed from the equation completely.  Their tactics and policies are a detriment & disservice to the people living in Gaza.

so are the right wing politicians in Israel who are running in the elections, they are just as bad as hamas, there can never be peace with right wing governments and with 2 very likely, the situation will only get worse

good for them...not

would there be an israel to recognise if the arabs had been successful in deastroying israel in 1967?

if israel had lost land would hamas be giving it back?

these arabs have a nerve,.....and cannot be trusted.......

CameronPoe wrote:

benefit wrote:

good for them...not

would there be an israel to recognise if the arabs had been successful in deastroying israel in 1967?

if israel had lost land would hamas be giving it back?

these arabs have a nerve,.....and cannot be trusted.......

lol Arabs lost land in 1948 and have never been given it back. Those ZIionists have a nerve....

but would the arabs have given it back?
they have a nerve ..........

benefit wrote:

but would the arabs have given it back?
they have a nerve ..........
they grab with both hands and still claim to be given nothing........

You're using the wrong word there benefit when you say 'back'. The Arabs never gave or offered anything and were certainly not in a position to give something 'back' to a bunch of Poles, Germans, Russians, Lithuanians, etc.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-04-18 20:04:45)