BF2S Forums Israel Helping Jews Around the World

Braddock wrote:

san4 wrote:

There will always be something to get the Jew-haters riled up. There always has been. Before Israel existed, Jews were expelled  from England, France and Spain, subjected to restrictions in Russia, and mass-murdered in Germany. And you are saying Israel is causing hatred of Jews to increase? Wake up Serge. Israel is just the latest excuse.

In the case of many genuine anti-semites you may be right but there are a lot of people out there who are not necessarily racist but rather not very well-informed who are having their perception of Jewish people in general clouded by the actions of Zionist extremists... a bit like the way many moderate Muslims are being tarred with the same brush as Islamic extremists. I'm not saying this justifies anything as it's still ignorance on their part but one can't deny that Israel's actions are blackening the image of the religion whose interests they claim to act on behalf of.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I do, the moderate Muslims example is good. I acknowledge that ignorant people might respond to Israeli actions by developing negative views of Jews, or even harassing random Jews around the world. I think that is the point you're making, and what Serge experienced. It's a predictable result of Israeli military action.

But your conclusion that "Israel's actions are blackening the image" of Jews is incorrect because there is no rational connection between Serge and the actions of the Israeli military. If ignorant, irrational people see that the Israeli military has killed children and decide that Jews are bad people, that is their choice. They're choosing to generalize to Jews (instead of to Israelis or the Israeli military or no one) and the Israeli military does not make that choice for them. Israel is not blackening the reputation of Jews, ignorant people are misusing the actions of the Israeli military to blacken the reputation of Jews.

Part of your point seems to be that Israel is providing ignorant people with ammunition to make negative generalizations about Jews, but it would be suicidal for Israel to alter its actions to try to prevent ignorant people from using them to blacken the image of Jews. Maybe it would have an effect in the short run if Israel behaved differently, but not in the long run. Two thousand years of Jewish history shows that it is easy for idiots to find a reason to have a negative opinion of Jews regardless of what Jews do.

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

OK, Dilbert. How do you square your theory with the fact that Jews were persecuted--strictly for being Jewish--long before Israel even existed? Long before any acts of zionist terrorism in the Mandate of Palestine?

People have always despised other people, groups have always despised other groups.
Why do Arsenal supporters persecute Liverpool supporters?
Why do Protestants persecute Catholics?
Why does everyone hate the Irish?

The jews are nothing special, in terms of being singled out for persecution, they've just found a way of using it to their advantage.

Your argument was that Israel's actions has driven hatred for Jews. I was pointing out that hatred of Jews has been around a lot longer than Israel.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Antisemitism is real. The fact that other groups have suffered as much or more than the Jews throughout history does not suddenly mean that antisemitism doesn't exist. The issues are unrelated.

Then antiislamicism is real.

The 9/11 attacks were just an excuse used by the antiislamicists to perpetuate the 1,000 year hate they have been indoctrinated with by their ancestors.

See how ridiculous it is?

A tiny handful of islamic terrorists kill ~2,000 US civilians and all we've heard  for the last eight years is 'Fuckin' mooslims, we gotta kill em all. They smell bad too, fuckin' mooslims, mustn't talk to the moderate majority, that'd be fuckin' appeasin' turrists, kill em all'

First, I agree that antiislamicism is real. We see evidence of it on these forums. That in no way affects whether antisemitism is real.

Your "example" of antiislamicism is silly at best and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm sure that "all" you've heard over the past eight years is not at all what you have stated above. You (once again) take a non-representative sample and extrapolate it to cover everything. It's lazy logic.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The Israeli nation has been slaughtering arab civilians by the thousands for the last 60 years, recently 1,000 in Lebanon, now 1,000 in Gaza - and you guys can't understand why the arabs don't like them and just live in peace and harmony with their wonderful neighbours?

Who said we can't understand why the arabs don't like them? Quite making shit up.

Mekstizzle wrote:

FEOS wrote:

OK, Dilbert. How do you square your theory with the fact that Jews were persecuted--strictly for being Jewish--long before Israel even existed? Long before any acts of zionist terrorism in the Mandate of Palestine?

How does that fit your theory?

Antisemitism is real. The fact that other groups have suffered as much or more than the Jews throughout history does not suddenly mean that antisemitism doesn't exist. The issues are unrelated.

One can't criticize anyone they wish to...they are labeled "racist", regardless of the applicability of the term.

Antisemitism is just a stupid term that means "racist towards Jews" - I mean, if you're racist against any other race you're "just racist", but if you're racist against Jews you're "anti-semetic". So yes, Anti-Semitism doesn't really exist, racism and bigotry etc.. does, but anti-semitism... it's just a made up word to make Jews feel special in some weird victimised way.

Kind of like how it's called the Holocaust and not just Genocide like people have described similar acts against mankind throughout history.

That argument is inane. Of course it exists...THEY HAVE A DAMN NAME FOR IT.

If there were a special name for racism against Asians, it doesn't mean that racism against Asians specifically doesn't exist.

Mekstizzle wrote:

no youre inane

Anti-Semitism doesn't really exist, racism and bigotry etc.. does, but anti-semitism... it's just a made up word to make Jews feel special in some weird victimised way.

So if they made up a word for anti-Asian bigotry, you'd say that doesn't really exist, either?

See why your argument is inane now?

Mekstizzle wrote:

I'd say it's a made up word made to make said group of people feel special in some weird victimised way. I don't say that anti-semitism itself doesn't exist, I know that there are people that don't like Jews, but the word that you're looking for, is racist, not anti-semitic. Anti-semitic is just a made up word etc..

I was talking about the word, not the actual ....thoughts or whatever you call it. It's all racism, don't see why there needs to be a special word for it if it's Jews....that's why I say anti-semitism doesn't exist, cos it's redundant, obsolete, pointless when there's already words for it

That's just silly.

There is a word that describes a certain type of racism. That word makes the racism involved (or those being hated) no better or worse than any other...just more specific.

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Of course it exists...THEY HAVE A DAMN NAME FOR IT.

Same as anti-dliberticism?

It has a name, therefore it exists.

There is no such thing as anti-semiticism per se.
Its just racism.

Maybe we should ask why there is no no made up word for victimisation of other races.

From a broad historical perspective, one can easily refer to the prejudice against Muslims as anti-Semitism - Semite refers to numerous races/religions of Southwest Asia, and its modern meaning is referring to Jewish people; anti-Semitism in normal usage is referring to sentiments against Semitic people, or the Jews - however, it is far from the made up label you deem it to be (in an off note, I think we could term anti-Dilberticism [sic] as anti-anti-intellectualism, but that is up for debate.)

Last edited by nukchebi0 (2009-02-01 00:46:30)

Sergeriver wrote:

Ati-Semisitm is prejudice or racism against Semite people.  Despite that, it's accepted to use the word to define prejudice and racism against Jews.  And believe me, anti-Semitism exists.  Everywhere.  And it existed way before Hitler and Israel.

How so?
Why does anti-semiticism exist 'everywhere'?

NukchebiO wrote:

From a broad historical perspective, one can easily refer to the prejudice against Muslims as anti-Semitism - Semite refers to numerous races/religions of Southwest Asia, and its modern meaning is referring to Jewish people; anti-Semitism in normal usage is referring to sentiments against Semitic people, or the Jews - however, it is far from the made up label you deem it to be (in an off note, I think we could term anti-Dilberticism [sic] as anti-anti-intellectualism, but that is up for debate.)

You're only saying that because you're an anti-Dilbertite, following in the long tradition of Anti-Dilberticism.
No doubt your parents indoctrinated you with Anti-Dilberticism, just as your ancestors have for 1,000s of years.
Go off to your Hitler-Jugend meeting and start planning the gas chambers, you hate filled person you.

"Anti-Semitism" only exists in Europe/Middle East. Or you could say it only really exists in the Christian/Muslim worlds. Doesn't exist everywhere, no chance of that. It didn't exist in South/East Asia (prior to the arrival of Christianity/Islam) when regions where domination by Hinduism/Buddhism/Shinto/Taoism/Confucianism etc.. and it still doesn't exist in those cultures where there isn't significant Christian/Muslim influence.

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2009-02-01 13:47:47)

And in every muslim/jewish country there is anti-christian sentiment.
In every jewish/christian country there is anti-muslim sentiment.

So what?

Is it just me, or do many of the Euros here make excuses for anti-Semitism?

[paraphrase]
"It doesn't exist."

"Racism against others is far more prevalent."

"Why do they have a special name for racism against them?"

"They probably deserve it"
[/paraphrase]

I guess if you say things like that followed by "but any racism is bad", it's OK. You're clean.

And where did the persecution of the Jews happen historically once they left the Levant...to include the systematic genocide of more than 6 million of them?

hmmm....

Seems like those patterns run deep...and long.

FEOS wrote:

Is it just me, or do many of the Euros here make excuses for anti-Semitism?

No-one is making excuses, just pointing out that racism is not exactly unusual, they haven't been particularly singled out.

FEOS wrote:

Seems like those patterns run deep...and long.

No, they don't, its a tin-foil hat conspiracy theory to say everyone in the world is conspiring against the jews for some unknown reason.
The Egyptians persecuted many groups of people, the Romans the same, as did the christians and muslims.
Its just racism, directed at everyone on earth by everyone one earth, as we see in Bosnia, Rwanda, and now the persecution of the Palestinians.

FEOS wrote:

And where did the persecution of the Jews happen historically once they left the Levant...

The places they went to, Germany and Russia mostly, the rest of Europe not so much - if at all.

to include the systematic genocide of more than 6 million of them?

And the systematic slaughter of quite a few other people - Poles, queers, Romanies, Slavs, the disabled to name a few.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-02-02 06:08:15)

sergeriver wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

"Anti-Semitism" only exists in Europe/Middle East. Or you could say it only really exists in the Christian/Muslim worlds. Doesn't exist everywhere, no chance of that. It didn't exist in South/East Asia (prior to the arrival of Christianity/Islam) when regions where domination by Hinduism/Buddhism/Shinto/Taoism/Confucianism etc.. and it still doesn't exist in those cultures where there isn't significant Christian/Muslim influence.

In every Christian/Muslim country there's anti-Semitism.

"anti Semitism" is a myth, jews are not Semites, only arabs are

A simple search on wiki says otherwise.

Wiki wrote:

In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic  was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages. This family includes the ancient and modern forms of Akkadian, Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Ge'ez, Hebrew, Maltese, Phoenician, Tigre and Tigrinya among others.

The following is a list of ancient Semitic peoples.

    * Akkadians — migrated into Mesopotamia in the late 4th millennium BC and amalgamate with non-Semitic Mesopotamian (Sumerian) populations into the Assyrians and Babylonians of the Late Bronze Age.[2][3]
    * Eblaites — 23rd century BC
    * Aramaeans — 16th to 8th century BC[4][5] / Akhlames (Ahlamu) 14th century BC[6]
    * Ugarites, 14th to 12th centuries BC
    * Canaanite language speaking nations of the early Iron Age:
          o Amorites
          o Ammonites
          o Edomites
          o Hebrews — founded the kingdom of Israel and Judah, the remnants of which became the Jews and Samaritans
          o Knanaya
          o Moabites
          o Phoenicians — founded Mediterranean colonies including Carthage
    * Old South Arabian speaking peoples
          o Sabaeans of Yemen — 9th to 1st c. BC
    * Ethio-Semitic speaking peoples
          o Aksumites — 4th c. BC to 7th c. AD
    * Arabs, Old North Arabian speaking Bedouins
          o Gindibu's Arabs 9th c. BC
          o Lihyanites — 6th to 1st c. BC
          o Thamud people — 2nd to 5th c. AD
          o Ghassanids — 3rd to 7th c. AD
          o Nabataeans — adopted Arabic in the 4th century AD

Last edited by M.O.A.B (2009-02-02 12:43:13)