Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Ottomania wrote:

when russia invaded georgia everybody remonstrated. now not even a single country condemned israel for what they have done.
No everyone didn't. But there are fundamental flaws in your attempted comparison.

Kmarion wrote:

The received wisdom on the Caucasus war casts Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili as either villain or dupe, foolishly provoking a staged response from Russia by firing on civilians in Tshkanvili.  Michael Totten, now reporting from the ground at Pajamas Media, says that this anaylsis is completely wrong.  In fact, South Ossetian separatists broke the cease-fire by firing on Georgian soldiers, and Russia mobilized its forces before Saakashvili’s targeted assault on separatists in the Tshkanvili area:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2 … bout-1.php
Virtually everyone believes Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili foolishly provoked a Russian invasion on August 7, 2008, when he sent troops into the breakaway district of South Ossetia. “The warfare began Aug. 7 when Georgia launched a barrage targeting South Ossetia,” the Associated Press reported over the weekend in typical fashion.

    Virtually everyone is wrong. Georgia didn’t start it on August 7, nor on any other date. The South Ossetian militia started it on August 6 when its fighters fired on Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian villages with weapons banned by the agreement hammered out between the two sides in 1994. At the same time, the Russian military sent its invasion force bearing down on Georgia from the north side of the Caucasus Mountains on the Russian side of the border through the Roki tunnel and into Georgia. This happened before Saakashvili sent additional troops to South Ossetia and allegedly started the war.
The real story of this conflict begins decades ago, during the Soviet period of Russian empire.  The Kremlin used ethnic rivalries to keep its disparate populations at war with each other rather than Moscow.  The Soviets then set themselves in position to act as mediators, when in fact they fanned the ethnic rivalries for their own purposes of division.

This doesn’t mean that Georgia doesn’t have some responsibility for this conflict.  As two regional experts explained to Totten, Georgia had its own brand of ethnic nationalists who threw fuel onto this fire after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.  Eventually, conflicts would drive milder forms of ethnic cleansing than seen in the former Yugoslavia, but destabilizing nonetheless.  When Saakashvili came to power in the Rose Revolution, he inherited a nation already riven by ethnic conflict and two territories with reason to view Georgian sovereignty with suspicion.  Despite his efforts to woo Abkhazians and Ossetians back into the Georgian union, too many hard feelings remain — and Russia began to play the old games that the Soviets abandoned during their collapse.

How did the Russians provoke this latest conflict?  In April, they began issuing Russian passports to residents of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.  This gave them a legal status as Russian citizens, and gave Moscow a pretense for protecting them with military force.  It resembles nothing more than Hitler’s efforts in the Sudetenland in 1938, which ended in the collapse in Munich of the West.  With this kind of backing, the separatists felt free to launch attacks on Georgian forces, and as early as May Saakashvili warned that Russia wanted a war in the Caucasus.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08182008/ne … 124993.htm
OVER the weekend, photographic proof emerged that the Russians used murderous Chechen mercenaries to do their dirtiest dirty work in Georgia: The ragtag unit in question is so vicious that, last April, Chechnya's Russian-installed "president" demanded it be disbanded.
Be sure to read all of Michael’s excellent report.  While all sides have historical responsibility for fanning ethnic conflict, the methods and motives of Vladimir Putin and his henchmen are quite transparent.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6861|London, England
You never know what to think about the whole Russia Georgia crap. On one hand, you can beleive everyone. On the other, you can believe this guy, who says everyone is wrong and he's right.

Hard choice

And are you sure about nobody condemning Israel, not even Turkey...or any other of them type of countries...?

There's been alot of talk from alot of countries talking about Israel, well except the US, so yeah....

Also you have to understand, that international politics is nothing else but a school playground, and everyone knows how a school playground works so no need to explain that one
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Mekstizzle wrote:

You never know what to think about the whole Russia Georgia crap. On one hand, you can beleive everyone. On the other, you can believe this guy, who says everyone is wrong and he's right.

Hard choice

And are you sure about nobody condemning Israel, not even Turkey...or any other of them type of countries...?

There's been alot of talk from alot of countries talking about Israel, well except the US, so yeah....

Also you have to understand, that international politics is nothing else but a school playground, and everyone knows how a school playground works so no need to explain that one
The Arab states have done everything but break off diplomatic relations. He is beating a non existent nobody understand the Palestinian struggle drum. I don't know where he is getting his information.

I'd be all for a cease fire if it wasn't one way.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Ottomania
Troll has returned.
+62|6761|Istanbul-Turkey
Agressions to the current situation is very weak compared to the georgian invasion. I dont even mention about USA.

why usa is so eager to support israel?

and kmarion, that michael guy looked biased to me.

Last edited by Ottomania (2009-01-04 14:27:12)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Ottomania wrote:

Kmarion, in basics both is same. both is invasion.  saakashvili disturbed russia so they make an ivason. same situation for hamas. much more civilians killed in palestine, lebanon compared to georgia.

and yes, nobody condemns israel. they just speak flux of words.
You are likining it to Israel causing ethnic rivalries between other Palestinians and then going in to protect Palestinians from each other. Geopolitical warfare is not nearly as simple as you are trying to make it out to be. You said no one was condemning Israel. A condemnation is a flux of words.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Ottomania wrote:

Agressions to the current situation is very weak compared to the georgian invasion. I dont even mention about USA.

why usa is so eager to support israel?

and kmarion, that michael guy looked biased to me.
Why? Because there was an agreed cease fire already in place. Hamas couldn't even honor a six month truce. Hamas is intentionally setting innocents in the line of fire. Hamas is the biggest threat to Palestinians.

That is why I support the elimination of Hamas. For the protection of both Israelis and PALESTINIANS.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Ottomania
Troll has returned.
+62|6761|Istanbul-Turkey
method that is used to eliminate hamas doesnt seem to be protecting palestinians.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Ottomania wrote:

method that is used to eliminate hamas doesnt seem to be protecting palestinians.
Unfortunately you are correct. Hamas has had some success. That is the intent of launching rockets from and storing them in densely populated areas. They insist on civilian casualties when they do that. It rallies the mentally deficient to the side of Hamas (which is not the Palestinian side imho). It is also why the IDF must go in on foot to eliminate the weapons cache. IF they don't it's perpetual warfare.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7004|d
INSIDE HAMAS

Aired: February 10, 2008 on Channel 4 Hamas, the 'Islamic Resistance Movement', is now 20 years old. Seen by the EU and US as a 'terrorist organization,' it won internationally recognized elections to rule the Palestinian Authority in January 2006. The newly elected government was not recognized by most of the world and a financial and trade embargo by Israel and the international community followed, starving the Hamas government of any funding and the governmental legitimacy it craved. More documentaries.


Good docu, just watching it.

[google]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1127653652241016730[/google]

EDIT: Finished watching it, makes some good and bad point about Hamas. Its interesting to see how Hamas become strong due to increasing isreal aggression and if left alone, Hamas would loose power. By invading Gaza, isreal has just bought Hamas back from the dead and into the hearts and minds of all the people. GG israel, you just fuked yourself.

Favorite Quote; You don't negotiate with your friends, you negotiate with the enemy. (in relation to isreal negotiating with fatah)

Last edited by mafia996630 (2009-01-04 15:43:39)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6795
I tire of the Arab states I really do. They have the most effective weapon on earth and they sit idly by using the Fatah-Hamas spat as an excuse. Over the last decade or two Israel has increased its stranglehold on sectors of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, persuading/coercing nations like the US to come out with statements endorsing contravention of international law (the illegal settlements being 'new realities on the ground'), has used their own internal political rollercoaster to subvert political negotiations when they seem to be getting somewhere and have reduced Palestinian to medieval subsistence/handout living in completely economically stagnant open air concentration camps. TURN OFF THE FUCKING OIL TAPS.

I won't be lamenting the deaths of Hamas operatives but I certainly will be wholeheartedly cheering the death of each and every single IDF soldier soon to be announced. Fuck you Israel, this 60 year rape must come to an end. You can't use Hamas as an excuse for not righting your wrongs.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-01-04 15:32:26)

jord
Member
+2,382|6918|The North, beyond the wall.

CameronPoe wrote:

I tire of the Arab states I really do. They have the most effective weapon on earth and they sit idly by using the Fatah-Hamas spat as an excuse. Over the last decade or two Israel has increased its stranglehold on sectors of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, persuading/coercing nations like the US to come out with statements endorsing contravention of international law (the illegal settlements being 'new realities on the ground'), has used their own internal political rollercoaster to subvert political negotiations when they seem to be getting somewhere and have reduced Palestinian to medieval subsistence/handout living in completely economically stagnant open air concentration camps. TURN OFF THE FUCKING OIL TAPS.

I won't be lamenting the deaths of Hamas operatives but I certainly will be wholeheartedly cheering the death of each and every single IDF soldier soon to be announced. Fuck you Israel, this 60 year rape must come to an end. You can't use Hamas as an excuse for righting your wrongs.
Yes because cheering soldiers deaths make sense. I've seen you post this before cam and it's still just as disgusting as it was then. Cheer evil people's deaths, politicians, rapists, etc by all means.

Oh and Israel's "60 year rape" won't come to an end because the people in power aren't complete morons and the people their civilian population are not total and utter sheep that don't know what's best for themselves. Arabs need to look at why countries like Israel and the West are so successful and take a leaf out of our books.

If you are only going to address 1 part I'd rather you address the first part. It intrigues and disgusts me how anyone can openly admit they relish in a soldiers death.

Last edited by jord (2009-01-04 15:43:51)

ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6889

CameronPoe wrote:

I won't be lamenting the deaths of Hamas operatives but I certainly will be wholeheartedly cheering the death of each and every single IDF soldier soon to be announced. Fuck you Israel, this 60 year rape must come to an end. You can't use Hamas as an excuse for not righting your wrongs.
Why? As Kerry's sig once said 'Soldiers don't make the policy' (OWTTE). Much as I disagree with Israels tactics here, I have friends in the IDF, and I don't wish for any of them or their comrades to be killed because I disagree with Israels politics. Also worth noting the conscription means that you'll end up with a lot of 18 year old kids that have no interest in being there.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6997|Argentina

CameronPoe wrote:

I tire of the Arab states I really do. They have the most effective weapon on earth and they sit idly by using the Fatah-Hamas spat as an excuse. Over the last decade or two Israel has increased its stranglehold on sectors of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, persuading/coercing nations like the US to come out with statements endorsing contravention of international law (the illegal settlements being 'new realities on the ground'), has used their own internal political rollercoaster to subvert political negotiations when they seem to be getting somewhere and have reduced Palestinian to medieval subsistence/handout living in completely economically stagnant open air concentration camps. TURN OFF THE FUCKING OIL TAPS.

I won't be lamenting the deaths of Hamas operatives but I certainly will be wholeheartedly cheering the death of each and every single IDF soldier soon to be announced. Fuck you Israel, this 60 year rape must come to an end. You can't use Hamas as an excuse for not righting your wrongs.
Well Cam tbh this time Israel must act.  Hamas must be taken out.  These scumbags are one of the main reasons, and excuses that Israel use, not to achieve peace.  They are killing their own people.  This must stop now and the only solution I see is Israel entering Gaza and killing them one by one.  Then, they can talk about negotiations and shit like that.

Last edited by sergeriver (2009-01-04 15:46:30)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

mafia wrote:

Its interesting to see how Hamas become strong due to increasing isreal aggression and if left alone, Hamas would loose power. By invading Gaza, isreal has just bought Hamas back from the dead and into the hearts and minds of all the people. GG israel, you just fuked yourself.
Pretty well sums it up.

The Palestinians are in a no win situation.
If they act moderate the Israelis screw them, and the world doesn't notice.
If they act militant the Israelis have an excuse to screw them, and the world thinks its OK.

It suits Israel to have have Hamas in charge, so they don't have to negotiate.
Fuck Israel
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7004|d
The majority of Israelis are drafted into the military at the age of eighteen. Men serve three years and women serve two years.[159] Following compulsory service, Israeli men join the reserve forces and do several weeks of reserve duty every year until their forties. Most women are exempt from reserve duty. Arab citizens of Israel (except the Druze) and those engaged in full-time religious studies are exempt from military service, although the exemption of yeshiva students has been a source of contention in Israeli society for many years.[160][161] An alternative for those who receive exemptions on various grounds is Sherut Leumi, or national service, which involves a program of service in hospitals, schools and other social welfare frameworks.[162] As a result of its conscription program, the IDF maintains approximately 168,000 active troops and an additional 408,000 reservists.[163]
ummm, considering most isrealis are drafted into the army at age 18 due to compulsory service, i reckon its kind of hard to kill anyone that is ACTUALLY innocent.


https://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/20081228/1-DSC_0141.jpg

New York City, December 28, 2008

1500 people, including a group of Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews, in New York City marched from Rockefeller Center to the Israeli Consulate on 2nd Avenue to protest the Israeli government's bombings in Gaza.


Emergency Protest Demonstration Against the Zionist Massacre in Gaza
December 28, 2008

https://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/20081228durban/IMG_1150%5B1%5D.jpg

Durban, South Africa, December 28, 2008

Rabbi Yisroel Weiss, Neturei Karta representative, delivered a speech on Sunday at the Al-Ansaar Souk in Durban South Africa. Rabbi Weiss was speaking against the recent Israeli brutality in Gaza



Protest Against Zionist Demolition of Palestinian Homes in Jerusalem
July 28, 2008

https://www.nkusa.org/activities/demonstrations/20080728/1-28july%20mfz%20beit%20hanina016.jpg
Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews in the Holy Land joined a demonstration organized by Arab leaders, Hatam Abdul Kader, the Jerusalem affairs adviser to Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad and Rafaq Al Heusseini, Advisor to the Palestinian President to protest against the demolition of Palestinian homes in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Beit Hanini.

Zionist officials say they destroyed the home because of a zoning violation. They call it a legal demolition of an illegally expanded building. Seven families had called the four-story apartment building home.





EDIT:

Wow, this dum kid
https://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45345000/jpg/_45345081_gaza0401galleryap1.jpg

thinks the sink will protect him from this
https://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45345000/jpg/_45345080_gaza0401gallerygettyb.jpg

(*http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7810301.stm)
what a noob.

Last edited by mafia996630 (2009-01-04 16:12:29)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6997|Argentina

Dilbert_X wrote:

mafia wrote:

Its interesting to see how Hamas become strong due to increasing isreal aggression and if left alone, Hamas would loose power. By invading Gaza, isreal has just bought Hamas back from the dead and into the hearts and minds of all the people. GG israel, you just fuked yourself.
Pretty well sums it up.

The Palestinians are in a no win situation.
If they act moderate the Israelis screw them, and the world doesn't notice.
If they act militant the Israelis have an excuse to screw them, and the world thinks its OK.

It suits Israel to have have Hamas in charge, so they don't have to negotiate.
After Hamas is taken out Israel will have no excuses.  It's in the Palestinians best interests getting rid of Hamas.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6778|Long Island, New York

sergeriver wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

mafia wrote:

Its interesting to see how Hamas become strong due to increasing isreal aggression and if left alone, Hamas would loose power. By invading Gaza, isreal has just bought Hamas back from the dead and into the hearts and minds of all the people. GG israel, you just fuked yourself.
Pretty well sums it up.

The Palestinians are in a no win situation.
If they act moderate the Israelis screw them, and the world doesn't notice.
If they act militant the Israelis have an excuse to screw them, and the world thinks its OK.

It suits Israel to have have Hamas in charge, so they don't have to negotiate.
After Hamas is taken out Israel will have no excuses.  It's in the Palestinians best interests getting rid of Hamas.
Obviously not, because the only reason they're there is to take out rocket firing position, with the ultimate goal (although probably unachievable) being to take out Hamas.

Israel has said before and I'll say it for them again - if the rockets stopped firing tomorrow, the military operation would end.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Sergeriver wrote:

After Hamas is taken out Israel will have no excuses.  It's in the Palestinians best interests getting rid of Hamas.
But they will carry on with the blockades, targeted assasinations, land grabs, water theft etc nevertheless.
And then when the region has settled down they'll just continue provoking the Palestinians into another conflict.
Fuck Israel
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7004|d

Poseidon wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


Pretty well sums it up.

The Palestinians are in a no win situation.
If they act moderate the Israelis screw them, and the world doesn't notice.
If they act militant the Israelis have an excuse to screw them, and the world thinks its OK.

It suits Israel to have have Hamas in charge, so they don't have to negotiate.
After Hamas is taken out Israel will have no excuses.  It's in the Palestinians best interests getting rid of Hamas.
Obviously not, because the only reason they're there is to take out rocket firing position, with the ultimate goal (although probably unachievable) being to take out Hamas.

Israel has said before and I'll say it for them again - if the rockets stopped firing tomorrow, the military operation would end.
And instead will siege Palestine, like Cam said ; It's better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees!.
san4
The Mas
+311|6928|NYC, a place to live

Dilbert_X wrote:

mafia wrote:

Its interesting to see how Hamas become strong due to increasing isreal aggression and if left alone, Hamas would loose power. By invading Gaza, isreal has just bought Hamas back from the dead and into the hearts and minds of all the people. GG israel, you just fuked yourself.
Pretty well sums it up.

The Palestinians are in a no win situation.
If they act moderate the Israelis screw them, and the world doesn't notice.
If they act militant the Israelis have an excuse to screw them, and the world thinks its OK.

It suits Israel to have have Hamas in charge, so they don't have to negotiate.
At what point in time were the Palestinians and other Arabs willing to make peace with Israel? They have never tried anything other than violence.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

sergeriver wrote:

After Hamas is taken out Israel will have no excuses.  It's in the Palestinians best interests getting rid of Hamas.
Everyone needs to stare at this and let it sink in. It's in everyone's best interest.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

SAN4 wrote:

At what point in time were the Palestinians and other Arabs willing to make peace with Israel? They have never tried anything other than violence.
The Egyptians have made peace, the Lebanese have made peace, the Jordanians have made peace, Fatah have negotiated a kind of peace, other Arabian countries have said they are willing to make peace and recognise Israel subject to Israel abiding by international law - Saudi Arabia, Syria etc, Hamas have said repeatedly they are willing to negotiate and potentially recognise Israel.

It does not suit Israel to be at peace, then they can't claim to be the victims any more.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-01-04 16:17:41)

Fuck Israel
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6769|Global Command
I seem to remember that the people of Palestine voted in Hamas.

Therefor, the people in Gaza are either Hamas militants, or supporters of the militants. Either way, they are getting what the have been asking for, which is war.

Are the armies of Syria massing on Israels borders. Egypt? Jordan?

Nobody gives a flying fuck accept left wing emos here and in Europe.
Basically, Hamas, Fatah and all of their supporters need to die and then a peace process can begin again.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Kmarion wrote:

Everyone needs to stare at this and let it sink in. It's in everyone's best interest.
They said that about the PLO, and Fatah, it made no difference, the Israelis just find another excuse.
Fuck Israel
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6733|Connecticut

Dilbert_X wrote:

SAN4 wrote:

At what point in time were the Palestinians and other Arabs willing to make peace with Israel? They have never tried anything other than violence.
The Egyptians have made peace, the Lebanese have made peace, the Jordanians have made peace, Fatah have negotiated a kind of peace, other Arabian countries have said they are willing to make peace and recognise Israel subject to Israel abiding by international law - Saudi Arabia, Syria etc, Hamas have said repeatedly they are willing to negotiate and potentially recognise Israel.

It does not suit Israel to be at peace, then they can't claim to be the victims any more.
Well as you pointed out tto me earlier the entire ME should remain pissed at the US for a generation or so. How long does Isreal (Jews) get to be bitter for being fucked over the last few thousand years?

Ya know what. Fuck em. I could care less about that place anyways.

Last edited by deeznutz1245 (2009-01-04 16:21:03)

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