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2008-12-24 09:34:48
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6859
Pretty much every country in the western world is dealing with the same or similar economic problems. If you were in the corridors of power what measures would you suggest as to how the situation should be dealt with, economically speaking? Please flesh out your suggestions with detail and cover any criticism your approach might be open to, in terms of sustainability, etc. I've heard lots of complaints but not very many constructive ideas/solutions (I don't really have one myself) - I'd just like to hear some thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-24 09:36:09)

2008-12-24 09:50:33
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6853|UK

My suggestion is to leave it alone.  Stop trying to put out a fire by throwing gas on it (<3 Schiff).

It is obvious that a correction, must take place, everything there doing is just going to make us hit the ground harder. 


Martyn
2008-12-24 10:06:46
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6859

Bell wrote:

My suggestion is to leave it alone.  Stop trying to put out a fire by throwing gas on it (<3 Schiff).

It is obvious that a correction, must take place, everything there doing is just going to make us hit the ground harder. 


Martyn
There are merits to the 'leave it alone' approach but I would point out a couple of things.

In order for the free market to work imperfect human beings must engaged in the market must function logically and without emotion at all times. Unfortunately that is patently not the case. Operating a system upon which such intangible things as 'confidence' have a bearing is not a simple task.

1) Allowing one or other of the gigantic banks to collapse could have resulted in systemic failure of the entire international financial system. It would be similar to 'instability' as observed in mechanical or electrical responses to a particular event. The laws of physics are mirrored in nature, why not in free market banking, which should mirror nature itself quite closely (in theory). Recovering from the ensuing chaos could cost far far more than the cost currently being paid.

2) Part of the problem right now is that property and stock market speculation (particularly property) is a fundamental flaw in the free market system. More measures, I believe, need to be put in place to police this. Because at the end of the day it's not just the speculators that feel the pinch, it's everybody.

3) Assessment of risk in the banking sector must be made much more conservative (I don't care how much it curbs economic 'growth' (fake and unsustainable growth it would have seemed in the current situation)) and the amount of collateral one must have to secure a loan.

Other than that I would allow the free market to sort itself out, save for humanitarian intervention if called for.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-24 10:53:13)

2008-12-24 19:17:07
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6797|Connecticut
Quit your job. If you don't have one, you can't lose it.
Malloy must go
2008-12-24 19:36:21
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6852|San Diego, CA, USA
Instead of government trying to spend and increase its coffers, reduce taxes for everyone.  This will be a stimulus effect on the economy during which time the government may have deficits in the short term.

Basically I'm suggesting we grow our way out of a slowdown.
2008-12-24 20:16:25
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7020
Accountability for everyone... a move back to sane and proper lending practices... if you make 11.00 and hour...you can't afford a 450,000 dollar townhouse... sorry Barney Fwank... lol... 
  I go back and forth about the high pay for CEO's and higher ups.. If they provide value to the company they should make as much as the company is willing to pay...(like an athlete in baseball... is paying a player 250 million over 7 years too much.... or does he provide a larger return to the owner by filling seats and merchandise etc?)  On the other hand... if the CEO drives a company into the ground... send him/her packing... no pay...no bonuses... adios....   
  The big 3 have finally come to the cliff...they new this day would come... but didn't prepare... over paid in comparison to other car companies staff... they need to reinvent themselves... we can throw them 15-50 billion every 3 months or so until we are all living in tents and hunting squirrels for dinner when we all run out of money...
  We need to have the banks come off of the money they were given in the bailout.... and start lending to small businesses to start the economy pumping again... 
  and mostly... we just have to ride this out and things will get better... I have lived through a couple of recessions...
and luckily the desire in the US for people to succeed and prosper will get things going again...   Hopefully Obama continues to make good decisions and doesn't stifle growth... he has some good people working with him so i'm optimistic...   If not I vote for Cam for president and lowing for VP... we'll work out the citizenship thing later... lol...
Love is the answer
2008-12-24 22:03:32
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6833|Global Command
The first thing I would do is abolish the federal reserve and get us back on a gold or silver standard.
( this would require a military element to attack and destroy standing private armies of the bankers families )
The second thing I would do is nationalize certain industries such as oil and electricity.
( there would be a even split between overhead, future infrastructure and profit that would be paid into a mix of exploration and government ' profit ' )

I would have a cap on income of 25 million per year.
( if 25 million per year isn't enough, fuck you )

I would make political corruption a capitol offense. ( There would be harsh term limits and the era of career politicians would be over. )

I would erect a massive set of gallows, and I would hang anybody that protested too loudly.
When my work was finished I would set a precedent; each president, at the end of his term would commit suicide. No man would take the office unless he believed the change he was bringing was worth dying for.
2008-12-25 00:20:41
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6457|what

Spend up big on major infrastructure. Roads, transport, cable internet, public services. Even if you have to spend your way into national debt. It will create jobs, keep the economy going, etc

Cut taxes for the lower quartile, raise of the "rich".

Hand out one off payments to those likely to spend it, low income earners supporting a family.

Criticism of this sort of proposal is that you can spend away any government surplus the country has\had. But my way of thinking is that governments shouldn't have huge surpluses unless this is a time to use it. Otherwise how big a crisis do you need before you touch a surplus? It is tax payer money, hoarding it does nothing for them who need it.

I'd provide incentives to auto manufacturers to go green, in terms of economic packages. Get them spending more on research and development, they are to most vulnerable and now is the chance to also push for greener tech.

I'd try to increase exports and imports by free trade agreements, less tariffs on imports.

Anything that helps bring money into the country and keep it circulating within is how you fight a recession.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2008-12-25 00:37:40
BVC
Member
+325|6999
Sensible lending practises.

As far as auto-makers go, encourage eco-friendly alternatives - any incentives should also extend to related industries - battery companies, generation and so-on.  Also, increase alternatives funding every time oil goes up, purely as a way of keeping OPEC in line.
2008-12-25 02:34:18
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6453|'straya

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Spend up big on major infrastructure. Roads, transport, cable internet, public services. Even if you have to spend your way into national debt. It will create jobs, keep the economy going, etc

Cut taxes for the lower quartile, raise of the "rich".

Hand out one off payments to those likely to spend it, low income earners supporting a family.

Criticism of this sort of proposal is that you can spend away any government surplus the country has\had. But my way of thinking is that governments shouldn't have huge surpluses unless this is a time to use it. Otherwise how big a crisis do you need before you touch a surplus? It is tax payer money, hoarding it does nothing for them who need it.

I'd provide incentives to auto manufacturers to go green, in terms of economic packages. Get them spending more on research and development, they are to most vulnerable and now is the chance to also push for greener tech.

I'd try to increase exports and imports by free trade agreements, less tariffs on imports.

Anything that helps bring money into the country and keep it circulating within is how you fight a recession.
You and Mr Rudd seem to have similar sentiments

But your not a smug arsehole like he is
2008-12-25 02:45:03
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6457|what

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

You and Mr Rudd seem to have similar sentiments

But your not a smug arsehole like he is https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/rac_goshawk/awesome.png
Yeah, except he isn't spending big on infrastructure. He expects the states too, and they fuck up roads, rail, all public transport for that matter, then hospital's and water. The broadband plan is totally fucked thanks to Telstra being assholes too.

But enough about Aus. https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/rac_goshawk/awesome.png
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2008-12-25 03:06:17
jord
Member
+2,382|6982|The North, beyond the wall.
Take over the media who do anything but help matters.
2008-12-25 03:52:02
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6969|NT, like Mick Dundee

Join the military.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
2008-12-25 04:13:25
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6410|eXtreme to the maX
Nationalise whats broken, car industry maybe, mortgages definitely, pensions probably.

Infrastructure projects, put everyone through 1-2 years military training - beats dole.

Build bigger prisons and give dirtbags decent jailtime -> employs people, cuts crime during depression, cuts unemployment.
Fuck Israel
2008-12-25 06:11:35
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6859

Dilbert_X wrote:

Nationalise whats broken, car industry maybe, mortgages definitely, pensions probably.

Infrastructure projects, put everyone through 1-2 years military training - beats dole.

Build bigger prisons and give dirtbags decent jailtime -> employs people, cuts crime during depression, cuts unemployment.
I don't really see how nationalising businesses is going to result in anything other than stagnation/regression.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-25 06:11:52)

2008-12-25 07:38:46
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7020

CameronPoe wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Nationalise whats broken, car industry maybe, mortgages definitely, pensions probably.

Infrastructure projects, put everyone through 1-2 years military training - beats dole.

Build bigger prisons and give dirtbags decent jailtime -> employs people, cuts crime during depression, cuts unemployment.
I don't really see how nationalising businesses is going to result in anything other than stagnation/regression.
great idea dill... the govt will fix it... glad you don't make any important decisions in real life for our country or yours..lol

Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2008-12-25 07:43:00)

Love is the answer
2008-12-25 18:50:58
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6709|North Carolina
End all government pork and balance the budget.  Cut the military budget by a third, and spend half of the savings on improving access to healthcare for the average citizen.  Oh yeah, and slowly phase out Social Security.

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-12-25 18:51:25)

2008-12-25 20:00:31
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6715|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

End all government pork and balance the budget.  Cut the military budget by a third, and spend half of the savings on improving access to healthcare for the average citizen.  Oh yeah, and slowly phase out Social Security.
You'd have to cut the military budget by more than a third to balance the budget...and you still wouldn't have any "savings" to spend on anything else. Zero-sum game.

My thoughts:

1. Bad mortgage debt caused the credit markets to seize. Bad bailout fundamentals have kept the markets frozen.
    - Govt purchases bad mortgages, but requires those who accept the money to actually lend it out (vice what they are doing today).
    - Govt requires all lenders to renegotiate the mortgages to terms that will ensure they are paid off and not foreclosed...the banks could do that today, if they hadn't sold the mortgages to hedge funds to package into mortgage-backed securities
    - Any bank that doesn't renegotiate to prevent foreclosure (within reason) gets a 30-year moratorium on govt business...no contracts, no direct deposit from federal or state workers

2. Govt loans money to auto industry with similar strings attached (much as they are trying to do now).
    - UAW sucks a fat one...reaping what they sowed with their ridiculous contracts...or goes away
    - Auto industry has tons of creative latitude...in building low/no-emissions vehicles

3. Zero out all budget lines, forcing every penny to be justified
    - Eliminates pork, as any addition to an approved budget line must be justified to a veto-proof margin
    - Eliminates waste in government, as non-performing agencies simply close shop
    - Workers in eliminated agencies given the option of working on infrastructure projects or finding private-sector jobs

That's just for starters...I'm sure there's tons of holes in it.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-12-25 22:11:25
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6709|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

End all government pork and balance the budget.  Cut the military budget by a third, and spend half of the savings on improving access to healthcare for the average citizen.  Oh yeah, and slowly phase out Social Security.
You'd have to cut the military budget by more than a third to balance the budget...and you still wouldn't have any "savings" to spend on anything else. Zero-sum game.

My thoughts:

1. Bad mortgage debt caused the credit markets to seize. Bad bailout fundamentals have kept the markets frozen.
    - Govt purchases bad mortgages, but requires those who accept the money to actually lend it out (vice what they are doing today).
    - Govt requires all lenders to renegotiate the mortgages to terms that will ensure they are paid off and not foreclosed...the banks could do that today, if they hadn't sold the mortgages to hedge funds to package into mortgage-backed securities
    - Any bank that doesn't renegotiate to prevent foreclosure (within reason) gets a 30-year moratorium on govt business...no contracts, no direct deposit from federal or state workers

2. Govt loans money to auto industry with similar strings attached (much as they are trying to do now).
    - UAW sucks a fat one...reaping what they sowed with their ridiculous contracts...or goes away
    - Auto industry has tons of creative latitude...in building low/no-emissions vehicles

3. Zero out all budget lines, forcing every penny to be justified
    - Eliminates pork, as any addition to an approved budget line must be justified to a veto-proof margin
    - Eliminates waste in government, as non-performing agencies simply close shop
    - Workers in eliminated agencies given the option of working on infrastructure projects or finding private-sector jobs

That's just for starters...I'm sure there's tons of holes in it.
How about this then?...  Cut the military spending by a third, but cut Social Security in half?
2008-12-25 22:24:25
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6852|San Diego, CA, USA

Turquoise wrote:

How about this then?...  Cut the military spending by a third, but cut Social Security in half?
You sure its a good idea to cut military spending right now?  I mean there are alot of people out there who want to kill us.  Social Security should be privatized like this:

1.  Start allowing people to put a portion of their Social Security payments (like 2% of the total 15% they pay now) into U.S. Savings Bonds.
2.  These bonds, when matured, will automatically be rolled back into more bonds until you are 62 1/2.
3.  Slowly raise the percentage as the people currently on Social Security die off (this would happen over about 15 years til it totals the 15%).
4.  When you die you can transfer the asset like any other type of property (this is a big deal) - you are also not required to pull money out by a certain age.

These next 10 years will be the worst because of all the longer living baby-boomers.

Now with the people who already are in the system, calculate what they have put into the system and buy bonds in their name for 50% of their total contributions (this is going to piss off ALOT of people, but you can't do 100% because it would be too much AND couldn't pay for the current Social Security recipients).

BTW, to me Social Security is a 17 trillion dollar ponzi scheme.
2008-12-26 04:03:14
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6410|eXtreme to the maX

Campoe wrote:

I don't really see how nationalising businesses is going to result in anything other than stagnation/regression.
In the case of pensions, mortgages, throwing good money at business run by the same fuckwits makes no sense, these two are long term bets. Companies have shown how poor they are at forecasting beyond the next quarter, and rampant greed has fucked things up - people should not be making a profit out of them.

Car industry - cost of letting the big three fail is just too high.

Break them up into smaller units which can compete more radically, the cost of the bureaucracies outweigh the economies of scale.
Cancel the UAW contracts and provide state welfare instead.

Harmor wrote:

BTW, to me Social Security is a 17 trillion dollar ponzi scheme.
Basically it is, which is another reason why it shouldn't be in the hands of the private sector with profit being made out of now and nothing in the pot when I retire (if ever).

FEOS wrote:

You'd have to cut the military budget by more than a third to balance the budget...and you still wouldn't have any "savings" to spend on anything else. Zero-sum game.
At least you'd have a balanced budget.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-26 04:07:05)

Fuck Israel
2008-12-26 04:10:22
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6410|eXtreme to the maX

Tuf Catbox wrote:

great idea dill... the govt will fix it... glad you don't make any important decisions in real life for our country or yours..lol
Its the private sector which got us into this mess.
Fuck Israel
2008-12-26 06:44:56
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6715|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

You'd have to cut the military budget by more than a third to balance the budget...and you still wouldn't have any "savings" to spend on anything else. Zero-sum game.
At least you'd have a balanced budget.
You'd have to cut far more than the defense budget to have a balanced federal budget overall. Turq hit a key problem: entitlement programs. The UAW and GM/Chrysler are experiencing the private sector version of bloated entitlement programs right now.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-12-26 07:18:58
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
Alot of the Bad loans that were written aren't just because of the adjustable rate mortgage's, alot of it has to do with county property taxes. Once all the homes where inflated, the governments got wind and wanted there piece of the pie so they jacked up every ones taxes..

First I would say reassess all the houses(maybe go back 4-6 years) and give people a property tax break on them(this will save alot of people between 400-600 dollars at least in NJ). Also forgive the over sold value in equity and let people recast there mortgages, most people have mortgages about 50-75k over the home value. The bank will make that money back if the people don't go into default, and hey fuck it we saved there asses. Go after the major banks that's commit fraud, IE charge late payments when you aren't down, hit you with over draft fees when your account has the money in there etc.. Freeze those banks assets and disperse to banks that follow good lending policy's..

Fuck the Big Three, our car companies haven't been successful forever and it's because our cars are horrible. Let them go under so someone can buy them out(make sure they're American) and revamp the system..

Nationalize Heath Care and allow doctors and hospitals to turn away non citizens(fuck them they don't pay taxes they don't get the service). Also don't allow they're kids into our schools, same thing. If you don't apply for citizenship you don't get our services, if you get here and apply then you can use our services..  Also start revenue generation for our countries, by selling goods and services back to the companies.. They collect leaves and make mulch piles why doesn't the country sell that? Same thing with the recycling, why don't they sell the goods back to the companies..

Give a more forgiveness policy on laws, our Ticket, fine, and arresting system is just so out of control. When a parking ticket is 5 hours worth of work for someone who make minimum wage something is way wrong.

Legalize weed, it will create tax revenue and save us so much money on "the war against Drugs", also stop making wars against things that aren't people. I actually want to see progress on wars, to know that we're at least fighting them..
2008-12-26 08:13:27
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,060|7076|PNW

ATG wrote:

The first thing I would do is abolish the federal reserve and get us back on a gold or silver standard.
( this would require a military element to attack and destroy standing private armies of the bankers families )
The second thing I would do is nationalize certain industries such as oil and electricity.
( there would be a even split between overhead, future infrastructure and profit that would be paid into a mix of exploration and government ' profit ' )

I would have a cap on income of 25 million per year.
( if 25 million per year isn't enough, fuck you )

I would make political corruption a capitol offense. ( There would be harsh term limits and the era of career politicians would be over. )

I would erect a massive set of gallows, and I would hang anybody that protested too loudly.
When my work was finished I would set a precedent; each president, at the end of his term would commit suicide. No man would take the office unless he believed the change he was bringing was worth dying for.

 

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