Nope, those doors were ripped from the hinges, someone or some people did that. Nail them if you can identify them.DrPeePeeFace wrote:
Now I agree with that, Let's say no one party can be blamed. We'll say that the people who actually trampled the guy were being pushed and shoved by the mob behind them against their will over the guard, and the guard did everything he was told/trained to do. Let's also say that the door manufacturer can't be blamed since the doors were never advertised as being able to take that kind of abuse and Walmart can't be blamed since they can't be held responsible for everyone in their stores. No amount of lawsuit money will bring the guard back to life so now what? All we can do is prevent it from happening again right? yes? no? anyone??lowing wrote:
The truth is they are gunna spend the next several months hoping no one points them out of the crowd.
You could nail them for vandalism but it might be tough connecting that directly to a man killed from being trampled.lowing wrote:
Nope, those doors were ripped from the hinges, someone or some people did that. Nail them if you can identify them.DrPeePeeFace wrote:
Now I agree with that, Let's say no one party can be blamed. We'll say that the people who actually trampled the guy were being pushed and shoved by the mob behind them against their will over the guard, and the guard did everything he was told/trained to do. Let's also say that the door manufacturer can't be blamed since the doors were never advertised as being able to take that kind of abuse and Walmart can't be blamed since they can't be held responsible for everyone in their stores. No amount of lawsuit money will bring the guard back to life so now what? All we can do is prevent it from happening again right? yes? no? anyone??lowing wrote:
The truth is they are gunna spend the next several months hoping no one points them out of the crowd.
I don't really care how honest you are. If you were faced with being taken away from your family due to a death that you KNEW you weren't even to blame for, would you turn yourself in?lowing wrote:
I can say I would never ever be in such a situation. You have no idea just how terribly honest I am, do not under estimate me. If I thought I caused someone's death, I would turn myself in.Poseidon wrote:
Neither would I (Cyber Monday ftw), but regardless of what the situation is, you'd never, ever turn yourself into the police for something like that. Saying you would is nothing but complete bullshit. Nobody would.lowing wrote:
If you want me to be honest about it I will:
I never would have been part of such a crowd in the first place.
LOL, gee, I guess the answer is no, since I have never turned myself in for deaths I did not cause. Get back with me when I find myself faced with a death that I actually did cause.Poseidon wrote:
I don't really care how honest you are. If you were faced with being taken away from your family due to a death that you KNEW you weren't even to blame for, would you turn yourself in?lowing wrote:
I can say I would never ever be in such a situation. You have no idea just how terribly honest I am, do not under estimate me. If I thought I caused someone's death, I would turn myself in.Poseidon wrote:
Neither would I (Cyber Monday ftw), but regardless of what the situation is, you'd never, ever turn yourself into the police for something like that. Saying you would is nothing but complete bullshit. Nobody would.
If that guy was under the door, I am guessing manslaughter could be faced?DrPeePeeFace wrote:
You could nail them for vandalism but it might be tough connecting that directly to a man killed from being trampled.lowing wrote:
Nope, those doors were ripped from the hinges, someone or some people did that. Nail them if you can identify them.DrPeePeeFace wrote:
Now I agree with that, Let's say no one party can be blamed. We'll say that the people who actually trampled the guy were being pushed and shoved by the mob behind them against their will over the guard, and the guard did everything he was told/trained to do. Let's also say that the door manufacturer can't be blamed since the doors were never advertised as being able to take that kind of abuse and Walmart can't be blamed since they can't be held responsible for everyone in their stores. No amount of lawsuit money will bring the guard back to life so now what? All we can do is prevent it from happening again right? yes? no? anyone??
And you never will.lowing wrote:
LOL, gee, I guess the answer is no, since I have never turned myself in for deaths I did not cause.
This was a horrible situation... it's hard to say who's at fault... the people that were in the front of the line that went through the doors or the people behind that were pushing... I'm pretty sure nobody wanted anyone to die... just a deal on a f'ng tv...
The guy's family who was killed have a legitimate argue with a lawsuit... Walmart is negligent for not having monitored the situation and adjusted security and or called in police when the crowd got so large...
I am disgusted by the frivolous 200 million dollar lawsuits usually... but they seem to have a case here...
nobody wins in this situation, though...
The guy's family who was killed have a legitimate argue with a lawsuit... Walmart is negligent for not having monitored the situation and adjusted security and or called in police when the crowd got so large...
I am disgusted by the frivolous 200 million dollar lawsuits usually... but they seem to have a case here...
nobody wins in this situation, though...
Love is the answer
Yep...the way our legal system works if someone with "deep-pockets" is even 1% at fault then they can be sued successfully. I hope the people in the security video can be prosecuted.
I think you can also add that will never feel guilty for deaths I did not cause either. You kinda have lost your way with this argument you are trying to makePoseidon wrote:
And you never will.lowing wrote:
LOL, gee, I guess the answer is no, since I have never turned myself in for deaths I did not cause.
Neh, no one expected to see anyone die, but their indifference to the event is a black mark on American society.[TUF]Catbox wrote:
This was a horrible situation... it's hard to say who's at fault... the people that were in the front of the line that went through the doors or the people behind that were pushing... I'm pretty sure nobody wanted anyone to die... just a deal on a f'ng tv...
The guy's family who was killed have a legitimate argue with a lawsuit... Walmart is negligent for not having monitored the situation and adjusted security and or called in police when the crowd got so large...
I am disgusted by the frivolous 200 million dollar lawsuits usually... but they seem to have a case here...
nobody wins in this situation, though...
I am guessing the situation got outta hand before anyone could react to it.
It is funny how everyone wants to blame Wal Mart for this expecting them to responsible for peoples behavior in their store, yet I can not seem to get anyone to bite on the idea that if this is how it is going to be, then WalMart has every right to discriminate for whatever reason they want to keep people they do not want from entering their stores. YOUR safety being their first concern of course.
I think however you all want it both ways, they are not allowed and powerless to keep people out that they want to ( for safety reasons), but should still be held responsible for the actions of those people.
It sucks all the way around... if the doors had been knocked down and the guard jumped back or was out of the way... then this would be a no story...
I would also carefully look at the video tape and see who was pushing on the door or if they were just being pushed and couldnt fight against the crowd... the pushers should be charged with involuntary manslaughter and breaking and entering....
and it sucks that the police were there earlier in the night and left... would have been a better situation if they were to make people think twice about pushing and acting stupid... Walmart and other stores need to change how they have these sales in the future i'm guessing... to protect their own asses...
EDIT: I just read this on a news site
"Wal-Mart worker Jimmy Overby told the News that workers took the store doors off of their hinges as they fought their way into the store."
if that's the case than Walmart is not liable.... the people that the doors off the hinges are and should be arrested and jailed
I would also carefully look at the video tape and see who was pushing on the door or if they were just being pushed and couldnt fight against the crowd... the pushers should be charged with involuntary manslaughter and breaking and entering....
and it sucks that the police were there earlier in the night and left... would have been a better situation if they were to make people think twice about pushing and acting stupid... Walmart and other stores need to change how they have these sales in the future i'm guessing... to protect their own asses...
EDIT: I just read this on a news site
"Wal-Mart worker Jimmy Overby told the News that workers took the store doors off of their hinges as they fought their way into the store."
if that's the case than Walmart is not liable.... the people that the doors off the hinges are and should be arrested and jailed
Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2008-12-03 23:43:21)
Love is the answer
It's not about deaths you didn't cause. It's deaths you unwillingly had a part in due to the amount of oblivious people around you.lowing wrote:
I think you can also add that will never feel guilty for deaths I did not cause either. You kinda have lost your way with this argument you are trying to makePoseidon wrote:
And you never will.lowing wrote:
LOL, gee, I guess the answer is no, since I have never turned myself in for deaths I did not cause.
Lost my way? You're the one saying you'd take yourself away from your family if you thought you caused a death in a way that wasn't your fault.
LMAO you might wanna re-read this rediculous exchange. You asked me if I would turn my self in for something I did not do. I said nope. Never have been in a habit of accepting responsibility for shit I am not responsible for. I would probably turn myself in for something I did do however.Poseidon wrote:
It's not about deaths you didn't cause. It's deaths you unwillingly had a part in due to the amount of oblivious people around you.lowing wrote:
I think you can also add that will never feel guilty for deaths I did not cause either. You kinda have lost your way with this argument you are trying to makePoseidon wrote:
And you never will.
Lost my way? You're the one saying you'd take yourself away from your family if you thought you caused a death in a way that wasn't your fault.
You might wanna as well before you go off and suggest I do the same. You are NOT in the situation these people are in and act as if you think you are.lowing wrote:
LMAO you might wanna re-read this rediculous exchange. You asked me if I would turn my self in for something I did not do. I said nope. Never have been in a habit of accepting responsibility for shit I am not responsible for. I would probably turn myself in for something I did do however.Poseidon wrote:
It's not about deaths you didn't cause. It's deaths you unwillingly had a part in due to the amount of oblivious people around you.lowing wrote:
I think you can also add that will never feel guilty for deaths I did not cause either. You kinda have lost your way with this argument you are trying to make
Lost my way? You're the one saying you'd take yourself away from your family if you thought you caused a death in a way that wasn't your fault.
And if you wouldn't accept responsibility for what you weren't responsible for, why do you think it's not reasonable for people who were basically forced into trampling this guy to not turn themselves in. Nobody is going to turn themselves in for something they know they were not responsible for. That's my point, which you somehow still fail to see.
You're running circles around yourself.
Last edited by Poseidon (2008-12-04 13:55:21)
Sue them for wasting tax payers money on frivolous lawsuits.
TBH, I'm with lowing on this one.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Wal-Mart is partially responsible for this.
1. They invited and encouraged these people to come to their store.
2. BF is a well known shopping day where people are known to line up outside waiting for the doors to open.
3. This is not the first time this has happened. As such, Wal-Mart had reasonable history to believe that this would be the same.
4. Wal-Mart is responsible for crowd control on their premises.
It then stands that Wal-Mart should have know that something like this was more than plausible and taken appropriate action ahead of time to restrict flow into the store in a manner that would not create this situation.
1. They invited and encouraged these people to come to their store.
2. BF is a well known shopping day where people are known to line up outside waiting for the doors to open.
3. This is not the first time this has happened. As such, Wal-Mart had reasonable history to believe that this would be the same.
4. Wal-Mart is responsible for crowd control on their premises.
It then stands that Wal-Mart should have know that something like this was more than plausible and taken appropriate action ahead of time to restrict flow into the store in a manner that would not create this situation.
nope, your point was that these people are gunna "live the rest of their lives in guilt", well, if they think they didn't do anything, then there is no reason they should feel guilty. My argument was, they will not feel guilty at all, their main concern is of getting fingered.Poseidon wrote:
You might wanna as well before you go off and suggest I do the same. You are NOT in the situation these people are in and act as if you think you are.lowing wrote:
LMAO you might wanna re-read this rediculous exchange. You asked me if I would turn my self in for something I did not do. I said nope. Never have been in a habit of accepting responsibility for shit I am not responsible for. I would probably turn myself in for something I did do however.Poseidon wrote:
It's not about deaths you didn't cause. It's deaths you unwillingly had a part in due to the amount of oblivious people around you.
Lost my way? You're the one saying you'd take yourself away from your family if you thought you caused a death in a way that wasn't your fault.
And if you wouldn't accept responsibility for what you weren't responsible for, why do you think it's not reasonable for people who were basically forced into trampling this guy to not turn themselves in. Nobody is going to turn themselves in for something they know they were not responsible for. That's my point, which you somehow still fail to see.
You're running circles around yourself.
I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how if you are going to saddle Walmart for the responsibility of individual behavior at their stores, thay would also have the right to decide who they allow in them. Some reason, I can't get a response on that. I suspect it is because deep down, you know damn well Walmart or any other retailer is not responsible for the behavior of their customers.
Last edited by lowing (2008-12-04 18:47:13)
I think both of us can agree we don't know what we would do in said situation unless we were actually IN the situation itself. I know you think you never will, I'm just speaking hypothetically.lowing wrote:
nope, your point was that these people are gunna "live the rest of their lives in guilt", well, if they think they didn't do anything, then there is no reason they should feel guilty. My argument was, they will not feel guilty at all, their main concern is of getting fingered.Poseidon wrote:
You might wanna as well before you go off and suggest I do the same. You are NOT in the situation these people are in and act as if you think you are.lowing wrote:
LMAO you might wanna re-read this rediculous exchange. You asked me if I would turn my self in for something I did not do. I said nope. Never have been in a habit of accepting responsibility for shit I am not responsible for. I would probably turn myself in for something I did do however.
And if you wouldn't accept responsibility for what you weren't responsible for, why do you think it's not reasonable for people who were basically forced into trampling this guy to not turn themselves in. Nobody is going to turn themselves in for something they know they were not responsible for. That's my point, which you somehow still fail to see.
You're running circles around yourself.
1. They had a sale!.......SUE THEMAgent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Wal-Mart is partially responsible for this.
1. They invited and encouraged these people to come to their store.
2. BF is a well known shopping day where people are known to line up outside waiting for the doors to open.
3. This is not the first time this has happened. As such, Wal-Mart had reasonable history to believe that this would be the same.
4. Wal-Mart is responsible for crowd control on their premises.
It then stands that Wal-Mart should have know that something like this was more than plausible and taken appropriate action ahead of time to restrict flow into the store in a manner that would not create this situation.
2. BF is a well known shopping day where people are known to line up outside waiting for the doors to open, it is not well know for ripping doors off of hinges and killing store employees.
3. Nope this is not the first time this has happened, so sue Walmart for the personal responsiblity of everyone at the store. Do they then, get to decide who gets in and who does not not? I doubt you will sign off on this. you will the nsue walmart for discrimination.
4. Walmart does have crowd control. A controlled entry and exit point. Now who is responsible for the 2000 people that refuse to follow the rules of this control point and basic civility, respect and responsibility?
Eh.. just have a really large fried chicken buffet... that tends to ease tensions....
This is total bullshit. Anyone who camps out in front of a store overnight for a 10 dollar off sale is fucking insane to begin with. Wal Mart is negligent in the aspect of not properly negotiating a crowd in THEIR PARKING LOT. Jesus, business owners are all pissy if you want to carry a lawfully permitted gun into their establishment, let alone leave it in your car IN THEIR PARKING LOT whilst you shop, but the masses do as they please. ... Retardary.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
It's walmart's job to ensure the safety of its employees. They appear to have failed in that task. If it takes a big, painful lawsuit for walmart to improve its policies and proceedures, so be it.
This is true... but I hope the dumbasses responsible for the trampling are thrown in jail.Reciprocity wrote:
It's walmart's job to ensure the safety of its employees. They appear to have failed in that task. If it takes a big, painful lawsuit for walmart to improve its policies and proceedures, so be it.