War in Gaza Official Thread

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2009-01-05 21:43:15

#901

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6831

Kmarion wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10984-cloud-of-darts-could-neutralise-buried-landmines.html
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/27/dr … f-arr.html

I'm surprised our military experts didn't explain this..lol.
That's not what those pics looked like.
Each rod has a flared rear end, like the feathers of an arrow, and hundreds can be packed into a single cylindrical shell. This shell can be lobbed into a mined area and just before impact a charge behind the arrows will fire them downwards. The metal flights will keep the arrows on a straight course so that they pepper the area at high velocity and at regular spaces.
Really? It did to me.

Here's video of an airburst artillery round;

Here's video of an old HC smoke round

Here's parts of a relevant article from Globalscurity;
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … ons/wp.htm

Globalsecurity.org wrote:
Israel used White Phosphorus against HAMAS targets in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead in January 2009. This violated no international laws or conventions.
...
White phosphorus is not banned by any treaty to which the United States is a signatory. Smokes and obscurants comprise a category of materials that are not used militarily as direct chemical agents. The United States retains its ability to employ incendiaries to hold high-priority military targets at risk in a manner consistent with the principle of proportionality that governs the use of all weapons under existing law. The use of white phosphorus or fuel air explosives are not prohibited or restricted by Protocol II of the Certain Conventional Weapons Convention (CCWC), the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects.

The picture linked earlier looked like a M825 that'd been detonated on the ground (after impact, or as an IED.. pick whichever one you prefer). Normally, you'd airburst a M825 smoke round to get maximum concealment from the smoke. Groundburst.. not so effective.

Now, if that is in fact a M825 WP smoke round - they're 102 pound projectiles, air-burstable, designed to generate smoke for obscuration/concealment purposes. They only contain about 13 pounds of actual WP (White Phosphorous) and are not the Viet Nam era "Willie Pete" mass-incendiary bombs. They are smoke generators - not the mass-incendiary devices that most civilians would associate with "WP" or Napalm from watching too many Viet Nam movies.

If you're really curious about the various artillery munitions in the US (and by extension Israeli) arsenal, here's a few links to browse through;
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … ns/155.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … s/ammo.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … s/m825.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … ons/wp.htm

Last edited by rdx-fx (2009-01-05 21:51:27)

2009-01-05 21:49:08

#902

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6840|132 and Bush

rdx-fx wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
FEOS wrote:

That's not what those pics looked like.
Each rod has a flared rear end, like the feathers of an arrow, and hundreds can be packed into a single cylindrical shell. This shell can be lobbed into a mined area and just before impact a charge behind the arrows will fire them downwards. The metal flights will keep the arrows on a straight course so that they pepper the area at high velocity and at regular spaces.
Really? It did to me.
Here's video of an airburst artillery round;

Here's video of an old HC smoke round

Here's parts of a relevant article from Globalscurity;
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … ons/wp.htm
Globalsecurity.org wrote:
Israel used White Phosphorus against HAMAS targets in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead in January 2009. This violated no international laws or conventions.
...
White phosphorus is not banned by any treaty to which the United States is a signatory. Smokes and obscurants comprise a category of materials that are not used militarily as direct chemical agents. The United States retains its ability to employ incendiaries to hold high-priority military targets at risk in a manner consistent with the principle of proportionality that governs the use of all weapons under existing law. The use of white phosphorus or fuel air explosives are not prohibited or restricted by Protocol II of the Certain Conventional Weapons Convention (CCWC), the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects.
The picture linked earlier looked like a M825 that'd been detonated on the ground (after impact, or as an IED.. pick whichever one you prefer). Normally, you'd airburst a smoke round to get maximum concealment from the smoke. Groundburst.. not so effective.

Now, if that is in fact a M825 WP smoke round - they're 102 pound projectiles, air-burstable, designed to generate smoke for obscuration/concealment purposes. They only contain about 13 pounds of actual WP (White Phosphorous) and are not the Viet Nam era "Willie Pete" mass-incendiary bombs. They are smoke generators - not the mass-incendiary devices that most civilians would associate with "WP" or Napalm from watching too many Viet Nam movies.

If you're really curious about the various artillery munitions in the US (and by extension Israeli) arsenal, here's a few links to browse through;
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … ns/155.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … s/ammo.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … s/m825.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … ons/wp.htm

Any pictures of the shells I am talking about?

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-01-05 21:54:12

#903

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6840|132 and Bush

ATG wrote:
Israel knows there are a thousand cameras pointed at them waiting for any excuse to give the U.N. reason to pass another resolution against them.

They are not that stupid. If there was evidence of willy peter being used by Israel it would be all over the Arab news and youtube.

Even if there wasn't evidence .

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-01-05 21:57:55

#904

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6831

Kmarion wrote:
Any pictures of the shells I am talking about?

The first video in my above post would look very similar to what you're describing. At least in what the effects on target would look like to an observer.

sparse, dark gray airburst "poof" with a roughly spherical shape, then sparse dark gray cone of lines streaking down from that burst, then an imperial assload of dust and dirt being kicked up very much like someone shot a giant shotgun into the dirt.

I'm not familiar with any flechette carrying artillery round, though.

[Note: Imperial Assload = 1 Gross of Shitloads = approximately 144 shitloads.
Not to be confused with a Metric Assload, which is of slightly less volume (100 shitloads) and doesn't stink (according to French Bureau of Standards and Measurements declaration)]

Last edited by rdx-fx (2009-01-05 22:05:16)

2009-01-06 02:44:32

#905

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|6997|Argentina

So far, the losers are the innocent civilians, not Hamas.

Living conditions in Gaza are reported to be deteriorating sharply, with supplies of fuel and food not getting to where they are needed. Many in Gaza are also without running water or electricity.

The UN says a million people in the territory are without electricity and many are facing "serious hunger" within days.

Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert, one of two foreign doctors working at Gaza's biggest hospital, al-Shifa, said operating rooms were full and people were dying because of a lack of supplies.

Dominic Nutt, of the aid agency Save The Children, told the BBC that workers in the territory were reporting rapidly deteriorating conditions:

"They don't have any water most of the day, there is no electricity, they are freezing cold, the windows have to be left open to stop them smashing when the bombs fall.

"Children are at risk from hypothermia, they are malnourished, there is not enough food, the situation is getting desperate."

Thousands of Gazans are reported to have fled their homes, despite the dangers of moving around outdoors in the territory.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7812979.stm

2009-01-06 02:50:46

#906

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6392|what

And with the blockade the Hospitals were already short on supplies.

2009-01-06 03:08:06

#907

Ottomania: Troll has returned.; +62|6760|Istanbul-Turkey

FEOS wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
san4 wrote:
So "incredible anger" isn't the reason Iran supplies Hamas with money, training, and missiles to shoot at Israeli towns?
Probably it is, its also a proxy war against an enemy ally, a concept the US is very familiar with.

Now can you explain why America supplies Israel with unlimited money, training and bombs and missiles for the Israelis to fire at the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians and soon the Iranians?
Probably for the same reason we provide aid to Palestine and Lebanon.

This must be a joke.

I never heard usa aided lebanon or palestine, simply because relations with Israel will hurt from this. I never saw us ships that are hurrying to help victims like in Georgia?

Also, I think you have no idea about the amount of money that Israel was funded in the meaning of "military equipment" since Israel was settled, then you make such a absurd comparison.

your statement should be corrected as " Probably for the same reason USSR provided Mig's and T-72 tanks to arab nations to purge Middle East from Israel and USA."

Last edited by Ottomania (2009-01-06 03:14:27)

2009-01-06 03:35:21

#908

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6890|USA

TheAussieReaper wrote:
And with the blockade the Hospitals were already short on supplies.

Kinda makes ya wonder how come they are never short on weapons, bomb vests and rockets, don't it? Neh, probably not.

2009-01-06 03:37:09

#909

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6392|what

lowing wrote:
TheAussieReaper wrote:
And with the blockade the Hospitals were already short on supplies.
Kinda makes ya wonder how come they are never short on weapons, bomb vests and rockets, don't it? Neh, probably not.

They are only short on tanks, missiles, helicopter gunships, an army and medical supplies.

Yeah. Makes you think.

2009-01-06 03:40:00

#910

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|6997|Argentina

lowing wrote:
TheAussieReaper wrote:
And with the blockade the Hospitals were already short on supplies.
Kinda makes ya wonder how come they are never short on weapons, bomb vests and rockets, don't it? Neh, probably not.

They = Hamas or they = Palestinians?

2009-01-06 03:42:22

#911

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6890|USA

TheAussieReaper wrote:
lowing wrote:
TheAussieReaper wrote:
And with the blockade the Hospitals were already short on supplies.
Kinda makes ya wonder how come they are never short on weapons, bomb vests and rockets, don't it? Neh, probably not.
They are only short on tanks, missiles, helicopter gunships, an army and medical supplies.

Yeah. Makes you think.

Sounds like if they tried living with the Israelis instead of trying to kill them all, as their grand solution, they would be better off then. Just a guess.

2009-01-06 03:44:12

#912

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6392|what

lowing wrote:
Sounds like if they tried living with the Israelis instead of trying to kill them all, as their grand solution, they would be better off then. Just a guess.

Weird. You could replace the word Israelis with Palestinians and it would still make sense.

2009-01-06 03:51:25

#913

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6890|USA

TheAussieReaper wrote:
lowing wrote:
Sounds like if they tried living with the Israelis instead of trying to kill them all, as their grand solution, they would be better off then. Just a guess.
Weird. You could replace the word Israelis with Palestinians and it would still make sense.

Sorry, it does not, Israel has constantly offered olive branches and made concessions that did nothing to stop the attacks from the terrorists. The terrorists have never made good on any peace initiatives. SO no, that does not make sense.

2009-01-06 03:54:19

#914

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|6997|Argentina

lowing wrote:
TheAussieReaper wrote:
lowing wrote:
Sounds like if they tried living with the Israelis instead of trying to kill them all, as their grand solution, they would be better off then. Just a guess.
Weird. You could replace the word Israelis with Palestinians and it would still make sense.
Sorry, it does not, Israel has constantly offered olive branches and made concessions that did nothing to stop the attacks from the terrorists. The terrorists have never made good on any peace initiatives. SO no, that does not make sense.

The same olive branches they then bulldoze?

2009-01-06 03:56:47

#915

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6890|USA

sergeriver wrote:
lowing wrote:
TheAussieReaper wrote:

Weird. You could replace the word Israelis with Palestinians and it would still make sense.
Sorry, it does not, Israel has constantly offered olive branches and made concessions that did nothing to stop the attacks from the terrorists. The terrorists have never made good on any peace initiatives. SO no, that does not make sense.
The same olive branches they then bulldoze?

Only after the olive branch was shot from Israel's hand.

2009-01-06 03:59:29

#916

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6392|what

lowing wrote:
Only after the olive branch was shot from Israel's hand.

Shot? You mean hit with a missile. Unless I missed the part where Palestine even had an army.

2009-01-06 04:17:45

#917

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6890|USA

TheAussieReaper wrote:
lowing wrote:
Only after the olive branch was shot from Israel's hand.
Shot? You mean hit with a missile. Unless I missed the part where Palestine even had an army.

yeah, never saw a Plaestinian with a gun.....anyway, the point remains, and in fact, you just re-enforced it.

2009-01-06 04:23:00

#918

I think its safe to say the so called olive branch eludes us all.

2009-01-06 04:27:46

#919

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

Lowing wrote:
Sorry, it does not, Israel has constantly offered olive branches and made concessions that did nothing to stop the attacks from the terrorists.

And Hitler offered the British plenty of olive branches, treaties etc, same with the Russians.
He had no intention of honouring any of them, same with the Israelies, they make an offer with the one hand and carry out provocative acts with the other.

Fuck Israel

2009-01-06 04:36:35

#920

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6710

Dilbert_X wrote:
Lowing wrote:
Sorry, it does not, Israel has constantly offered olive branches and made concessions that did nothing to stop the attacks from the terrorists.
And Hitler offered the British plenty of olive branches, treaties etc, same with the Russians.
He had no intention of honouring any of them, same with the Israelies, they make an offer with the one hand and carry out provocative acts with the other.

"Peace in our time!"

Boom boom boom genocide genocide genocide air raid air raid air raid.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2009-01-06 04:37:44

#921

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:
The key thing you're missing there is Dilbert's assertion that it is being used on civilians (hence being shot directly into Gaza).

Completely different situation than Fallujah.

Like I said, your govt has already admitted WP was used as an anti-personnel weapon in Fallujah, which is unlawful.

As its obviously being shot directly into gaza over a densely packed civilian area what other purpose is there?
We have pictures of multiple rounds in the same area, so its not target marking.
Its hard to believe the Israelis need to use smoke to mask their movement.

Its pretty obvious to me its not a flechette weapon from the pics.

Fuck Israel

2009-01-06 05:05:22

#922

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6890|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:
Lowing wrote:
Sorry, it does not, Israel has constantly offered olive branches and made concessions that did nothing to stop the attacks from the terrorists.
And Hitler offered the British plenty of olive branches, treaties etc, same with the Russians.
He had no intention of honouring any of them, same with the Israelies, they make an offer with the one hand and carry out provocative acts with the other.

Please show where Israel broke any peace initiatives WITHOUT any Palestinian provocation.

2009-01-06 05:16:13

#923

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6392|what

lowing wrote:
Please show where Israel broke any peace initiatives WITHOUT any Palestinian provocation.

How long do you think Israel had been planning this invasion? Seriously?

Because it was at least 6 months.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/de … ercussions

Now ask yourself when did the last round of peace talks commence, and the resulting cease fire due to expire?

So then, even you should be able to work out that within 10 or so days of the cease fire ending, Israel had 6 months of planning for this invasion to occur and were always going to move in, provocation or no.

2009-01-06 05:22:13

#924

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6890|USA

TheAussieReaper wrote:
lowing wrote:
Please show where Israel broke any peace initiatives WITHOUT any Palestinian provocation.
How long do you think Israel had been planning this invasion? Seriously?

Because it was at least 6 months.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/de … ercussions

Now ask yourself when did the last round of peace talks commence, and the resulting cease fire due to expire?

So then, even you should be able to work out that within 10 or so days of the cease fire ending, Israel had 6 months of planning for this invasion to occur and were always going to move in, provocation or no.

You didn't answer my question, show me when Israel broke a peace treaty unprovoked by the Terrorists.

Has there been a time in history when Israel didn't get to relax its posture? Are you saying that if Israel would just relax that they attacks into it would stop?

Simply put, Israel knew what was goint to happen so they prepared for it.

I guess if a nation prepares for nuclear war that means they planned on starting one all along.

2009-01-06 05:44:24

#925

Casualty figures

550 Palestinians have been killed in Operation Cast Lead

100 of the dead are children

2,500 Palestinians have been wounded

4 Israeli civilians have been killed since the operation began, and four Israeli soldiers. Seventy-seven soldiers have been injured

Source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 454204.ece

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Kmarion wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Globalsecurity.org wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Globalsecurity.org wrote:

ATG wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

san4 wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

Lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Lowing wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

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