I don't really give ashit either, but all for all I am willing to hold up my giant foam "Israel is number one" finger when it is time to watch the gameTurquoise wrote:
I'll put it this way. I'd shed no tears if they all just killed each other -- it would spare the rest of the world their troubles.lowing wrote:
Do you blame Israel for their posturing given all of the threats openly made by Iran and others? Israel is sick of this shit and will probably take the gloves off and take the fight to Iran that they have been begging for. Soon enough, however, they will begging for someone t opull Israel off of them.Turquoise wrote:
First things first.... The reason why a lot of evangelicals put so much emphasis on Israel is because they've decided to throw in their lot with a crazy guy named John Darby. Dispensationalism is much of the basis for Christian Zionism.
Second, while I agree that much of the world hates Israel, they've clearly shown that they want far more than just people to leave them alone. Remember the recent "practice" air strike they did with regards to Iran? They tend to be a rather aggressive country, so they really can't fall back on the defense argument.
Granted, I'm not saying I like the Palestinians or Arabs either. They've fucked plenty of things up in their own right.
The only reason we even give a shit about this region is because of oil. If they didn't have that, only the religious people would probably care. Otherwise, it would be just as interesting to us as one of the many massacres in Africa.
I can see where you're coming from, but I guess I just enjoy criticizing both sides.lowing wrote:
I don't really give ashit either, but all for all I am willing to hold up my giant foam "Israel is number one" finger when it is time to watch the gameTurquoise wrote:
I'll put it this way. I'd shed no tears if they all just killed each other -- it would spare the rest of the world their troubles.lowing wrote:
Do you blame Israel for their posturing given all of the threats openly made by Iran and others? Israel is sick of this shit and will probably take the gloves off and take the fight to Iran that they have been begging for. Soon enough, however, they will begging for someone t opull Israel off of them.
The only reason we even give a shit about this region is because of oil. If they didn't have that, only the religious people would probably care. Otherwise, it would be just as interesting to us as one of the many massacres in Africa.
So how is Israel of any relevance?Turquoise wrote:
The only reason we even give a shit about this region is because of oil.
Israel doesn't have oil, none of the countries bordering Israel have oil to speak of.
During various periods of instability in the region Israel has been more of a liability than an asset.
- The first oil crisis was precipitated by Israel
- Iranian revolution, was Israel a bundle of use?
- Gulf War 1, Israel was not used as a base, keeping Saddam's Scuds under control and preventing the war widening was a major headache
- Afghanistan, Gulf War 2, Israel was not used as a base, bogus Israeli intel and analysis was a big factor in the Iraq invasion
I'm just not seeing how supporting Israel helps the US control Arabian oil, quite the opposite.
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Why Israel?Lowing wrote:
I don't really give ashit either, but all for all I am willing to hold up my giant foam "Israel is number one" finger when it is time to watch the game
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Because peace can exist if Israel is left standing. Peace will not exist even if Israel is destroyed. Once Israel is gone that region will turn its attention even more toward the west.Dilbert_X wrote:
Why Israel?Lowing wrote:
I don't really give ashit either, but all for all I am willing to hold up my giant foam "Israel is number one" finger when it is time to watch the game
What peace exactly? Doesn't seem too peaceful now.Lowing wrote:
Because peace can exist if Israel is left standing.
The world has never been at peace, Israel existing or not isn't going to change that.Lowing wrote:
Peace will not exist even if Israel is destroyed.
'That region' never gave a crap about the West until the West started drilling oil and plonked a bunch of dispossessed Germans and Russians bang in the middle of them.Lowing wrote:
Once Israel is gone that region will turn its attention even more toward the west.
Maybe the West should just STFU and stop meddling.
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1. Nope because Israel is constantly fucked with.Dilbert_X wrote:
What peace exactly? Doesn't seem too peaceful now.Lowing wrote:
Because peace can exist if Israel is left standing.The world has never been at peace, Israel existing or not isn't going to change that.Lowing wrote:
Peace will not exist even if Israel is destroyed.'That region' never gave a crap about the West until the West started drilling oil and plonked a bunch of dispossessed Germans and Russians bang in the middle of them.Lowing wrote:
Once Israel is gone that region will turn its attention even more toward the west.
Maybe the West should just STFU and stop meddling.
2. I am talking about in that region. Israel can sustain peace with the rest of the world. The rest of the ME probably not.
3. The best thing that ever happened to the people of the ME was the discovery of oil. Everyone in that region should be living great quality of lives. It is not the wests fault that the ME govts. for the most part hoard all the money for themselves and do let its citizens in on the profits. This is the real reason for the hatred of the west and its so called meddling. They see us as living great lives, at their expense while they live in squalor.
4. The truth is the west has PAID and is paying for that oil. Turn toward the ME govts. if you want to know why the real reason their people value death over life.
There's a reason for that.Lowing wrote:
1. Nope because Israel is constantly fucked with.
And Israel constantly fucks with its neighbours also.
Israel is no better or worse than the rest of the ME in that respect.Lowing wrote:
2. I am talking about in that region. Israel can sustain peace with the rest of the world. The rest of the ME probably not.
A situation the West is very happy to continue with.Lowing wrote:
3. The best thing that ever happened to the people of the ME was the discovery of oil. Everyone in that region should be living great quality of lives. It is not the wests fault that the ME govts. for the most part hoard all the money for themselves and do let its citizens in on the profits. This is the real reason for the hatred of the west and its so called meddling. They see us as living great lives, at their expense while they live in squalor.
Saudi Arabia, about on a par with the Taleban when it comes to democracy and religious extremism, and keeping the rich rich, are our bestest buddies.
Democratic Iran are our most evil enemies.
Secular Iraq just got invaded and rebuilt.
Your logic fails.
US troops were happy to go and die for oil, 5000 of them so far.Lowing wrote:
4. The truth is the west has PAID and is paying for that oil. Turn toward the ME govts. if you want to know why the real reason their people value death over life.
Plz explain why they are so keen to die, and value death so highly over life.
What did the US govt do to brainwash them so effectively?
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-21 05:33:21)
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1. nope, Israel responds to agression with agression. If the attacks stopped Israel would stop. If Israel stopped, the attacks would continue.Dilbert_X wrote:
There's a reason for that.Lowing wrote:
1. Nope because Israel is constantly fucked with.
And Israel constantly fucks with its neighbours also.Israel is no better or worse than the rest of the ME in that respect.Lowing wrote:
2. I am talking about in that region. Israel can sustain peace with the rest of the world. The rest of the ME probably not.A situation the West is very happy to continue with.Lowing wrote:
3. The best thing that ever happened to the people of the ME was the discovery of oil. Everyone in that region should be living great quality of lives. It is not the wests fault that the ME govts. for the most part hoard all the money for themselves and do let its citizens in on the profits. This is the real reason for the hatred of the west and its so called meddling. They see us as living great lives, at their expense while they live in squalor.
Saudi Arabia, about on a par with the Taleban when it comes to democracy and religious extremism, and keeping the rich rich, are our bestest buddies.
Democratic Iran are our most evil enemies.
Secular Iraq just got invaded and rebuilt.
Your logic fails.US troops were happy to go and die for oil, 5000 of them so far.Lowing wrote:
4. The truth is the west has PAID and is paying for that oil. Turn toward the ME govts. if you want to know why the real reason their people value death over life.
Plz explain why they are so keen to die, and value death so highly over life.
What did the US govt do to brainwash them so effectively?
2. Actually no, you are not denying my logic. You say the west is happy with the situation, what exactly are they supposed to do about it when you insist we stop meddling. Ok so we won't meddle. Happy?
3. US troops are not happy to die for oil or anything else. Stop with your rediculous bullshit snotty ass opinions that you know are not true.
They keep things stirred up. The more turmoil there is in the Middle East, the higher the price of oil becomes. Ultimately, it's about profit.Dilbert_X wrote:
So how is Israel of any relevance?Turquoise wrote:
The only reason we even give a shit about this region is because of oil.
Israel doesn't have oil, none of the countries bordering Israel have oil to speak of.
During various periods of instability in the region Israel has been more of a liability than an asset.
- The first oil crisis was precipitated by Israel
- Iranian revolution, was Israel a bundle of use?
- Gulf War 1, Israel was not used as a base, keeping Saddam's Scuds under control and preventing the war widening was a major headache
- Afghanistan, Gulf War 2, Israel was not used as a base, bogus Israeli intel and analysis was a big factor in the Iraq invasion
I'm just not seeing how supporting Israel helps the US control Arabian oil, quite the opposite.
So Cheney was right, the objective is to keep the oil price high?Turquoise wrote:
They keep things stirred up. The more turmoil there is in the Middle East, the higher the price of oil becomes. Ultimately, it's about profit.
If that's the case it would explain US backing for Israel.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-21 23:27:30)
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Maybe the Arabs are just responding to aggression with aggression.Lowing wrote:
1. nope, Israel responds to agression with agression. If the attacks stopped Israel would stop. If Israel stopped, the attacks would continue.
If the attacks stopped Israel would continue its expansionist settlement building, more so than now.
If the West weren't happy they wouldn't be siding with the most extremist govt in the region, Saudi Arabia.Lowing wrote:
2. Actually no, you are not denying my logic. You say the west is happy with the situation, what exactly are they supposed to do about it when you insist we stop meddling. Ok so we won't meddle. Happy?
Its no more ridiculous than your statement.Lowing wrote:
3. US troops are not happy to die for oil or anything else. Stop with your rediculous bullshit snotty ass opinions that you know are not true.
Both sides are happy to die for their objective, on the US side its oil profits and protecting Israel, on the Arab side its defending their country and spreading Islam.
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1. Well lets see, history disagrees with you, since the Jews have been ass raped by everyone long before there was an Israel to bitch about. It is not about Israel. It is about the Jews. Israel is just the latest excuse.Dilbert_X wrote:
Maybe the Arabs are just responding to aggression with aggression.Lowing wrote:
1. nope, Israel responds to agression with agression. If the attacks stopped Israel would stop. If Israel stopped, the attacks would continue.
If the attacks stopped Israel would continue its expansionist settlement building, more so than now.If the West weren't happy they wouldn't be siding with the most extremist govt in the region, Saudi Arabia.Lowing wrote:
2. Actually no, you are not denying my logic. You say the west is happy with the situation, what exactly are they supposed to do about it when you insist we stop meddling. Ok so we won't meddle. Happy?Its no more ridiculous than your statement.Lowing wrote:
3. US troops are not happy to die for oil or anything else. Stop with your rediculous bullshit snotty ass opinions that you know are not true.
Both sides are happy to die for their objective, on the US side its oil profits and protecting Israel, on the Arab side its defending their country and spreading Islam.
2. The west needs and buys oil. It does not steal it. You do not want us meddling, yet you bitch that we do not meddle?
3. Not exactly. US troops dp npt willingly strap on bombs to kill themselves in hopes of taking someone with them. It is a rediculous comparison. US troops die as a consequence, not as an objective.
Last edited by lowing (2008-12-22 02:43:56)
Everyone has been ass-raped by everyone else, the Jews just whine a lot more, and use their persecution to their advantage.Lowing wrote:
1. Well lets see, history disagrees with you, since the Jews have been ass raped by everyone long before there was an Israel to bitch about. It is not about Israel. It is about the Jews. Israel is just the latest excuse.
I'm not griping about anything, you're the one saying the reason for discontent in the ME is oil wealth going to a chosen few when it it the West which actively supports the status quo by backing the rulers of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait while hammering secular Iraq and a relatively progressive country like Iran.Lowing wrote:
2. The west needs and buys oil. It does not steal it. You do not want us meddling, yet you bitch that we do not meddle?
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Perhaps that boils down to the fact that the Jews have been hated and attacked more times than any other people?Dilbert_X wrote:
Everyone has been ass-raped by everyone else, the Jews just whine a lot more, and use their persecution to their advantage.Lowing wrote:
1. Well lets see, history disagrees with you, since the Jews have been ass raped by everyone long before there was an Israel to bitch about. It is not about Israel. It is about the Jews. Israel is just the latest excuse.
1. Well if we are gunna go there, I will say that the land has changed hands just like every other piece of land and that Palestine just whines more than anyone else. Does that work for you?Dilbert_X wrote:
Everyone has been ass-raped by everyone else, the Jews just whine a lot more, and use their persecution to their advantage.Lowing wrote:
1. Well lets see, history disagrees with you, since the Jews have been ass raped by everyone long before there was an Israel to bitch about. It is not about Israel. It is about the Jews. Israel is just the latest excuse.I'm not griping about anything, you're the one saying the reason for discontent in the ME is oil wealth going to a chosen few when it it the West which actively supports the status quo by backing the rulers of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait while hammering secular Iraq and a relatively progressive country like Iran.Lowing wrote:
2. The west needs and buys oil. It does not steal it. You do not want us meddling, yet you bitch that we do not meddle?
2. No I am saying the west buys oil period, it isn't telling the rest of the ME how to treat its people, because ya know after all the bitching about Iraq, we are not supposed to meddle. YOu should support that stance based on your anti-meddling pulpit pounding. OR does your morality regarding such things change to suit your opinions as yo see fit?
3. No comment from you?? Did I win point 3?
Last edited by lowing (2008-12-22 12:32:23)
So why pick the Israeli side?Lowing wrote:
1. Well if we are gunna go there, I will say that the land has changed hands just like every other piece of land and that Palestine just whines more than anyone else. Does that work for you?
The West does tell the ME how to treat its people, but only selectivelyLowing wrote:
2. No I am saying the west buys oil period, it isn't telling the rest of the ME how to treat its people, because ya know after all the bitching about Iraq, we are not supposed to meddle.
Hence we have the West siding with the most totalitarian and exclusive country in the region, whose nationals made up the bulk of the 9/11 hijackers, who practise extreme sharia law, but are 'friendly' because Bush's family is friendly with their Royal family.
OTOH we have the US invading two other countries and threatening a third, none of which had anything to do with 9/11, apparently as some form of liberation for their peoples.
No. Jihadists don't have dying as their primary objective any more than US troops do.Lowing wrote:
3. No comment from you?? Did I win point 3?
Jihadists get 72 virgins, US troops get a shiny headstone and their family paid off, both are prepared to die for no really compelling reason.
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Wat?Dilbert_X wrote:
No. Jihadists don't have dying as their primary objective any more than US troops do.
Jihadists get 72 virgins, US troops get a shiny headstone and their family paid off, both are prepared to die for no really compelling reason.
Jihadists strapping a few blocks of Semtex to their body don't have the intention of dying? O-K
The sheer fact that US and coalition troops fight for as long as they can while the Jihadists attempt to detonate themselves first chance they get makes it pretty clear that this statement was concocted under the influence.
Its not their primary intention, its secondary to killing infidels.MOAB wrote:
Jihadists strapping a few blocks of Semtex to their body don't have the intention of dying? O-K
If it were their primary intention they would just blow themselves up at home.
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Wrong, sort of.Dilbert_X wrote:
Its not their primary intention, its secondary to killing infidels.MOAB wrote:
Jihadists strapping a few blocks of Semtex to their body don't have the intention of dying? O-K
If it were their primary intention they would just blow themselves up at home.
Their mission is to achieve martyrdom, which means sacrificing body and soul to kill infidels.
Malloy must go
But sometimes they're not killing infidels are they? Market place bombings on Iraqis?Dilbert_X wrote:
Its not their primary intention, its secondary to killing infidels.MOAB wrote:
Jihadists strapping a few blocks of Semtex to their body don't have the intention of dying? O-K
If it were their primary intention they would just blow themselves up at home.
1. already explained it. I view them as defenders.Dilbert_X wrote:
So why pick the Israeli side?Lowing wrote:
1. Well if we are gunna go there, I will say that the land has changed hands just like every other piece of land and that Palestine just whines more than anyone else. Does that work for you?The West does tell the ME how to treat its people, but only selectivelyLowing wrote:
2. No I am saying the west buys oil period, it isn't telling the rest of the ME how to treat its people, because ya know after all the bitching about Iraq, we are not supposed to meddle.
Hence we have the West siding with the most totalitarian and exclusive country in the region, whose nationals made up the bulk of the 9/11 hijackers, who practise extreme sharia law, but are 'friendly' because Bush's family is friendly with their Royal family.
OTOH we have the US invading two other countries and threatening a third, none of which had anything to do with 9/11, apparently as some form of liberation for their peoples.No. Jihadists don't have dying as their primary objective any more than US troops do.Lowing wrote:
3. No comment from you?? Did I win point 3?
Jihadists get 72 virgins, US troops get a shiny headstone and their family paid off, both are prepared to die for no really compelling reason.
2. The war in Iraq was not continued because of 911. It was continued because Iraq broke the resolution that brought the cease fire in the '91.
3. Your statement so so fulla shit I know you do not even believe it, so I will not entertain it.
Defending something you stole is barely defending.Lowing wrote:
1. already explained it. I view them as defenders.
Presumably you view the Nazis defence of occupied France to have been a worthy and righteous cause.
They won it fair and square by superior military action, nothing more to discuss.
To say the Iraq war was 'continued' is absurd.Lowing wrote:
2. The war in Iraq was not continued because of 911. It was continued because Iraq broke the resolution that brought the cease fire in the '91.
If 9/11 had not happened the Iraq invasion would not have happened. Up to then both Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice were 100% certain Iraq had no WMD and weren't working to get them.
No UN resolution was broken, if the US believed it had been it should have gone to the UN for a decision.
I've noticed you guys resort to insults when you've lost the argument.Lowing wrote:
3. Your statement so so fulla shit I know you do not even believe it, so I will not entertain it.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-28 15:20:50)
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1. They didn't steal anything it was given to themDilbert_X wrote:
Defending something you stole is barely defending.Lowing wrote:
1. already explained it. I view them as defenders.
Presumably you view the Nazis defence of occupied France to have been a worthy and righteous cause.
They won it fair and square by superior military action, nothing more to discuss.To say the Iraq war was 'continued' is absurd.Lowing wrote:
2. The war in Iraq was not continued because of 911. It was continued because Iraq broke the resolution that brought the cease fire in the '91.
If 9/11 had not happened the Iraq invasion would not have happened. Up to then both Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice were 100% certain Iraq had no WMD and weren't working to get them.
No UN resolution was broken, if the US believed it had been it should have gone to the UN for a decision.I've noticed you guys resort to insults when you've lost the argument.Lowing wrote:
3. Your statement so so fulla shit I know you do not even believe it, so I will not entertain it.
2. Ya might wanna go back and read your history. Iraq spent 10 years breaking resolutions that they agreed to in order to bring a cease fire.
3. Sorry, you telling me that our service members do not care if they live or die is not an argument I will entertain. Yeah, it is that absurd. Like I said, our troops die as a consequence not as an objective. Admit it or not, it does not matter, you did not win this point.
Not by the people who own it, and subject to the rights of the people who owned it not being infringed.Lowing wrote:
1. They didn't steal anything it was given to them
They were allowed a homeland, not an apartheid state, same as Lapland is the homeland of Santa and his happy elves, but the Lapps still own it and are allowed to live there.
Its up to the UN to determine that.Lowing wrote:
2. Ya might wanna go back and read your history. Iraq spent 10 years breaking resolutions that they agreed to in order to bring a cease fire.
Not what I said, I said bith sides are prepared to die, for both sides killing the enemy is the objective.Lowing wrote:
3. Sorry, you telling me that our service members do not care if they live or die is not an argument I will entertain. Yeah, it is that absurd. Like I said, our troops die as a consequence not as an objective. Admit it or not, it does not matter, you did not win this point.
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