20th Hijacker - No prosecution due to torture

2009-01-18 06:37:34

#26

mikkel: Member; +383|6905

FEOS wrote:
The main beef the official had wasn't the techniques that were used, but rather that they were used to a point where the detainee's health was compromised. In essence, they weren't doing their job to ensure that his health was taken care of...which is--again--not torture. It's interrogators not doing their job.

Okay, hold on. So if you get arrested, thrown in a cell, which is a method that's very much allowed, and you never get fed, that wouldn't consititute negligent homicide - it'd just be that the prison guards didn't do their jobs?

Negligent homicide is still homicide, just like torture as a consequence of negligence is still torture.

2009-01-18 07:33:26

#27

Ajax_the_Great1: Dropped on request; +206|6950

If the man still has 10 toes and fingers he wasn't really tortured imo.

2009-01-18 07:55:05

#28

..teddy..jimmy: Member; +1,393|6953

ATG wrote:
If chucking him out a plane is too harsh how about parachuting him into a hog pen full of hungry half starved pigs. Works for me.

Whatever happened to being innocent until proven guilty?

2009-01-18 08:58:04

#29

DeathBecomesYu: Member; +171|6483

People in here just don't get it. First of all, the charges were not dropped because he is innocent as one person here claimed in Karma to ATG. Secondly, the prosecutor was NOT upset about this guy being treated the way he was, she we upset that her case was ruined because morons went too far. Even in this article, the prosecutor states that this guy is not a nice guy and would have definitely been one of the high jackers.

Let's remember a few things shall we. The prosecutor has seen and heard more than anyone here. She knows the case, she has been building it and she herself is convinced that this guy was, is and will be a terrorist ready to do harm to America. I love the arm chair experts here who think they know what happens behind doors, what the evidence is and cry about the harm this guy received. To all of you that are crying right now....YOU KNOW JACK SHIT!!!

Until you know the evidence, until you see the evidence of either the torture or his involvement and activities to harm America or Americans then I would shut up, because again, you know absolutely nothing about anything other than the words from an article or two online. Finally, I would love to see Dilbert post anything that is not about what America does wrong. How about posting other groups or countries doing far more harm to their people or to people from other countries (besides your obsession with America and Israel). You obviously troll the internet every morning looking for ANYTHING that puts America in a bad light and you cant wait to be the first in line to shout it. For God's sake, look around, the world is messed up and plenty of blame to go around.

2009-01-18 11:17:26

#30

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6714|'Murka

mikkel wrote:
FEOS wrote:
The main beef the official had wasn't the techniques that were used, but rather that they were used to a point where the detainee's health was compromised. In essence, they weren't doing their job to ensure that his health was taken care of...which is--again--not torture. It's interrogators not doing their job.
Okay, hold on. So if you get arrested, thrown in a cell, which is a method that's very much allowed, and you never get fed, that wouldn't consititute negligent homicide - it'd just be that the prison guards didn't do their jobs?

Negligent homicide is still homicide, just like torture as a consequence of negligence is still torture.

Take it easy, Francis.

Someone can be charged with negligent homicide for not doing their job. It happens all the time. In that case, that is the crime, not torture.

The interrogators didn't torture the guy (at least not according to the statutes at the time). His jail keepers appear to have been negligent in their care for him outside of the interrogation rooms.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-01-19 11:44:07

#31

DeathBecomesYu: Member; +171|6483

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28735610

Yeah. I guess everyone at Guantanamo is just a nice soft, plush, purring little kitten. Maybe America has made mistakes and did go too far in some aspects, but for people like this, they deserve anything they get.

2009-01-19 22:50:39

#32

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX

Death wrote:
Yeah. I guess everyone at Guantanamo is just a nice soft, plush, purring little kitten.

Who knows, half were released without charge, this guy wasn't charged, seems like the majority are going to be released.

FEOS wrote:
The interrogators didn't torture the guy

Yeah funny.

FEOS wrote:
at least not according to the statutes at the time

Not according to the statutes bent specifically for Gitmo you mean?
Anyway "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case"

FEOS wrote:
His jail keepers appear to have been negligent in their care for him outside of the interrogation rooms.

No evidence has been put forward to suggest that.

Bet the 9/11 families are pleased, the only perpetrator alive is not going to be charged even.

Fuck Israel

2009-01-20 07:36:30

#33

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6714|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
The interrogators didn't torture the guy
Yeah funny.

Not really.

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
at least not according to the statutes at the time
Not according to the statutes bent specifically for Gitmo you mean?
Anyway "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case"

Nothing was bent.

"His treatment". That means his overall treatment, not his interrogation. He was not properly cared for by his captors and his health suffered. That is a different situation than how the interrogators treated him.

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
His jail keepers appear to have been negligent in their care for him outside of the interrogation rooms.
No evidence has been put forward to suggest that.

Actually, that's all the evidence put forward thus far suggests.

Dilbert_X wrote:
Bet the 9/11 families are pleased, the only perpetrator alive is not going to be charged even.

He wasn't a perp. If he were, he wouldn't be alive.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-01-21 04:38:53

#34

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:
"His treatment". That means his overall treatment, not his interrogation. He was not properly cared for by his captors and his health suffered. That is a different situation than how the interrogators treated him.

Captors/interrogators, doesn't really matter.
Forcibly administering IVs so you can go on torturin someone is a bit beyond lack of care.

Actually, that's all the evidence put forward thus far suggests.

According to the Judge he was tortured, good enough for me.

Fuck Israel

2009-01-21 05:20:43

#35

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6456|what

If he was properly cared for by his captors they wouldn't have handed him over to the "interrogators".

2009-01-21 06:07:40

#36

Lotta_Drool: Spit; +350|6487|Ireland

After reading this thread it is appearant that the free world doesn't have the balls to do what is needed to fight terrorism. They have already won in the free world.

I would define a person as a fucking idiot if:

A) Complain about the government attempting to gain information from enemy prisoners.

B) Complain about the government not doing enough to protect them and stop terrorist attacts

This is the real give away:

They complain about the treatment of a person after they have openly admitted that they are part of AQ and still wants to be a mytar. ( I am pretty sure this is one of the guys who has stated that in court already )

Last edited by Lotta_Drool (2009-01-21 06:21:47)

2009-01-21 06:17:58

#37

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6456|what

Lotta_Drool wrote:
After reading this thread it is appearant that the free world doesn't have the balls to do what is needed to fight terrorism. They have already won in the free world.

You don't have to lower yourself to the torture of your enemies and then expect to set a shining light of freedom to the rest of the world.

2009-01-21 13:08:08

#38

DeathBecomesYu: Member; +171|6483

TheAussieReaper wrote:
Lotta_Drool wrote:
After reading this thread it is appearant that the free world doesn't have the balls to do what is needed to fight terrorism. They have already won in the free world.
You don't have to lower yourself to the torture of your enemies and then expect to set a shining light of freedom to the rest of the world.

Remember that what happened in this OP had to do with an idiot or two ruining her case. I would hardly call a couple of idiots not doing there job and example of what America tries to represent. I am sure there are shining examples of morons in your country's military, government and leadership. No country is without fault at one time or another.

Don't color America in one broad stroke over this kind of thing. There are plenty of Americans, leaders and military people TRYING to do the right things. I lost a friend in Iraq, a kid I helped financially attend school in an exchange program, and he believed he was doing right or do we just gloss over those kinds of people. I believe those kinds of people far, far outweigh the idiots.

2009-01-21 23:22:12

#39

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX

Lotta-Drool wrote:
After reading this thread it is appearant that the free world doesn't have the balls to do what is needed to fight terrorism.

You're confusing what you think is needed to beat terrorism with what is actually needed.
Charging around shooting and torturing people may look good on '24' and make you feel big but in practise it doesn't acheive a whole lot.
Better to fight smart than macho.

Lotta-Drool wrote:
They complain about the treatment of a person after they have openly admitted that they are part of AQ and still wants to be a mytar.

So he's admitted being a member of a criminal organisation and criminal intent, just let him be convicted and lock him up.
Not sure Qahtani ever admitted that BTW.

Fuck Israel

2009-01-22 03:12:28

#40

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6714|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
"His treatment". That means his overall treatment, not his interrogation. He was not properly cared for by his captors and his health suffered. That is a different situation than how the interrogators treated him.
Captors/interrogators, doesn't really matter.
Forcibly administering IVs so you can go on torturin someone is a bit beyond lack of care.

Actually, it DOES really matter. See, that's what you do when you investigate something. You find out what actually happened, and then correct it so it doesn't happen again.

I guess when a hospital gives someone an IV, they are somehow torturing them? That's wrong? To provide health care to someone who needs it, regardless of the reason? Must be illegal for medics to treat the adversary on the field of battle when they need it, too.

Dilbert_X wrote:
Actually, that's all the evidence put forward thus far suggests.
According to the Judge he was tortured, good enough for me.

Well of course it is...it fits your preconceived world view.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-01-22 03:30:13

#41

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6456|what

FEOS wrote:
Actually, it DOES really matter. See, that's what you do when you investigate something. You find out what actually happened, and then correct it so it doesn't happen again.

I guess when a hospital gives someone an IV, they are somehow torturing them? That's wrong? To provide health care to someone who needs it, regardless of the reason? Must be illegal for medics to treat the adversary on the field of battle when they need it, too.

Investigation by torture isn't exactly a good way to prove something. They are going to tell you what you want to hear, confess whatever bullshit you can allege they have done. Sleep deprivation is one of the causes for the victims to become docile and more agreeable to suggestive questioning.

You think torture is akin to medics helping a wounded combatant? Well he was left in a "life-threatening condition" after the torture, so I guess the opposite was taking place.

2009-01-22 03:37:15

#42

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6714|'Murka

TheAussieReaper wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Actually, it DOES really matter. See, that's what you do when you investigate something. You find out what actually happened, and then correct it so it doesn't happen again.

I guess when a hospital gives someone an IV, they are somehow torturing them? That's wrong? To provide health care to someone who needs it, regardless of the reason? Must be illegal for medics to treat the adversary on the field of battle when they need it, too.
Investigation by torture isn't exactly a good way to prove something. They are going to tell you what you want to hear, confess whatever bullshit you can allege they have done. Sleep deprivation is one of the causes for the victims to become docile and more agreeable to suggestive questioning.

I was talking about investigating the situation with regard to the prisoner's treatment, Reaper.

You've completely misconstrued my comments.

TheAussieReaper wrote:
You think torture is akin to medics helping a wounded combatant? Well he was left in a "life-threatening condition" after the torture, so I guess the opposite was taking place.

No, I don't think that. I was simply using Dilbert's logic to show how wrong that position is. You have to look more than 1mm deep.

The "life-threatening condition" was not due to torture, but rather due to maltreatment outside of the interrogation room. There are separate cadres who interrogate and who provide day-to-day care for prisoners. Clearly the latter failed in their duties if he was in the condition he was.

He wasn't beaten, waterboarded, electrocuted, or induced pain by his interrogators. Don't see how he could have been tortured without something like that happening.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-01-22 03:41:36

#43

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6456|what

FEOS wrote:
You've completely misconstrued my comments.

Then for that I appologise.

I am pissed off that this guy will not be prosecuted because of the failings in his holding. If he was\is guilty it could have been done and dusted by now. It's been a failure of justice in a lot of ways.

2009-01-22 07:27:37

#44

Lotta_Drool: Spit; +350|6487|Ireland

Dilbert_X wrote:
Lotta-Drool wrote:
After reading this thread it is appearant that the free world doesn't have the balls to do what is needed to fight terrorism.
You're confusing what you think is needed to beat terrorism with what is actually needed.
Charging around shooting and torturing people may look good on '24' and make you feel big but in practise it doesn't acheive a whole lot.
Better to fight smart than macho.
Lotta-Drool wrote:
They complain about the treatment of a person after they have openly admitted that they are part of AQ and still wants to be a mytar.
So he's admitted being a member of a criminal organisation and criminal intent, just let him be convicted and lock him up.
Not sure Qahtani ever admitted that BTW.

Gaining information from known terrorists is pretty essential to fighting terrorist organizations. Fighting terrorist is different than fighting a country, this is why you fail. I believe the people who are in charge of fighting this war know much more than you or I and I seriously doubt they get their jollies pulling innocent people off the street and wasting resources interrogating them for 20+ hours a day for a month when they know they will get nothing useful.

2009-01-22 07:58:55

#45

.Sup: be nice; +2,646|6757|The Twilight Zone

TheAussieReaper wrote:
Mr Qahtani remains at Guantanamo, but all charges against him were dropped.
Oh, even when charges are dropped they can still hold you. Wonder where he'll end up once gitmo closes.

Somewhere sunny I'll bet.

tax payers will pay for some nice vacations

https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png

2009-01-23 01:45:00

#46

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:
The "life-threatening condition" was not due to torture, but rather due to maltreatment outside of the interrogation room.

Not according to the judge
'Susan Crawford told the Washington Post newspaper that Mohammad al-Qahtani had been left in a "life-threatening condition" after being interrogated. '
Softening up outside the interrogation room, inside the interrogation room, its all the same.
Most of the prisoner abuse and torture happened outside the interrogation room at Abu Ghraib, we have the pictures if you remember.

Fuck Israel

2009-01-23 03:54:55

#47

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6714|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
The "life-threatening condition" was not due to torture, but rather due to maltreatment outside of the interrogation room.
Not according to the judge
'Susan Crawford told the Washington Post newspaper that Mohammad al-Qahtani had been left in a "life-threatening condition" after being interrogated. '
Softening up outside the interrogation room, inside the interrogation room, its all the same.
Most of the prisoner abuse and torture happened outside the interrogation room at Abu Ghraib, we have the pictures if you remember.

By maltreatment, I mean failure to care for the detainee's health. All of which aligns pretty well with the article's reporting, to include what the judge said.

But differentiating the various aspects of what happened is only important if you want to identify and fix a problem. It's really not necessary when all you want to do is point fingers and place blame.

Last edited by FEOS (2009-01-23 03:56:19)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-01-23 04:15:28

#48

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX

Whatever, he was tortured and brought close to death by his captors.
According to the judge it was the torture which was the problem, not lack of a balanced diet.
You can split hairs all you like, fact is he's not going to be brought to justice thanks to misfeasance by your fellows.

GG Idiots.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-01-23 04:20:41)

Fuck Israel

2009-01-23 19:02:47

#49

Harmor: Error_Name_Not_Found; +605|6852|San Diego, CA, USA

OP: No worries, under this administration he will be let free and then we'll prosecute him after he helps kill another 3,000 Americans.

2009-01-23 20:50:20

#50

Catbox: forgiveness; +505|7020

I hope the terrorists are released and they take out everyone that sympathised with there situation in Guantanamo... poetic justice...
and the lawyers...lol

Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2009-01-23 20:56:08)

Love is the answer

BF2S Forums 20th Hijacker - No prosecution due to torture

FEOS wrote:

ATG wrote:

mikkel wrote:

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Death wrote:

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