Rick Warren.
Warren is a very tricky guy. James Dobson could learn a few things from him.
But yes, Warren and Dobson embody exactly what I meant. So does the Pope. So does the Ayatollah. Even the Dalai Lama fits this description, but at least he's more of a pacifist kind of guy.
So when you really look at religion as an institution, it's hard to trust it. There is so much bullshit surrounding the organization of religion that I find it entirely nauseating.
If I ever did choose to be Christian, I'd be like the original Christians -- Gnostic.
But yes, Warren and Dobson embody exactly what I meant. So does the Pope. So does the Ayatollah. Even the Dalai Lama fits this description, but at least he's more of a pacifist kind of guy.
So when you really look at religion as an institution, it's hard to trust it. There is so much bullshit surrounding the organization of religion that I find it entirely nauseating.
If I ever did choose to be Christian, I'd be like the original Christians -- Gnostic.
Is that fear?ATG wrote:
To me, when the whole thing is viewed, it is bollocks, but...what's the alternative?
" there are no atheist in foxholes..."Reciprocity wrote:
Is that fear?ATG wrote:
To me, when the whole thing is viewed, it is bollocks, but...what's the alternative?
I believe that all men, no matter what they say, will beg god for forgiveness when they know they are dying.
what if you are shot and die instantly?ATG wrote:
" there are no atheist in foxholes..."Reciprocity wrote:
Is that fear?ATG wrote:
To me, when the whole thing is viewed, it is bollocks, but...what's the alternative?
I believe that all men, no matter what they say, will beg god for forgiveness when they know they are dying.
What if someone were rasied to have never known of this God?ATG wrote:
" there are no atheist in foxholes..."Reciprocity wrote:
Is that fear?ATG wrote:
To me, when the whole thing is viewed, it is bollocks, but...what's the alternative?
I believe that all men, no matter what they say, will beg god for forgiveness when they know they are dying.
Would they beg for something that they have never known?
There are no athiests in suburbia...?ATG wrote:
" there are no atheist in foxholes..."Reciprocity wrote:
Is that fear?ATG wrote:
To me, when the whole thing is viewed, it is bollocks, but...what's the alternative?
I believe that all men, no matter what they say, will beg god for forgiveness when they know they are dying.
That's really what religion comes down to. It's a human construct.Icleos wrote:
What if someone were rasied to have never known of this God?ATG wrote:
" there are no atheist in foxholes..."Reciprocity wrote:
Is that fear?
I believe that all men, no matter what they say, will beg god for forgiveness when they know they are dying.
Would they beg for something that they have never known?
It's feasible to assume that a person never exposed to religion would seek the guidance of a higher being or force, but the details of this being are entirely created by human imagination.
Quite simply, if there is a god, we have no way of knowing what this being is really like or what it wants.
Not necessarily.ATG wrote:
" there are no atheist in foxholes..."Reciprocity wrote:
Is that fear?ATG wrote:
To me, when the whole thing is viewed, it is bollocks, but...what's the alternative?
I believe that all men, no matter what they say, will beg god for forgiveness when they know they are dying.
On two occasions where I was sure I was dead in the next 10 seconds, I wasn't praying to god.
The first, I was busy calling in the other guy's grid coordinates.
The second, I was busy trying to find a way out for as many of us as I could.
The third, I was grasping at that 0.1% chance of doing something physically improbable to get through the situation.
"There ARE Atheists in foxholes. We're not interested in meeting your god, and we're sure as hell not interested in meeting the other guy's god. So, if you don't mind, stop praying and start doing something that has a non-zero chance of getting us the hell out of here!"
Last edited by rdx-fx (2008-12-20 13:34:26)
As an atheist in a western country? Think its a tad unlikely never to hear about it. If your talking about the sort of cliche south american tribe idea then, Job, from the Old Testament, was saved eventhough he didnt know who jesus is/was. Since, well obviously he couldnt he was born before him.Icleos wrote:
What if someone were rasied to have never known of this God?
(assuming, any of this is true)
Penn's understanding of why religious people tell others about their faith is entirely correct. We do so out of good will toward our fellow man.
all of elementary, middle, and high school was in the catholic institutions. and i have read the bible, which what (ironically) turned me into an atheist. saying 99% have never read the bible is BS in itself. The bible is nothing more than a good fictional book, ppl took too far. if u have actually read it, is it far fetched to believe the author(s) were high on opium and drunk off wine whilst writing it?ATG wrote:
I'd encourage you guys to check this out.usmarine wrote:
so its a crutch for weak minded people?Turquoise wrote:
For the most part, finding a way to get meaning out of life and to make death easier to accept.
Personally, I find life has more meaning believing this is the only one you get.
I'm not saying that I have turned into a jesus freak, but I am reviewing the evidence.
Funny that 99% percent of self proclaimed atheists I have spoken with haven't ever read the bible.
Kinds makes them ignorant on a foundational level.
lolATG wrote:
I believe that all men, no matter what they say, will beg god for forgiveness when they know they are dying.
For me to do something like that would be to deny the core of my very being. I'll be hoping medical science comes to my aid. Haven't seen much evidence of God administering chemotherapy in response to prayers...
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-20 16:09:40)
Catholic run primary and secondary education. Saying the Our Father and Hail Mary every morning before class started. Over a decade of it being drummed into me.ATG wrote:
Funny that 99% percent of self proclaimed atheists I have spoken with haven't ever read the bible.
I've read and studied the Bible on a literary basis, as well as looking at the wider impact and influence it has had on western culture and the literary canon. I still think it's bullshit; it's a moral instruction book and not a basis for spirituality or superstitious religious whackery. I firmly declare myself an Atheist (an Agnostic on days when I'm feeling slightly thoughtful, or after reading Huxley ) and see the moral benefits of the Bible but completely disregard the preachy dogmatic stuff. I wouldn't consider myself ignorant, but I do definitely call myself a realist. I think a lot of atheists have been raised in highly-religious families and grow to mature and reject the "Praise our Lord!" rubbish; only the embarassing figure-heads of atheism such as Dawkins and Hitchens consider it a 'movement', most others including myself consider it an umbrella term for anything that refutes or doesn't care for religion and what it offers to humanity.ATG wrote:
I'd encourage you guys to check this out.usmarine wrote:
so its a crutch for weak minded people?Turquoise wrote:
For the most part, finding a way to get meaning out of life and to make death easier to accept.
Personally, I find life has more meaning believing this is the only one you get.
I'm not saying that I have turned into a jesus freak, but I am reviewing the evidence.
Funny that 99% percent of self proclaimed atheists I have spoken with haven't ever read the bible.
Kinds makes them ignorant on a foundational level.
Organized religion and the preachy-pushing forms of organisation are a black mark on the inventions of humanity. If a deity or God did really exist we wouldn't need a crooked bunch of corrupt money-grabbing bishops and clergymen siphoning off cash in return for our 'Forgiveness' and other such nonsense. If a real God looked down over his people, I'm sure he would want us to have a direct communication and relationship with him, of the spiritual kind of course.
By the way the point mentioned above about atheists being right about the "after-life" is a bit iffy, 'afterlife' isn't a concept discussed or considered by atheists. There isn't one. We as organisms die and that's that. Agnostics and people with some sense of spirituality are probably the people sitting on the fence about the 'Life after death' question, atheists pretty much seat their reasoning in rationality and the explainable.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Not really, most will cry and beg not to die, maybe call for their mothers a few hundred times, etc.ATG wrote:
" there are no atheist in foxholes..."Reciprocity wrote:
Is that fear?ATG wrote:
To me, when the whole thing is viewed, it is bollocks, but...what's the alternative?
I believe that all men, no matter what they say, will beg god for forgiveness when they know they are dying.
My very beliefs are true to me. I don't tell people there's no God for the attention, I do it because it's what I believe. Sigh...
I choose not to live my life in fear. Religious people do. And if that fear is what keeps them from doing horrible things? Fine. Just keep your fear to yourself. Project that fear onto you own children, so they can live their lives in terror. You need your constructed god, I need common sense.
mikkel wrote:
As for the talk about preaching, I could follow that if we didn't live in a world where everybody who want to care about religion already know where they stand, but we do, and everyone knows this. Preaching to people who've already decided against what you have to say is not a kind act, or a showing of friendly nature. It's obnoxious. Nothing else.
You may be surprised how misinformed people are about religion. Those with whom I discuss my faith have many misconceptions which are based heresay and their own assumptions. Though you may find it obnoxious when a person shares their faith, that does not mean the person sharing their faith is unkind or unfriendly. Reading about Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, etc on the internet is quite different from actually discussion said belief system with a follower.mikkel wrote:
Thinking that dozens of people haven't also made respectful attempts before him is naive. We live in a world of global communication that has made sure that EVERYONE knows what ANYONE believes. The days of going door to door are over.
For that to be true, one must assume that those who have chosen faith have not made their decision based on thoughtful consideration. Though you are free to disagree with their conclusion, I do not believe that you can defend the assertion that a presence or absence of faith makes a person more gullible. It goes without saying that trusting people or human institutions inevitably results in disappointment. Skepticism is not a mindset reserved for agnostics or atheists. In fact, a healthy skepticism will only strengthen one’s faith because they will have tested their beliefs.Turquoise wrote:
Having faith actually makes you more gullible in most respects. It's a lack of faith and a strong sense of skepticism that protects you far better in this world than any faith. The more you trust people or human institutions like religion, the more you will be taken advantage of and will be disappointed.
Christianity isn’t about being good or bad. It’s about accepting salvation, which cannot be earned by any human being.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Or Christians thinking if they're good they will go to heaven and if they bad they'll go to hell.
Humans use a large variety of means to obtain wealth, so it should not be a surprise to us that some use religion to do so. Does that automatically invalidate the belief system?Uzique wrote:
Organized religion and the preachy-pushing forms of organisation are a black mark on the inventions of humanity. If a deity or God did really exist we wouldn't need a crooked bunch of corrupt money-grabbing bishops and clergymen siphoning off cash in return for our 'Forgiveness' and other such nonsense.
Which is precisely what Christianity asserts.Uzique wrote:
If a real God looked down over his people, I'm sure he would want us to have a direct communication and relationship with him, of the spiritual kind of course.
Not in all versions.Stingray24 wrote:
Which is precisely what Christianity asserts.
I'm also surprised at how misinformed people are about many other general topics, but I don't go around schooling them, or telling them how they should view things, unless they ask for it. Religion is no different. Yes, I find it obnoxious when people preach religion to me, and yes, people preaching religion know that the general consensus is that it's obnoxious. They do it anyway, however. If I called your and your family nasty things in good, kind faith, it'd still be obnoxious, so I don't get where you're going with your argument.Stingray24 wrote:
mikkel wrote:
As for the talk about preaching, I could follow that if we didn't live in a world where everybody who want to care about religion already know where they stand, but we do, and everyone knows this. Preaching to people who've already decided against what you have to say is not a kind act, or a showing of friendly nature. It's obnoxious. Nothing else.You may be surprised how misinformed people are about religion. Those with whom I discuss my faith have many misconceptions which are based heresay and their own assumptions. Though you may find it obnoxious when a person shares their faith, that does not mean the person sharing their faith is unkind or unfriendly. Reading about Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, etc on the internet is quite different from actually discussion said belief system with a follower.mikkel wrote:
Thinking that dozens of people haven't also made respectful attempts before him is naive. We live in a world of global communication that has made sure that EVERYONE knows what ANYONE believes. The days of going door to door are over.
What about the episcopal structures in certain Churches? The need for a Pope in Catholicism? I think most forms of modern-day practiced Christianity are far from direct communication and relationship with God, if your claim is true then America and Europe wouldn't be full of churches and cathedrals with their weekly congregations. A person with true spirituality and a God wanting belief without arrogant self-aggrandizing church reverence wouldn't want any of the material constructs we have formed in the 'Church' as it exists today.Reciprocity wrote:
Not in all versions.Stingray24 wrote:
Which is precisely what Christianity asserts.
Does the profiteering of religion invalidate it? Well yes, quite frankly. If some guy demands I have faith and pure devout piety, I don't think it's right he is in the pursuit of material wealth and wants money in exchange for such a service. It's related to my problem with organized religion as a whole, I don't think being a clergyman should be a paid profession. You're crossing the spiritual and the material and thus expose yourself to all the taints, sins and nasty temptations of the world!
I personally have many arguments, issues and disagreements with organised religion and the concept of religion/group worship in general. Hence I use the blanket term agnostic/atheist- not because I'm on some scientific crusade against irrationality and blind faith, but simply because I just don't 'get' it. I've read the scripture, I've taken on the moral code and understood the parables, but I don't quite agree with the 'You were born into a contractual debt to a guy that died for you two thousand years ago and must spend the rest of your life worshipping his dad unreservedly even though he has done nothing for you' part. Personal preference. It would be self-contradicting if I was an 'active' atheist and harassed religious folk in the same way that the preachy converting sects of Christianity/Islam do. Each to their own I suppose, I guess to that extent I 'respect' other beliefs, even if in my own mind I think they're pursuing something utterly pointless and futile. Calling non-religious ignorant because they don't 'get' religion or The Bible is pretty hilarious considering the amount of blind ignorance you've got to turn towards modern science and humanity in order to accept the archaic codes and facts laid down in scripture.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
The presumption that everyone has attempted to share the same message is not only naive it's arrogant. My point, which seems to be largely overlooked in this thread, is how you present your beliefs. This has little to do with whether you accept them or not. Religion, or lack thereof, is something people hold at "the core of their very being" (thanks Cam). The disrespect by both the religious and nontypes cuts to the very center of each of us. "Thanks but no thanks" has been replaced with an out of control level of resentment and disdain. That animosity has only served to separate us and spread intolerance.mikkel wrote:
I didn't miss the point at all. It's pretty apparent from my post. Going with his analogy, everyone already -knows- that he believes that they'll be hit by a truck, and the people who don't share his opinions aren't going to be swayed by him or the millions of other people like him regurgitating it. Thinking that dozens of people haven't also made respectful attempts before him is naive. We live in a world of global communication that has made sure that EVERYONE knows what ANYONE believes. The days of going door to door are over.Kmarion wrote:
Says the guy who got hit by the truck..lol. You missed his point. If you truly believe it how can you not at least make a respectful attempt?mikkel wrote:
It's obnoxious. Nothing else.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
atheism =/= agnostisicm
fyi
Faith and religion are not the same... religion is a faith based institution. When a government cannot control a society... religion does the rest. In the name of order.
But your personal faith has nothing to do with it. Don't tell me someone that what they believe is wrong and hopefully no one will do it to you.
fyi
Faith and religion are not the same... religion is a faith based institution. When a government cannot control a society... religion does the rest. In the name of order.
But your personal faith has nothing to do with it. Don't tell me someone that what they believe is wrong and hopefully no one will do it to you.
Lot of it, is to do with the likes of hitchens and dawkins (I hate that bastard). 9/11 plays a big part, and, also, funnily enough, youtube. If you look at the most subscribed, highly viewed youtubers, a lot of them are atheists. Pad condel, thunderf00t and theamazingatheist etc. There all in the tens of thousands of subscribers, and collectivly getting millions of viewsUzique wrote:
Religion is bullshit but the new-fangled Atheist 'vanguard' are just as abortion-worthy. Fuck 'em.
Atheism has existed forever, I don't get why people debate things like this now. Modern day Americans / Brits seem to like creating controversy out of their 'Zomg controversial "new" belief' aka the atheist faith that Romanticist poets had hundreds of years ago. GG.
They seem to really go after (understandably) the creationist, fundies. Unfortunetly for the christians (atleast the moderates), those offering rebuttles tend to be fundies themselfs and as such, it fufils the sterotype of:
''PRAISE THA LORD JEZUS, YOU COMUNIST FAGS ARE GONNA BHURN IN HELL'' etc
One of the top rated videos in the world on there is a creationist apologising about false DMCA claims.
I believe though much of it is the fault of christians who do not seem to posses much more than a passing knowledge of there own theology. Many atheists will present a bible verse and the chrisitan has no idea what context it was said, let alone if it was in the OT or NT. Or not even if the quotation is accurate.
There are some, descent apologetics out there. As someone who was catholic, I really lost my faith and couldnt really find anything, or anyone to back my faith so I left it. Now, it sort of depends what day of the week it is on whether or not I believe in God.
It is somewhat cliche to claim, well atheists dont understand it, or, are taking stuff out of context. I had one guy who assumed I was a christian giving me stuff about, yeah well why would an all powerful God need to rest on the seventh day.
Simple fact of the matter is he didnt:
Shabath, translated rest doesnt really mean he needs to rest because of being tired. The majority of the translations say stopping, or ceasing, rather than being tired.
Theres a lot more, but thats an example of the sort of textual analysis, and, play, you need to alot for the words.
Ofcourse, you wont hear a fundy say that. The minute they accept that some of the words maybe off, the whole resurection thing is called into question and thats a bit of a nono.
Martyn
Christianity, by nature, wants to infect everything. That's where my disrespect and animosity comes from.