Pages: 1

 

2008-12-17 10:13:34
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
Seeing how we've been hitting some hard times in this world it really got me to thinking. Our modern day ways of doing things need to start advance with the times. Technology is one of the biggest things that is hurting our economies and job market.

Just 5 years ago before EZpass they had 8 people working at toll booths, now with EZpass you're lucky if they have 3 people collecting money at any given time. So that's more then a 50% cut of workers on it, now you can argue that now those old toll collectors will be able to get a job at EZpass but they're not going to need as many people to work the phones.

So what I'm thinking is with the advancement of technology to a point where we're shrinking down the work force, what is the future of our Economic future. Obviously Capitalism can't work if we don't have enough of a work force spending money and it literally shrinking down our need for a population. No need for a huge workforce, then people won't be purchasing the goods, so there won't be needs for the goods being made..


What do you think the future of our economic/political structures in the future?
2008-12-17 10:23:08
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6751|Chicago, IL
The increasing ability of computers and robots is steadily eliminating the need for physical labor and human presence, and increasing the need for engineers, programmers, and maintenance crews.

It's not that we have less jobs, but that the skill sets require years of higher education and training.

As someone going into the engineering field, I can tell you that companies are desperate for quality employees, there's certainly no shortage of jobs for me.
2008-12-17 10:26:16
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
Yeah but it does decrease the jobs.. A machine can do what it use to take ten people to do, now one person can service 10 machines.. That's elimination 90 jobs right there.
2008-12-17 10:26:37
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7070|Cambridge (UK)
Read Future Shock - Alvin Toffler.

Not an easy book to sum up in a short forum post.

Basically, it's about the thread subject - the effect of technological advance on economics and society in general.

I personally think anyone that is in a policy-making position should be FORCED to read it.

Get a copy - for what is essentially a sociology book, it's not at all dry and I couldn't put it down once I'd started reading it.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-12-17 10:42:06)

2008-12-17 10:28:41
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6751|Chicago, IL

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Yeah but it does decrease the jobs.. A machine can do what it use to take ten people to do, now one person can service 10 machines.. That's elimination 90 jobs right there.
electronics design
mechanics
programming/optimization
repair/service
process design
research and development

the jobs are still there, they're just a bit harder than tightening bolts.  It takes an army of people to bring a robot from conception to function.
2008-12-17 10:38:10
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
So then now we have an other problem with our economic structure. Our economy is based on the spending of people who are 18-25(they generally don't have kids and they buy more goods), now if the majority of these people can't get a decent job out of High School(Construction, labor, etc..) they're spending/buying power will be cut(we all know college kids don't have money). Then when they get out of college, there spending power will still be cut because they have to pay back loans for the school.

You build a house from the bottom up and the top is only as strong as the bottom..
2008-12-17 10:44:15
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
Still changing the structure of our economy.. If labor jobs are removed by robots/advancement in technology shouldn't we start training a work force that can handle the more technical jobs at a younger age?
2008-12-17 10:45:51
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6925|London, England

S.Lythberg wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Yeah but it does decrease the jobs.. A machine can do what it use to take ten people to do, now one person can service 10 machines.. That's elimination 90 jobs right there.
electronics design
mechanics
programming/optimization
repair/service
process design
research and development

the jobs are still there, they're just a bit harder than tightening bolts.  It takes an army of people to bring a robot from conception to function.
He still has a point, those jobs, again, are still at the end of the day in much less quantity than the jobs robots do. The maths just doesn't add up, redundancy because of technology is a very real thing. Good thing that generally speaking, Technology heavy countries also have declining birth rates
2008-12-17 10:46:06
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6751|Chicago, IL

cpt.fass1 wrote:

So then now we have an other problem with our economic structure. Our economy is based on the spending of people who are 18-25(they generally don't have kids and they buy more goods), now if the majority of these people can't get a decent job out of High School(Construction, labor, etc..) they're spending/buying power will be cut(we all know college kids don't have money). Then when they get out of college, there spending power will still be cut because they have to pay back loans for the school.

You build a house from the bottom up and the top is only as strong as the bottom..
The college cost is certainly a problem (I pay $11,000 a semester!), but remember that people are living longer and working longer than ever before.  We don't enter the work force until we're 24, but we work until we're 70.  And as with all economic shifts, there will be people who are edges out because they cant or don't want to adapt.  Hunters were killed off by agriculture, farmers were killed off by factories, and now factories are being killed off by computers.
2008-12-17 10:53:57
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
Agree'd but it's going to force an economic change, being able to take care of the bulk of a population is very important. In the U.S. if jobs for people who aren't collage educated, don't get created, what do you think is going to happen?

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, and we're dependant on the majority of the people being able to make a liveable wage.. The internet is telling me that only 29% of American's are college educated.. That leaves 71% of people left to starve?

http://www.theolympian.com/columnists/s … 7366.html.
2008-12-17 11:06:33
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6751|Chicago, IL

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Agree'd but it's going to force an economic change, being able to take care of the bulk of a population is very important. In the U.S. if jobs for people who aren't collage educated, don't get created, what do you think is going to happen?

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, and we're dependant on the majority of the people being able to make a liveable wage.. The internet is telling me that only 29% of American's are college educated.. That leaves 71% of people left to starve?

http://www.theolympian.com/columnists/s … 7366.html.
Well, it comes down to the issue that nobody wants to go over, and that's over population.  There are far too many people in the world, given the resources we have at our disposal.  A birth rate far greater than the death rate will quickly destroy a developed country for the reasons you've stated above.  European nations and Japan are all experiencing stagnant or negative population growth (excluding mass immigration from the middle east, that's a whole other problem) and that keeps the level of unemployable people down to a minimum.

And as for the people who are too unskilled/uneducated to make it in the modern world, I think Charles Darwin put it best a century ago.  We as a species are not exempt from survival of the fittest, we just experience it in another sense.  Every major innovation in human history has had terrible consequences for those it replaced, but was overwhelmingly positive for the species as a whole.  It's not always a pretty sight, but it's up to you and me to make sure we're at the forefront, and not among those left behind.

*engage flamesuit*
2008-12-17 11:14:31
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
I have no problem with the Higher Education of people.. But when the workers get restless what do you think is going to happen? It's going to be survival of the fittest and the working class who have been out there busting there ass and in shape is going to be alot more fit then I who sits at a desk all day..

If it comes to a survival of the fittest it's not going to be the smartest that survives.. We have the resources to handle the population that we have right now. What I'm saying, is that right now the unskilled/uneducated are joining the military so they can live. So when they're military service is over and they can't get unskilled labor, we're going to have alot of Trained killers looking for money.

It's an advancement of the way things are done. Right now the bottom dropped out and it effects everyone, from the bottom up. Even though you have a surpluss of jobs in your field the current situation is effecting your pocket as well.
2008-12-17 11:20:39
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6751|Chicago, IL

cpt.fass1 wrote:

I have no problem with the Higher Education of people.. But when the workers get restless what do you think is going to happen? It's going to be survival of the fittest and the working class who have been out there busting there ass and in shape is going to be alot more fit then I who sits at a desk all day..

If it comes to a survival of the fittest it's not going to be the smartest that survives.. We have the resources to handle the population that we have right now. What I'm saying, is that right now the unskilled/uneducated are joining the military so they can live. So when they're military service is over and they can't get unskilled labor, we're going to have alot of Trained killers looking for money.

It's an advancement of the way things are done. Right now the bottom dropped out and it effects everyone, from the bottom up. Even though you have a surpluss of jobs in your field the current situation is effecting your pocket as well.
The really physical labor such as construction will always be in demand.  Its factory workers who make a living putting logos on cars who will be out of jobs in coming years, and they are not numerous enough or organized enough to pose a threat, you're exaggerating the problem I think.  It's a gradual phasing out, not a sudden jump.
2008-12-17 11:40:19
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
Not really it's closer then  you think.. They're creating those Exoskeleton suits, if the cost of them drop so Construction companies can purchase them that would damage that.. I'm not even exaggerating the problem, I'm stating that our current political/economic structure needs change and advancement to move us into the future.

Not only that but if our work force makes a shift toward advancing technology and more people get the tools to move it forward. Think about what we can accomplish? If you didn't have to worry about where your food/shelter/welfare was coming from and you could use all your mental power on your gifts. Right now we do that but only for illegals. oh and there's a school in newark nj where they take people with high IQ's and give them the resources to create things and take care of them in every way.
2008-12-17 11:49:18
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6751|Chicago, IL

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Not really it's closer then  you think.. They're creating those Exoskeleton suits, if the cost of them drop so Construction companies can purchase them that would damage that.. I'm not even exaggerating the problem, I'm stating that our current political/economic structure needs change and advancement to move us into the future.

Not only that but if our work force makes a shift toward advancing technology and more people get the tools to move it forward. Think about what we can accomplish? If you didn't have to worry about where your food/shelter/welfare was coming from and you could use all your mental power on your gifts. Right now we do that but only for illegals. oh and there's a school in newark nj where they take people with high IQ's and give them the resources to create things and take care of them in every way.
you don't need an exo suit to lay bricks, they're not that heavy

The issue we need to address is the fact that the lowest level earners are the ones who usually have the most children, creating a pool of uneducated labor that is too large for our economy to manage.  The one thing we seem to overlook is personal responsibility, people love to blame the system for their failures, not themselves and those they associate with.  We have a responsibility to raise the next generation to be capable of finding jobs in the new high tech world, and I think my parents did a damn good job of it, and judging by your level of concern, so did yours, but there are millions of people in this country, and the world in general, who raise (or fail to raise) their children to be completely inept at everything except creating yet another generation of failure.
2008-12-17 12:03:54
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6985|Disaster Free Zone
Same arguments been going on for generations.

New technologies create more jobs then they take away. Why do you think that even though our population has never been higher, unemployment has never been lower?
2008-12-17 12:09:51
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
Well as you said it starts to Implode in on it's self.  Our education standards are far lacking in the mandatory schooling and a large percentage of people can't afford the schooling after the mandatory.. We can further advance people though and are going to need to start with better education.

Ignorance breads ignorance and yes these are the people that are rewarded for bad behaivor and have more children.. Where we support them so they children don't starve and they don't go homeless, they're children get raised the same as they're parents.. Personal responsibilty is learned and those having the children aren't teaching it, also the kids today are spoiled..
2008-12-17 12:14:45
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ

DrunkFace wrote:

Same arguments been going on for generations.

New technologies create more jobs then they take away. Why do you think that even though our population has never been higher, unemployment has never been lower?
Were that is true what we're seeing is the bottom droping out, which effects the top. Without a strong labor force/unskilled work it effects the top.. What I'm saying is what changes in our economic system/political system do you feel would advance the human race. 

The last one that I think really happend was the World Market.
2008-12-17 12:18:45
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6846|Texas - Bigger than France
biotech
nanotech
environmental

ps. computers are going away - whoops I meant declining

Last edited by Pug (2008-12-17 12:19:04)

2008-12-18 06:58:20
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6594|Éire

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Still changing the structure of our economy.. If labor jobs are removed by robots/advancement in technology shouldn't we start training a work force that can handle the more technical jobs at a younger age?
That's the general idea, Ireland are smart enough in this regard, although there have been questionable cut backs in relation to primary level teaching there has been no cutbacks in R&D... in fact it's one of the few areas that has received increased funding.

Knowledge-based economy ftw!

Last edited by Braddock (2008-12-18 06:59:00)

2008-12-18 09:44:29
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7000|NJ
Well we're always going to need uneducated labor though, well at least hopefully.. And in most cases this uneducated labor is what spends the money to keep everyone else floating.. With out a lower/middle class the money won't be spent on goods and services that keep the upper class/middle class employed. So when the Upper Middle/upper Class gets greedy and doesn't take care of the lower/middle class we get what's happening now, an economic crisis.. We have so many of the richest people in the world, and the pooriest people in the world and it's going to end up crashing everything..
2008-12-18 22:29:16
MysteryJake
Member
+12|6512|California

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Well we're always going to need uneducated labor though, well at least hopefully.. And in most cases this uneducated labor is what spends the money to keep everyone else floating.. With out a lower/middle class the money won't be spent on goods and services that keep the upper class/middle class employed. So when the Upper Middle/upper Class gets greedy and doesn't take care of the lower/middle class we get what's happening now, an economic crisis.. We have so many of the richest people in the world, and the pooriest people in the world and it's going to end up crashing everything..
How is it even possible that our lower class circulates the most money throughout the nation? I think that someone thats doing whatever they can just to scrape by doesn't have much money to go out spending on random things. The middle/upperclass (educated labor), however, has that extra money to spend on things other than necessities thereby stimulating the economy.
2008-12-18 22:30:06
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6457|what

MysteryJake wrote:

How is it even possible that our lower class circulates the most money throughout the nation? I think that someone thats doing whatever they can just to scrape by doesn't have much money to go out spending on random things. The middle/upperclass (educated labor), however, has that extra money to spend on things other than necessities thereby stimulating the economy.
Because the lower class doesn't save up money. The spend it almost immediately.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2008-12-19 17:18:25
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6709|North Carolina

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Seeing how we've been hitting some hard times in this world it really got me to thinking. Our modern day ways of doing things need to start advance with the times. Technology is one of the biggest things that is hurting our economies and job market.

Just 5 years ago before EZpass they had 8 people working at toll booths, now with EZpass you're lucky if they have 3 people collecting money at any given time. So that's more then a 50% cut of workers on it, now you can argue that now those old toll collectors will be able to get a job at EZpass but they're not going to need as many people to work the phones.

So what I'm thinking is with the advancement of technology to a point where we're shrinking down the work force, what is the future of our Economic future. Obviously Capitalism can't work if we don't have enough of a work force spending money and it literally shrinking down our need for a population. No need for a huge workforce, then people won't be purchasing the goods, so there won't be needs for the goods being made..


What do you think the future of our economic/political structures in the future?
Generally speaking, First World citizens will slowly have less kids per family (as usual), but the Third World will more than make up for it with their own rising birth rates (especially in Africa and South Asia).  So, in the long run, it just means that the First World will continuously depend on immigration for their own population growth needs -- although America seems to be a notable exception to this.  We actually have a decent amount of population growth outside of our already massive immigration numbers.  I suppose a lot of the "native" growth is coming from the Mormons -- they tend to have big families.

Because of this population dynamic, I'm not that worried about there being a lack of jobs.  It would seem that a much greater worry is the continual concentration of wealth at the very top of society as the rest of us begin to start fighting for scraps (in terms of wages not keeping up with rising inflation and costs of living).

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-12-19 17:19:35)

 

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