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Poll

Should women be allowed to serve in the infantry?

Yes52%52% - 48
No47%47% - 44
Total: 92
2008-12-01 06:09:40
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6595|Éire
Here's my honest opinion...

Women soldiers offer a good second line of defence but are, by and large, never really going to be on a par with male soldiers. Women are generally weaker than men and require special treatment that often make the job more difficult. They also have menstrual cycles which provide an extra obstacle to their mental and physical performance and are prime targets on the battlefield for rape and sexually-oriented abuse.

However, countries like Russia have shown how useful women can be in battle scenarios and supposedly Iran has a highly skilled female militia too so women can still serve a role in this regard.
2008-12-01 06:42:15
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6805|so randum
Jesus, i think FatherTed summed it up perfectly! +1 ted!
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2008-12-01 07:56:51
eEyOrE
LINKS 2 3 4
+14|6301|Berlin, Germany
when i was still with the army (mechanized infantry) disliked female soldiers for a couple of reasons...

1) most of them (if not all) did not meet the physical and mental standards put up by our instructors, therefore forcing the rest of us to do their job too, which is fine at times, since being in the military is also about the man (or girl...) next to you, not just yourself...but most of the time they couldnt carry their bags for longer than 20 minutes, meaning some us had to do it for them

2) also, being surrounded only by guys, doing "man stuff" (drinking, gettin ditry, talkin about god knows what...) doesn not leave a lot of room for female soldiers to fit in...

3) also, being away from home and your gf / bitch / staurday night hooker, i found myself lookin at female soldiers in ways i shouldnt according to our instructors, which the females obviously noticed, and what them feel uncomfortable i'd imagine

4) the few female soldiers that really did a good job being a soldier looked like men and behaved like men, they would over-do the whole drill-instructor-boot-up-your-ass to seem as though as they possibly could have....

5) smelling their parfum made my uniform take on a different shape.......


though i agree with braddock about other countries using females as soldiers and doing it successfuly....
2008-12-01 08:49:09
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6699|The Gem Saloon

xBlackPantherx wrote:

Sorry Parker, but please get a realistic view of people and not stereotypical views.
no need to be sorry. though, the least you could do is point out where i dont have a "realistic view" of people.
and be careful, because i have made ONE point in this thread...thats right, one. 1. uno.

and so far, no one has been able to prove that im wrong.

maybe you dont value women as much as the rest of society, but that doesnt make me wrong.



shit, even a WOMAN came into this thread and said she thought that women did NOT need to be in combat roles.




Parker wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

I also disagree with practically everything you have said about 'men'.


now, care to elaborate?
STILL waiting on this as well...
2008-12-01 09:01:16
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7080|Moscow, Russia

Braddock wrote:

However, countries like Russia have shown how useful women can be in battle scenarios
huh? in infantry? no way, man. they did use women during ww2 as medics or messengers, even aircraft pilots, but not as your average grunts - the reasons are obvious, imho.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2008-12-01 09:04:50
jord
Member
+2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.
I'm pretty sure one of those Eastern European countries has female infantrywomen. Everyone has female medics and pilots, but Russia/East europe is known for having female fighters.
2008-12-01 09:13:49
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7080|Moscow, Russia

jord wrote:

I'm pretty sure one of those Eastern European countries has female infantrywomen. Everyone has female medics and pilots, but Russia/East europe is known for having female fighters.
i dunno what made you think that (Hollywood?), but re Russia you are completely wrong. if anything, there is less women in Russian army than in most NATO armies and they are specialists, not grunts.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2008-12-01 09:19:19
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6699|The Gem Saloon
ya, i would think that dedovshchina would keep most females out of the russian military.


shit, that would keep me out
2008-12-01 09:24:25
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6805|so randum
I remember some outcry about women not being able to be eurofighter pilots, until it was pointed out it would make them implode
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2008-12-01 09:39:30
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6986|Disaster Free Zone

Shahter wrote:

Braddock wrote:

However, countries like Russia have shown how useful women can be in battle scenarios
huh? in infantry? no way, man. they did use women during ww2 as medics or messengers, even aircraft pilots, but not as your average grunts - the reasons are obvious, imho.
New Zealand
New Zealand has no restrictions on roles for women in its defence force. They are able to serve in the Special Air Service, infantry, armour and artillery. This came into effect in 2001 by subordinate legislation.

Sweden
Since 1989 there are no gender restrictions in the Swedish military on access to military training or positions. They are allowed to serve in all parts of the military and in all positions, including combat.

Israel
Some women served in various positions in in the IDF, including infantry

Russia
During the Second World War, the Soviet Union had a female military strength of over one million women who served as snipers, machine gunners, and tank crew members.

eEyOrE wrote:

when i was still with the army (mechanized infantry) disliked female soldiers for a couple of reasons...

1) most of them (if not all) did not meet the physical and mental standards put up by our instructors, therefore forcing the rest of us to do their job too, which is fine at times, since being in the military is also about the man (or girl...) next to you, not just yourself...but most of the time they couldnt carry their bags for longer than 20 minutes, meaning some us had to do it for them

2) also, being surrounded only by guys, doing "man stuff" (drinking, gettin ditry, talkin about god knows what...) doesn not leave a lot of room for female soldiers to fit in...

3) also, being away from home and your gf / bitch / staurday night hooker, i found myself lookin at female soldiers in ways i shouldnt according to our instructors, which the females obviously noticed, and what them feel uncomfortable i'd imagine

4) the few female soldiers that really did a good job being a soldier looked like men and behaved like men, they would over-do the whole drill-instructor-boot-up-your-ass to seem as though as they possibly could have....

5) smelling their parfum made my uniform take on a different shape.......
1) Obviously shouldn't be given a combat role till they proved themselves... just like any male.
2) Since when was "drinking, gettin ditry, talkin about god knows what..." the sole domain of men?
3) And thats the womens fault how? Maybe it should be you who shouldn't be aloud to serve as you're the one who can't keep his dick in his pants and your mind on the job.
4) You have a problem with ugly chicks? or just those that try hard?
5) refer to 3).

Parker wrote:

and i never defined the "instinct", so im not sure who that part is directed towards.
didn't you?

Parker wrote:

its the fact that as males, it is an INSTINCT to try and protect females. behavior learned over thousands of years that is ingrained in our very existence....and thats without attraction.

Parker wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

I also disagree with practically everything you have said about 'men'.


now, care to elaborate?
Firstly the 'instinct' thing. It is a social sexist mentality that women need to be protected and is learned, and as such can be unlearned.
however the fear is that direct orders would be disobeyed to protect a female soldier.
I see no overwhelming reason someone would disobey an order to rescue a women over anyone else.
2008-12-01 09:47:14
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6699|The Gem Saloon

DrunkFace wrote:

Parker wrote:

its the fact that as males, it is an INSTINCT to try and protect females. behavior learned over thousands of years that is ingrained in our very existence....and thats without attraction.
ya, we learned that women provide our offspring.
crazy, huh

i still never defined what instinct.
but boy did you sure look smart telling me i was wrong.

DrunkFace wrote:

Firstly the 'instinct' thing. It is a social sexist mentality that women need to be protected and is learned, and as such can be unlearned.
i know, right?
who needs women around anyway?
all they do is help provide the future of our species.


and is that all? cause this:

DrunkFace wrote:

I also disagree with practically everything you have said about 'men'.
made it sound like you had a long list of things that i had said about "men" that you didnt agree with...

or was that just rhetoric?

DrunkFace wrote:

I see no overwhelming reason someone would disobey an order to rescue a women over anyone else.
of course you dont.

you cant even grasp the concept of why we would keep women out of combat!


and kudos for actually responding...

i was starting to get disappointed.
2008-12-01 09:49:35
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6527|Escea

FatherTed wrote:

I remember some outcry about women not being able to be eurofighter pilots, until it was pointed out it would make them implode
lmao

I thought female pilots were supposed to be able to withstand higher g-force's than male pilots? I remember seeing that somewhere, a documentary I think.
2008-12-01 10:02:14
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7080|Moscow, Russia

DrunkFace wrote:

Russia
During the Second World War, the Soviet Union had a female military strength of over one million women who served as snipers, machine gunners, and tank crew members.
lol, dude, put this crap back to where you dug it up from. medics, cooks, messengers, snipers ans pilots - yes, but mashinegunners? tank crew members?! i spoke to those who actually fought that war, my granddad AND grandmom included - yes, there were a lot of women in russian army during ww2, and of course they fought alongside men, but as i said they were support mostly, not grunts.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2008-12-01 10:03:24
jord
Member
+2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.

Shahter wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Russia
During the Second World War, the Soviet Union had a female military strength of over one million women who served as snipers, machine gunners, and tank crew members.
lol, dude, put this crap back to where you dug it up from. medics, cooks, messengers, snipers ans pilots - yes, but mashinegunners? tank crew members?! i spoke to those who actually fought that war, my granddad AND grandmom included - yes, there were a lot of women in russian army during ww2, and of course they fought alongside men, but as i said they were support mostly, not grunts.
Sniping is a support role of a combat arm (infantry)


Snipers are grunts.
2008-12-01 10:04:37
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6986|Disaster Free Zone

Parker wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Parker wrote:

its the fact that as males, it is an INSTINCT to try and protect females. behavior learned over thousands of years that is ingrained in our very existence....and thats without attraction.
ya, we learned that women provide our offspring.
crazy, huh

i still never defined what instinct.
but boy did you sure look smart telling i was wrong.
There's just nothing to say to this, its like giving you a cake and you claiming its an apple... There is just no hope.

Parker wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Firstly the 'instinct' thing. It is a social sexist mentality that women need to be protected and is learned, and as such can be unlearned.
i know, right?
who needs women around anyway?
all they do is help provide the future of our species.
Yeh, but men a completely expendable because they play no part in the reproductive cycle.

Parker wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

I see no overwhelming reason someone would disobey an order to rescue a women over anyone else.
of course you dont.

you cant even grasp the concept of why we would keep women out of combat!
Because there is no logical reason, only your sexist perceptions.


Parker wrote:

and kudos for actually responding...

i was starting to get disappointed.
Sure you were...
2008-12-01 10:07:42
jord
Member
+2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.
I'll caps lock a reason good enough for the sexist card users to be quite.


MILITARY PEOPLE THAT KNOW MORE ABOUT THE MILITARY THAN US AND HAVE BEEN IN MANY MORE YEARS THAN ANYONE HERE SAY WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT. THEIR OPINION IS GOING TO BE MORE ACCURATE THAN WATCHING A WOMENS RIGHTS DOCUMENTARY. THEY SAY WOMEN CANT FIGHT, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, SO WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT.


And armchair fight....continue!
2008-12-01 10:10:57
mtamosaitis
Member
+3|6289|Colorado Springs
I want to say YES but as hurricane2k9 points out this will happen no matter what a guy says now. Most guys will feel the need to protect her because she is a women.

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

The main problem I see is not men being distracted by staring at Sgt. Stacy's ass, but by wanting to protect the female(s) of the group. Female soldier is pinned by enemy fire, some male soldier might run out into open fire to try and rescue her. Not to mention that a female soldier would likely be raped if captured, in addition to whatever terrible things the 'freedom fighters' do.

Also, there's the problem of stuff like... periods. Women need to be extra-hygienic during that time of the month, or else they can get nasty things like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_shock_syndrome

It's not like you can just stroll into the local YMCA for a shower or head to CVS for some pads when you're in the middle of the Russian forest.
2008-12-01 10:22:04
PureFodder
Member
+225|6590

jord wrote:

I'll caps lock a reason good enough for the sexist card users to be quite.


MILITARY PEOPLE THAT KNOW MORE ABOUT THE MILITARY THAN US AND HAVE BEEN IN MANY MORE YEARS THAN ANYONE HERE SAY WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT. THEIR OPINION IS GOING TO BE MORE ACCURATE THAN WATCHING A WOMENS RIGHTS DOCUMENTARY. THEY SAY WOMEN CANT FIGHT, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, SO WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT.


And armchair fight....continue!
That's only a reasonable argument if they've actually tried letting women fight.

Remember, not that long ago the similar things were said about race.
2008-12-01 10:24:22
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6805|so randum

M.O.A.B wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

I remember some outcry about women not being able to be eurofighter pilots, until it was pointed out it would make them implode
lmao

I thought female pilots were supposed to be able to withstand higher g-force's than male pilots? I remember seeing that somewhere, a documentary I think.
nah other way round i think, cause they have a womb and other girly weak bits, their bodies cant take as much g.

fuckin weaklings i say
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2008-12-01 10:25:00
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6986|Disaster Free Zone

jord wrote:

I'll caps lock a reason good enough for the sexist card users to be quite.


MILITARY PEOPLE THAT KNOW MORE ABOUT THE MILITARY THAN US AND HAVE BEEN IN MANY MORE YEARS THAN ANYONE HERE SAY WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT. THEIR OPINION IS GOING TO BE MORE ACCURATE THAN WATCHING A WOMENS RIGHTS DOCUMENTARY. THEY SAY WOMEN CANT FIGHT, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, SO WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT.


And armchair fight....continue!
Hester's squad of two women and eight men in three Humvees was shadowing a 30-truck supply convoy when approximately 50 insurgent fighters ambushed the convoy with AK-47 assault rifle and RPK machine gun fire, and rocket propelled grenades (RPGs). The squad moved to the side of the road, flanking the insurgents and cutting off their escape route. Hester maneuvered her team through the "kill zone" and into a flanking position, where she and her squad leader, Staff Sergeant Timothy F. Nein, assaulted a trench line with hand grenades and M203 grenade launcher rounds. Hester and Nein assaulted and cleared two trenches. During the 25-minute firefight, Hester killed at least three enemy combatants with her M4 assault rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Ann_Hester
2008-12-01 10:25:20
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6699|The Gem Saloon

DrunkFace wrote:

There's just nothing to say to this, its like giving you a cake and you claiming its an apple... There is just no hope.
no, its me saying "instinct", and you saying "learned behavior"....but not before you tell me im wrong
see how that works?


DrunkFace wrote:

Yeh, but men a completely expendable because they play no part in the reproductive cycle.
men are genetically superior for combat roles.
simple as.
im sure it doesnt fit in with your view on the world, but facts are facts.
thats why you dont see armies full of women


Drunkface wrote:

Because there is no logical reason, only your sexist perceptions.
and there it is.

you are SO enlightened!
in fact, superior to me cause you judge everyone "equally" even though they arent.

im sorry that reality doesnt coincide with your PC bullshit, but us here in the real world operate on past experience.

you have no points to make, except that im "sexist".

Drunkface wrote:

Sure you were...
i was.

i have already been let down in this thread a couple times, and now that i see your basic "sexism" response, i can see that you will be another disappointment, as far as an actual debate goes.
now be predictable and call me sexist without actually debating the topic at hand.
i have yet to see you provide any information of why females would be just as effective as males in a combat role. while i have provided reasons of why they WOULD NOT be...you can just call me sexist. an intriguing debate, truly.


also, was there more to this thought:

Drunkface wrote:

I also disagree with practically everything you have said about 'men'.
cause you sure seemed like you had a lot to say then.....now, not so much?

no really, expand on "everything i have said about men"...







DrunkFace wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Ann_Hester
of course, this woman represents ALL females......



females, from now on this is the kind of behavior i expect out of all you!
2008-12-01 10:30:17
jord
Member
+2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.

DrunkFace wrote:

jord wrote:

I'll caps lock a reason good enough for the sexist card users to be quite.


MILITARY PEOPLE THAT KNOW MORE ABOUT THE MILITARY THAN US AND HAVE BEEN IN MANY MORE YEARS THAN ANYONE HERE SAY WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT. THEIR OPINION IS GOING TO BE MORE ACCURATE THAN WATCHING A WOMENS RIGHTS DOCUMENTARY. THEY SAY WOMEN CANT FIGHT, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, SO WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT.


And armchair fight....continue!
Hester's squad of two women and eight men in three Humvees was shadowing a 30-truck supply convoy when approximately 50 insurgent fighters ambushed the convoy with AK-47 assault rifle and RPK machine gun fire, and rocket propelled grenades (RPGs). The squad moved to the side of the road, flanking the insurgents and cutting off their escape route. Hester maneuvered her team through the "kill zone" and into a flanking position, where she and her squad leader, Staff Sergeant Timothy F. Nein, assaulted a trench line with hand grenades and M203 grenade launcher rounds. Hester and Nein assaulted and cleared two trenches. During the 25-minute firefight, Hester killed at least three enemy combatants with her M4 assault rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Ann_Hester
They can defend themselves against an ambush...

Ambushes aren't war. Like I said. In war, most military officers and generals agree women shouldn't be fighting. You think you're more qualified than someone who's done 25 years in the military?
2008-12-01 10:31:26
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7080|Moscow, Russia

jord wrote:

Sniping is a support role of a combat arm (infantry)


Snipers are grunts.
you don't really know much about how russians fought in ww2, do you? i'll tell you - they were zerging the hell out of anything that stood in their way, because human life was (and, i'm affraid, still is) a much cheaper war asset in russia than armaments and vehicles. full-auto, more bullets-per-second in general direction of the enemy, "hurray" - that's how russia won against nazies.

so, yeah, snipers are grunts, only there were not all that many snipers in russian army at all, and - obviously - very few among them were women.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2008-12-01 10:33:44
jord
Member
+2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.

Shahter wrote:

jord wrote:

Sniping is a support role of a combat arm (infantry)


Snipers are grunts.
you don't really know much about how russians fought in ww2, do you? i'll tell you - they were zerging the hell out of anything that stood in their way, because human life was (and, i'm affraid, still is) a much cheaper war asset in russia than armaments and vehicles. full-auto, more bullets-per-second in general direction of the enemy, "hurray" - that's how russia won against nazies.

so, yeah, snipers are grunts, only there were not all that many snipers in russian army at all, and - obviously - very few among them were women.
Me not knowing much about the Eastern front in WW2 doesn't mean I don't know that the the Sniper course is the hardest course in the infantry to pass...

Having a rifle with the sole purpose of killing the enemy=Infantry=Grunt
2008-12-01 10:38:01
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7080|Moscow, Russia

Parker wrote:

ya, i would think that dedovshchina would keep most females out of the russian military.


shit, that would keep me out
true. as the matter of a fact, that shit did keep me out of russian military.

Last edited by Shahter (2008-12-01 10:42:21)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

 

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