Well, you do have the EU reaming your ass right now. That's actually more elitist and corporate than anything in America. It also is more statist than our own plutocratic government.Uzique wrote:
It's not about sophistication or civility, it's about practising real democracy... as opposed to bending over and being shafted by an elite elected minority.usmarine wrote:
yep. euros act like they are so sophisticated. yet they have riots like this. in italy a couple years ago, they did not allow fans in the stadium of some football matches. ya, real sophisticated. lulz.
An economic bloc having what exactly to do with Greek riots?Turquoise wrote:
Well, you do have the EU reaming your ass right now. That's actually more elitist and corporate than anything in America. It also is more statist than our own plutocratic government.Uzique wrote:
It's not about sophistication or civility, it's about practising real democracy... as opposed to bending over and being shafted by an elite elected minority.usmarine wrote:
yep. euros act like they are so sophisticated. yet they have riots like this. in italy a couple years ago, they did not allow fans in the stadium of some football matches. ya, real sophisticated. lulz.
Jesus the last two posts were really random.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I'm just saying... More than America has issues with "elite minorities" ruling over us. Different societies submit to different abuses.Uzique wrote:
An economic bloc having what exactly to do with Greek riots?Turquoise wrote:
Well, you do have the EU reaming your ass right now. That's actually more elitist and corporate than anything in America. It also is more statist than our own plutocratic government.Uzique wrote:
It's not about sophistication or civility, it's about practising real democracy... as opposed to bending over and being shafted by an elite elected minority.
Jesus the last two posts were really random.
Greeks seem less likely to tolerate police abuse, but apparently a lot of European nations are ok with uniting economically -- which mostly equals consolidating business interests into even more powerful entities with more power to encroach on labor rights and consumer rights.
I was talking about Greece and their riots, police misrule and misconduct... nothing to do with America, so please spare the back-foot defense retort on the European Union. The economic interests of the EU as a whole doesn't really have much congruence with the rioting of singular nations and their right to fair democratic society.Turquoise wrote:
I'm just saying... More than America has issues with "elite minorities" ruling over us. Different societies submit to different abuses.Uzique wrote:
An economic bloc having what exactly to do with Greek riots?Turquoise wrote:
Well, you do have the EU reaming your ass right now. That's actually more elitist and corporate than anything in America. It also is more statist than our own plutocratic government.
Jesus the last two posts were really random.
Greeks seem less likely to tolerate police abuse, but apparently a lot of European nations are ok with uniting economically -- which mostly equals consolidating business interests into even more powerful entities with more power to encroach on labor rights and consumer rights.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I agree with this... and in a way the riots are connected. Yes basically they're about state violence, but the economic perspective is there as well. Today there was a major rally and strikes because lately the government has been fucking up even more than usually.Turquoise wrote:
a lot of European nations are ok with uniting economically -- which mostly equals consolidating business interests into even more powerful entities with more power to encroach on labor rights and consumer rights.
The general economic crisis has not been handled well at all. Not to mention the fact that generally the Greek standards of living are way lower than other European countries. Ireland has surpassed us 10 times within a decade for example. Corruption is so deeply rooted, it just seems futile to bother fighting it. That's why people took to the streets so massively.
What I don't understand though is why usmarine thinks this is a bad thing. Let me put it this way: If the Greek government tried to pass something similar to the Patriot Act we'd burn them alive. At least I hope so...
ƒ³
As I said before, rioting can be a legitimate form of expression against abuse, but I was just pointing out that it has nothing to do with whether or not you live in a democracy. People riot in a lot of non-democratic states, and for the most part, they do it more often because there's usually more to riot about. Free nations generally riot less, which is why this incident stands out. France is one of the few democratic countries that riots a lot.Uzique wrote:
I was talking about Greece and their riots, police misrule and misconduct... nothing to do with America, so please spare the back-foot defense retort on the European Union. The economic interests of the EU as a whole doesn't really have much congruence with the rioting of singular nations and their right to fair democratic society.Turquoise wrote:
I'm just saying... More than America has issues with "elite minorities" ruling over us. Different societies submit to different abuses.Uzique wrote:
An economic bloc having what exactly to do with Greek riots?
Jesus the last two posts were really random.
Greeks seem less likely to tolerate police abuse, but apparently a lot of European nations are ok with uniting economically -- which mostly equals consolidating business interests into even more powerful entities with more power to encroach on labor rights and consumer rights.
I suppose Greece may do it a lot as well. I don't know as much about Greece.
Last edited by Turquoise (2008-12-10 21:24:35)
Well, if things are as corrupt as you say they are, you might want to have a revolution.oug wrote:
I agree with this... and in a way the riots are connected. Yes basically they're about state violence, but the economic perspective is there as well. Today there was a major rally and strikes because lately the government has been fucking up even more than usually.Turquoise wrote:
a lot of European nations are ok with uniting economically -- which mostly equals consolidating business interests into even more powerful entities with more power to encroach on labor rights and consumer rights.
The general economic crisis has not been handled well at all. Not to mention the fact that generally the Greek standards of living are way lower than other European countries. Ireland has surpassed us 10 times within a decade for example. Corruption is so deeply rooted, it just seems futile to bother fighting it. That's why people took to the streets so massively.
What I don't understand though is why usmarine thinks this is a bad thing. Let me put it this way: If the Greek government tried to pass something similar to the Patriot Act we'd burn them alive. At least I hope so...
I've often wondered why so many Mediterranean states have so many issues with their governments. For example, Italy's government is corrupt as hell.
How did Italy go from being the center of one of the world's greatest empires to being the country that can't keep a stable government together longer than a few years? Greece makes me wonder too. You'd think Greece's long tradition of deep thinkers would help them out some in terms of governing.
I fail to see how rioting is expressing the true form of democracy.
Yes, if anything, the need for rioting would imply a lack of democracy. Rioting generally only occurs when freedom is lacking.SgtHeihn wrote:
I fail to see how rioting is expressing the true form of democracy.
Something happens on the news .. that's a riot.SgtHeihn wrote:
I fail to see how rioting is expressing the true form of democracy.
Your futball team loses .. that's a riot.
Your nation's entry loses the eurovision contest .. that's a riot.
A large company fires a few employees .. that's a riot.
Government changes how they run college student loans .. that's a riot.
Kylee Minogue is coming to town .. that's a riot.
It's not so much expressing the true form of Democracy - it's more like default reaction
Well, if that doesn't sum it up in a nut shell.Turquoise wrote:
Yes, if anything, the need for rioting would imply a lack of democracy. Rioting generally only occurs when freedom is lacking.SgtHeihn wrote:
I fail to see how rioting is expressing the true form of democracy.
I hate to say it, but if your political parties are that shitty to where you only have shitty candidates put up for an ELECTION then I guess you need some new ones.
The funny thing is everyone though Bush was bad, some of the countries over their can't even get a working government for more than 4yrs.
Well I guess they are more worried about rioting then forming a stable government, lolrdx-fx wrote:
Something happens on the news .. that's a riot.SgtHeihn wrote:
I fail to see how rioting is expressing the true form of democracy.
Your futball team loses .. that's a riot.
Your nation's entry loses the eurovision contest .. that's a riot.
A large company fires a few employees .. that's a riot.
Government changes how they run college student loans .. that's a riot.
Kylee Minogue is coming to town .. that's a riot.
It's not so much expressing the true form of Democracy - it's more like default reaction
Kylee Mingogue is a MILF I would love to see where the pee came from.
I think rioting is a last-ditch effort, really... I can't defend the act but I can definitely sympathize with and understand why riots occur. It's kind of like criticizing activists in Tibet for not using their long-standing culture of philosophers and great thinkers in order to form a civilized democracy/society in the bureacratic and orderly way. Sometimes not everyone wants to play ball. When you're dealing with a system that is (potentially) corrupt and rotten to the core, then the only practical way to bring about change is to smash it to the floor. No amount of hypothesizing or political idealizing is going to escape that fact; when shit hits the fan, riots will occur.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Now this is something I can understand a little better.Uzique wrote:
I think rioting is a last-ditch effort, really... I can't defend the act but I can definitely sympathize with and understand why riots occur. It's kind of like criticizing activists in Tibet for not using their long-standing culture of philosophers and great thinkers in order to form a civilized democracy/society in the bureacratic and orderly way. Sometimes not everyone wants to play ball. When you're dealing with a system that is (potentially) corrupt and rotten to the core, then the only practical way to bring about change is to smash it to the floor. No amount of hypothesizing or political idealizing is going to escape that fact; when shit hits the fan, riots will occur.
You're right that "playing ball" is sometimes an act in futility, in terms of actually improving things.
Still, I have to mention that most rioting only makes things worse. The L.A. riots, for example, may have been a protest against racist cops, but it mostly involved black people burning and looting their own neighborhoods. They took a bad situation and made it worse, and they even found a scapegoat to abuse (Asian shopkeepers).
Yep, sure. I see your point and agree, which is why I pre-empted my post with a "I can't defend the act". Desperate times call for desperate measures though I guess; when there are no other alternatives, what are you going to do? Sit back and tolerate the injustice or gather in numbers for a last attempt at resolution? Although this is greatly exaggerating the Greek situation (nationwide injustice and corruption there certainly is not) it is moreso a general observation on public rioting and civil misconduct.Turquoise wrote:
Now this is something I can understand a little better.Uzique wrote:
I think rioting is a last-ditch effort, really... I can't defend the act but I can definitely sympathize with and understand why riots occur. It's kind of like criticizing activists in Tibet for not using their long-standing culture of philosophers and great thinkers in order to form a civilized democracy/society in the bureacratic and orderly way. Sometimes not everyone wants to play ball. When you're dealing with a system that is (potentially) corrupt and rotten to the core, then the only practical way to bring about change is to smash it to the floor. No amount of hypothesizing or political idealizing is going to escape that fact; when shit hits the fan, riots will occur.
You're right that "playing ball" is sometimes an act in futility, in terms of actually improving things.
Still, I have to mention that most rioting only makes things worse. The L.A. riots, for example, may have been a protest against racist cops, but it mostly involved black people burning and looting their own neighborhoods. They took a bad situation and made it worse, and they even found a scapegoat to abuse (Asian shopkeepers).
I think a lot of the lack of understanding may stem from cultural differences-- and that certainly isn't to draw a diametric opposition between Europe and the USA. A lot of our European neighbors over here do things in hugely different ways, so our customs and politics are not really comparable. The Greeks and French (particularly Parisian immigrant diaspora/migrant communities) seem to love a good strike/riot whenever something unfortunate happens. Could be here for a month guessing the political, sociological and cultural reasons behind why that actually happens...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
In all honesty, the most effective way to violently achieve progress is sort of the "V for Vendetta" thing.Uzique wrote:
Yep, sure. I see your point and agree, which is why I pre-empted my post with a "I can't defend the act". Desperate times call for desperate measures though I guess; when there are no other alternatives, what are you going to do? Sit back and tolerate the injustice or gather in numbers for a last attempt at resolution? Although this is greatly exaggerating the Greek situation (nationwide injustice and corruption there certainly is not) it is moreso a general observation on public rioting and civil misconduct.Turquoise wrote:
Now this is something I can understand a little better.Uzique wrote:
I think rioting is a last-ditch effort, really... I can't defend the act but I can definitely sympathize with and understand why riots occur. It's kind of like criticizing activists in Tibet for not using their long-standing culture of philosophers and great thinkers in order to form a civilized democracy/society in the bureacratic and orderly way. Sometimes not everyone wants to play ball. When you're dealing with a system that is (potentially) corrupt and rotten to the core, then the only practical way to bring about change is to smash it to the floor. No amount of hypothesizing or political idealizing is going to escape that fact; when shit hits the fan, riots will occur.
You're right that "playing ball" is sometimes an act in futility, in terms of actually improving things.
Still, I have to mention that most rioting only makes things worse. The L.A. riots, for example, may have been a protest against racist cops, but it mostly involved black people burning and looting their own neighborhoods. They took a bad situation and made it worse, and they even found a scapegoat to abuse (Asian shopkeepers).
I think a lot of the lack of understanding may stem from cultural differences-- and that certainly isn't to draw a diametric opposition between Europe and the USA. A lot of our European neighbors over here do things in hugely different ways, so our customs and politics are not really comparable. The Greeks and French (particularly Parisian immigrant diaspora/migrant communities) seem to love a good strike/riot whenever something unfortunate happens. Could be here for a month guessing the political, sociological and cultural reasons behind why that actually happens...
If you restrict your violence to only authorities, and you spare everyone else, then you're truly a "freedom fighter." I would assume the people responsible for the corruption in Greece are probably high level officials. If, instead of rioting, someone decided to start sniping the guilty politicians or started blowing them up with things like car bombs, then that might actually scare the government enough to change for the better.
I still don't think that rioting is the answer. Look what it is doing,it isn't changing anything it is just destroying their economy. Look at Thailand, they stood up without riots(kinda) and they changed their government. You guys bitch at the US, but we have had a stable government for 200 plus years.
Rioting only brings negative light to your cause, it just makes you look like a group of drunken frat boys that got kicked out of your house.
Rioting only brings negative light to your cause, it just makes you look like a group of drunken frat boys that got kicked out of your house.
Yeah, a revolution would be very handy atm.Turquoise wrote:
Well, if things are as corrupt as you say they are, you might want to have a revolution.
Well if democracy functioned properly there would be no need for them. But it doesn't.SgtHeihn wrote:
I fail to see how rioting is expressing the true form of democracy.
When the government's economic policy is designed to help the rich and the banks, when members of the parliament form offshore companies to sell out state property to the church, and when uneducated and untrained fuckers roam the streets with a gun and a badge shooting 15 year olds, the Greeks take to the streets and burn the fuckers.
Nobody is ever going to give us anything just like that. We learned that the hard way around here. If you want something, you have to fight for it. Especially when that something is freedom, democracy and transparency in all public affairs. Sitting at home watching tv means that sooner or later you're bound to get fucked up the ass.
ƒ³
Nope... we're just not so fat that we can't get off our sofa to go and complain to our Government.usmarine wrote:
yep. euros act like they are so sophisticated. yet they have riots like this. in italy a couple years ago, they did not allow fans in the stadium of some football matches. ya, real sophisticated. lulz.
couldnt agree more with yououg wrote:
Yeah, a revolution would be very handy atm.Turquoise wrote:
Well, if things are as corrupt as you say they are, you might want to have a revolution.Well if democracy functioned properly there would be no need for them. But it doesn't.SgtHeihn wrote:
I fail to see how rioting is expressing the true form of democracy.
When the government's economic policy is designed to help the rich and the banks, when members of the parliament form offshore companies to sell out state property to the church, and when uneducated and untrained fuckers roam the streets with a gun and a badge shooting 15 year olds, the Greeks take to the streets and burn the fuckers.
Nobody is ever going to give us anything just like that. We learned that the hard way around here. If you want something, you have to fight for it. Especially when that something is freedom, democracy and transparency in all public affairs. Sitting at home watching tv means that sooner or later you're bound to get fucked up the ass.
and thats why we love our country...we will not sit at home like chickens watching whats is happenning from tv
tell that to someone who hasnt been to the UK or "mainland" europe. they might believe you are all fit and trim. lulzBraddock wrote:
Nope... we're just not so fat that we can't get off our sofa to go and complain to our Government.usmarine wrote:
yep. euros act like they are so sophisticated. yet they have riots like this. in italy a couple years ago, they did not allow fans in the stadium of some football matches. ya, real sophisticated. lulz.
Last edited by usmarine (2008-12-11 15:35:14)
Democracy is mob rule.SgtHeihn wrote:
I fail to see how rioting is expressing the true form of democracy.
What the police did was simply wrong and definitely reprehensible. But imo the riots are now way overboard. It seems to me that some rioters are just using this as an excuse to break the law with impunity, and perhaps vent some pent up frustration at the bad economic situation. I fail to see how looting is a form of expressive democracy. Next thing will be rioters shooting police for revenge.
Why not have peaceful demonstrations with a massive turnout? I'm sure that will have more long term benefits, as now the government will just say you are "breaking the law as enemies of democracy so stfu".
Why not have peaceful demonstrations with a massive turnout? I'm sure that will have more long term benefits, as now the government will just say you are "breaking the law as enemies of democracy so stfu".
That's exactly what's happening. But that is to be expected from the mob. To make an omelet you need to break some eggs. The thing to remember in situations like these imo is that there is a reason it all started to begin with. This is not football match riots - though I'm sure lots of mindless hooligans have blended in - this is 100% the government's fault. Peaceful demonstrations would not make a point. Now the people are clearly saying they have had enough, and those in power will think again before fucking up this badly next time.maffiaw wrote:
What the police did was simply wrong and definitely reprehensible. But imo the riots are now way overboard. It seems to me that some rioters are just using this as an excuse to break the law with impunity, and perhaps vent some pent up frustration at the bad economic situation. I fail to see how looting is a form of expressive democracy. Next thing will be rioters shooting police for revenge.
Why not have peaceful demonstrations with a massive turnout? I'm sure that will have more long term benefits, as now the government will just say you are "breaking the law as enemies of democracy so stfu".
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I'll challenge you to an online pull-ups contest then laddy... might want to put down that glass of scotch!usmarine wrote:
tell that to someone who hasnt been to the UK or "mainland" europe. they might believe you are all fit and trim. lulzBraddock wrote:
Nope... we're just not so fat that we can't get off our sofa to go and complain to our Government.usmarine wrote:
yep. euros act like they are so sophisticated. yet they have riots like this. in italy a couple years ago, they did not allow fans in the stadium of some football matches. ya, real sophisticated. lulz.