TSI wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
My intent with posting the video was to demonstrate the lengths these militants will go through. I should not have said "that" school though. The following quoted
AP article is the exact school you are referring to. It quotes
Palestinian witnesses as saying they saw militants launching shells from just outside the school.. sadly the Israelis missed their mark. Still, that is not the same as deliberately targeting them. Gaza is extremely populated and that is why I expressed my disappointment with the IDF. War is hell, and in this century it's a televised hell. It makes absolutely no sense for Israel to make no attempt to avoid collateral. Even if Israel has no regard for innocent Palestinians they are certainly aware of the fact the entire world is watching. The appearance of at least showing concern is in their best interest. Hitting schools with no strategical value is nonsensical.
Your claim was that Israel is not letting anyone out or any aid in. I just picked one example. That is enough to dispel your claim. I would offer other examples including aid but you've already predetermined the validity of reporting with your selective reasoning. You've openly decided to withhold trust from information that does not fit within your world views. I truly feel you have a fixed mindset, and you have deemed any non conforming source bogus. No offense but if your willing to brush off Palestinian accounts of Hamas launching mortars from civilian locations how can I expect you to accept a neutral source?
None taken. I don't disagree with you about Hamas. As I've oft stated, I do not condone them, support them, agree with them. I do, however, understand their raison d'être, much as I can sympathize with the Palestinian civilians' plight. It is them who are losing, and it is only them whom I defend.
The Palestinian struggle is exacerbated by those who claim to be fighting for them. I concede that they, the Palestinians, are ultimately the ones who bear the brunt of this conflict. This isn't because the desire Hamas has to destroy is somehow lesser. It is because they are technologically dominated. The intent of Hamas is to provoke Israel into retaliation, quickly demanding a cease fire once a response has become apparent. I understand this. I do not
condone it though. Inviting return fire upon their own civilian centers so they can parade their dead in front of the world media is disgusting.
TSI wrote:
I'm glad we concur on the IDF's mistakes regarding schools. I believe, however, that we differ on our perspectives on Israel's efforts to relieve the humanitarian crisis. Which is entirely fair. Perhaps I'm overly generalising in stating that Israel is blockading Gaza; my intent was to show that if any relief is in fact going on, its breadth and adequacy is next to null. Mind you, I'd be the first to laud Israel for taking steps to avert the crisis.
I am in no position to judge what "enough" is under the circumstances. I am conscious to the fact that I do not have all of the information. I can not make an informed decision, nor do I have the military credentials to dictate acceptable security breaches.
TSI wrote:
If you think they have actually tried to do anything to limit the "collateral", that's fair. Based on the info I have, I don't see that being the case at all, hence my open misgivings about the entire operation. Is it worth bombing a school even to get one mortar-launching pair, who according ? They didn't kill anyone (yet). The Israelis, however, have killed 39 (40 according to the UN). I'll be impressed if they can explain that one away.
The school was a mistake. Using 120mm shells or mortars to return fire does seem excessive. War is cruel and the bottom line is there is no way to make it 100% safe for everyone involuntarily caught in the middle.
I hold Hamas accountable for directing the artillery.
A young witness from Jabaliya, Ibrahim Amen, 16, said that he had seen one of the militants, whom he identified as Abu Khaled Abu Asker, in the area of the school right before the attack.
Ibrahim said he saw the militant after he answered calls for volunteers to pile sand around the camp “to help protect the resistance fighters.” Ibrahim went to pile sand near the school with his brother, Iyad, 20, who was then injured by the Israeli mortar fire.
I hold Israel responsible for using the wrong shell in response. It was a poor decision and mistake.
The Israelis have developed their own technology in dealing with the problem of congested urban warfare. They use a "knock on roof" technique to advise civilians before they hit certain areas. They often shoot especially loud artillery shells above buildings to give notice of an impending air strike. They have dropped pamphlets and have used cell phone technology to forewarn civilians. These techniques work for hitting large caches of weapons (time to get out but not time to move equipment). However, to announce beforehand that you intend to take out a building that is housing a Hamas leader is impractical. Israel can and has at times tried to minimize casualties even in these situations. They will use the smallest warhead needed and based on intelligence/drones hit the exact window that is needed to do the job. No system is perfect and the challenges are especially difficult in an area like Gaza. The gambles are high and it would be nice to tell everyone to get out of the way. Of course the militants would also vacate and find another school to hide in.
