I've been thinking about writing something like this for awhile and since I could post it somewhere like bf2s and have people comment on it I've decided to post it. I know I'll probably be flamed for this, be it my poor writing skills or backwards logic but nobody here knows me in the real world so I could live with that. Also mods if anyone flames me I don't care don't punish them please.
Keep in mind I'm an atheist. But this is not meant to bash religion this is actually meant to defend it. I'm not going to respond to the thread I just want to hear others thoughts on it.
Ok
So I love watching debates especially debates regarding religion's role in the world. Though I agree with most of the atheist argument's except for one that I never really understood.
I've never been able to understand the "Religion has killed more people in history then anything else". I'm not going to argue that fact either way but instead go into how the death caused from religion benefited the world.
"Religion have been the cause of more wars then anything else". Not really. Yes it can be argued that every war had a religious factor not many wars have been caused primarily because of religion. It's exactly because of that religious factor that the victors were able to push on through hard times and win. Sometimes. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere and your people have not communicated with the outside world in the last 5000 years you shouldn't complain about religion. Especially if you live in the West.
Lets start with the Greeks. Despite their philosophical differences each city state had two things in common. Race and religion. It was because of these two things that they were able to unite several times to defeat invading Persians or to in fact invade Persia later on. Without religion to push them to fight harder or sacrifice a little more who's to say Alexander the Great would have never conquered most of Persia and founded cities like Alexandria which was a cultural learning center for years. Or the Greeks who fought the Persians at Thermopylae and saved at least Greece from Persian dominance. If those mean knew or thought that nothing happened after death would they have stayed to fight? Would the world know Greek democracy or Persian theocracy?
The Romans. Same religion as the Greeks just with different names. Same ideas, stories, and thoughts. Having their religion as a booster they were able to conquer most of Europe and spread the language of Latin. Of Latin we get French, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese. Because of their dominance Civilization spread throughout Europe.
After the collapse of the Romans, Europe stagnated for several centuries in a period called the Dark Ages. The dominant power to rise out of this period was the Pope. With the power to excommunicate leaders from Christianity and to called upon entire nations to do it's bidding the world saw just a bit of stabilization.
Now before we talk about the Crusades. Yes I would say it was needless bloodshed and yes it did poison relations between Muslims and Christians till this day. But if it wasn't for the Crusades how would the world be different? Out of the Crusades Europe saw a period of peace between nations that had been pretty hostile for a long time. Also there was a nice exchange of technology between both sides which raised the standard of life for the survivors. Also had it not been for the coming together of Muslims and the experience of war with other advanced powers the Mamluk's would have never been able to defeat the Mongol armies after the destruction of Baghdad.
Forward a bit to invasion of the America's by the Europeans. The pilgrims were spurred by religion to escape to The New World. When they finally settled they were able to push the Native off their lands and set up the conditions for the American Revolution. Which of course led to the United States. So yes my fellow Atheist, I will concede that America was not founded on the basis of religion but it was founded by the religious.
Because of their perceived moral, racial, and spiritual superiority as well as greed the Spanish were able to defeat the Aztecs and take control of huge part of the Americas. Well that and their technology. But it was their religion and greed which kept them motivated enough to commit genocide. Yes I'll say the Spanish did commit genocide on the natives. But it was so long ago that nobody here can say they knew a single Aztec or other south American group's member and the progress in the Americas which followed out weighed the harm of the genocide hundreds of years before. But NO it is not ok to commit genocide. Nowadays.
So just these few examples which I'm going to list because I don't have time to post every single war of religion in Europe or the New World from the year 200 BC to the year 1912 AD and then use it to point out how it shaped the world. Keep in mind had the ball bounced a little differently. Nobody on this forum would be here. People of mixed race in Europe have a common religious background to thank for that. American's have to thank the genocidal lunatic Spanish and the fanatical Pilgrims for the founding of their nations.
Had there not been a war here or there wiping out thousands of people we would have not been born. At least not the way we are. Had there not been a war that killed 100,000 of Germans would your ancestors have married and had children with different people? Would the full blooded German who was on his way back from failed Crusade have not reached a village somewhere far away from his home and not seen a young woman and fell in love and started your bloodline?
So Americans and Europeans should never use the "wars by religion killed millions of ancient people" line because had it not been for those millions of deaths caused by and helped by religion the world we know and the life you know would be vastly different.
I read something ATG once posted about Obama and McCain. went something like-
"The evil you know is better then the evil you don't."
I know it wasn't his original quote but it's good for this situation. We wouldn't know what would have happened without religion but considering the circumstances, we all have access to high speed internet, live in countries with high standards, could afford to pour hundreds if not thousands of hours into a video game, it is better the way this turned out then to roll the dice and to have never had religion.
Done.
Keep in mind I'm an atheist. But this is not meant to bash religion this is actually meant to defend it. I'm not going to respond to the thread I just want to hear others thoughts on it.
Ok
So I love watching debates especially debates regarding religion's role in the world. Though I agree with most of the atheist argument's except for one that I never really understood.
I've never been able to understand the "Religion has killed more people in history then anything else". I'm not going to argue that fact either way but instead go into how the death caused from religion benefited the world.
"Religion have been the cause of more wars then anything else". Not really. Yes it can be argued that every war had a religious factor not many wars have been caused primarily because of religion. It's exactly because of that religious factor that the victors were able to push on through hard times and win. Sometimes. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere and your people have not communicated with the outside world in the last 5000 years you shouldn't complain about religion. Especially if you live in the West.
Lets start with the Greeks. Despite their philosophical differences each city state had two things in common. Race and religion. It was because of these two things that they were able to unite several times to defeat invading Persians or to in fact invade Persia later on. Without religion to push them to fight harder or sacrifice a little more who's to say Alexander the Great would have never conquered most of Persia and founded cities like Alexandria which was a cultural learning center for years. Or the Greeks who fought the Persians at Thermopylae and saved at least Greece from Persian dominance. If those mean knew or thought that nothing happened after death would they have stayed to fight? Would the world know Greek democracy or Persian theocracy?
The Romans. Same religion as the Greeks just with different names. Same ideas, stories, and thoughts. Having their religion as a booster they were able to conquer most of Europe and spread the language of Latin. Of Latin we get French, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese. Because of their dominance Civilization spread throughout Europe.
After the collapse of the Romans, Europe stagnated for several centuries in a period called the Dark Ages. The dominant power to rise out of this period was the Pope. With the power to excommunicate leaders from Christianity and to called upon entire nations to do it's bidding the world saw just a bit of stabilization.
Now before we talk about the Crusades. Yes I would say it was needless bloodshed and yes it did poison relations between Muslims and Christians till this day. But if it wasn't for the Crusades how would the world be different? Out of the Crusades Europe saw a period of peace between nations that had been pretty hostile for a long time. Also there was a nice exchange of technology between both sides which raised the standard of life for the survivors. Also had it not been for the coming together of Muslims and the experience of war with other advanced powers the Mamluk's would have never been able to defeat the Mongol armies after the destruction of Baghdad.
Forward a bit to invasion of the America's by the Europeans. The pilgrims were spurred by religion to escape to The New World. When they finally settled they were able to push the Native off their lands and set up the conditions for the American Revolution. Which of course led to the United States. So yes my fellow Atheist, I will concede that America was not founded on the basis of religion but it was founded by the religious.
Because of their perceived moral, racial, and spiritual superiority as well as greed the Spanish were able to defeat the Aztecs and take control of huge part of the Americas. Well that and their technology. But it was their religion and greed which kept them motivated enough to commit genocide. Yes I'll say the Spanish did commit genocide on the natives. But it was so long ago that nobody here can say they knew a single Aztec or other south American group's member and the progress in the Americas which followed out weighed the harm of the genocide hundreds of years before. But NO it is not ok to commit genocide. Nowadays.
So just these few examples which I'm going to list because I don't have time to post every single war of religion in Europe or the New World from the year 200 BC to the year 1912 AD and then use it to point out how it shaped the world. Keep in mind had the ball bounced a little differently. Nobody on this forum would be here. People of mixed race in Europe have a common religious background to thank for that. American's have to thank the genocidal lunatic Spanish and the fanatical Pilgrims for the founding of their nations.
Had there not been a war here or there wiping out thousands of people we would have not been born. At least not the way we are. Had there not been a war that killed 100,000 of Germans would your ancestors have married and had children with different people? Would the full blooded German who was on his way back from failed Crusade have not reached a village somewhere far away from his home and not seen a young woman and fell in love and started your bloodline?
So Americans and Europeans should never use the "wars by religion killed millions of ancient people" line because had it not been for those millions of deaths caused by and helped by religion the world we know and the life you know would be vastly different.
I read something ATG once posted about Obama and McCain. went something like-
"The evil you know is better then the evil you don't."
I know it wasn't his original quote but it's good for this situation. We wouldn't know what would have happened without religion but considering the circumstances, we all have access to high speed internet, live in countries with high standards, could afford to pour hundreds if not thousands of hours into a video game, it is better the way this turned out then to roll the dice and to have never had religion.
Done.
