BF2S Forums What will happen if the big 3 collapsed?

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

So a man who does a job that any brainless idiot can do should get paid as much as someone who spent decades in training?

lolololololol

thank god you don't run things

If those jobs are in demand, then they get more pay.

Simple as that.

Everything else is neither here nor there.

Some people find calculus easy, some find cleaning toilets hard.

this is the funniest post i have ever read...lol...
a janitor should get more than someone who spent years at college learning a specialized field... okie doke...

If janitors are in demand and that specialized field isn't, yes.

God, I can't believe you don't get this.

GOING TO UNIVERSITY DOESN'T JUST GIVE YOU SOME KIND OF GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO AUTOMATICALLY GET A HIGHER PAYING JOB THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

It's called the Free Market.

I thought Americans were into that kinda thing.

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

So a man who does a job that any brainless idiot can do should get paid as much as someone who spent decades in training?

lolololololol

thank god you don't run things

If those jobs are in demand, then they get more pay.

Simple as that.

Everything else is neither here nor there.

Some people find calculus easy, some find cleaning toilets hard.

this is the funniest post i have ever read...lol...
a janitor should get more than someone who spent years at college learning a specialized field... okie doke...

He's saying if you specialise in something and the demand lowers then you get paid less. If I spent 5 years training in how to manage oil drilling rigs and the Oil ran out, then there would be no demand. A cleaner that works for a living would earn more than me...

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Unions are tricky - they protect the rights of the worker, but they also wield a lot of power over companies (and in this country, the government).

I don't think Unions should be banned, but they should be restricted.

Problem is the same there, as in most things wrong with America right now.

How to get people to sit down, STFU, and find rational solutions to real problems.

Instead it always turns into emotional hyperbole & finger pointing.


Like standing on the deck of the Titanic, arguing about who's fault it is that there's a hole in the side of the boat. 
(or rearranging the deck chairs, as the case may be)




And, really, the current union system in the USA needs to be gutted more than it needs to be 'restricted'.  The time for a relatively easy fix was the early 1980's.  We had a chance to compete with the Germans and Japanese to build a Quality, Reliable product - and we failed to take that opportunity when we had the advantage.

This seems to be an unfortunate pattern in a great many things.  We don't grab our balls and take the easy fix until 20-30 years after it was necessary.  Then, it's too late for 'easy' and too hard for 'necessary' - so we just sell off more of our infrastructure as a stopgap.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2008-11-15 13:31:27)

Harmor wrote:

lowing wrote:

I suppose then,the American car companies should have spent their time and money building a quality car to compete, instead of trying to build the cheapest car for increased profits.

See, the system works.

Didn't they build SUVs because the profit margin for each vehicle was greatest?  When you build a sub-compact the profit margin is probably the smallest I would imagine.

Do you think the auto-unions have something to do with this?  I mean working for an auto company is like working the government with respect to benefits (i.e. pension).  Has the government taken over the auto industry's pensions yet?

1.  Build a car the Americans want: right now its a cheap reliable car that gets pretty good gas mileage and doesn't feel like you're trying a tin can.
2.  Innovate: come out with something that we'll willing to pay for - natural language interface would be nice
3.  Lower costs: Retool your plants so its not so specialized, this way you can change the end product without stopping production for a week as demand changes
4.  Improve safety: always make a safer car than the year prior

Yea they made mass profit on the suv. For example the Tahoe and the Escalade are the same cars but with different exterior parts. You should be able to get an Escalade body kit and it should fit on the tahoe without modification.

S.Lythberg wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

and there is no market for janitors.

any schmuck can do it, and that's why the pay is typically low, someone will always do it for cheaper, and it isn't a job where quality of work is imperative

only .0001% of people can construct a functioning hydroelectric dam, and that's why the pay is so high for those that can.  once the pay differential is removed through legislation, the economy collapses when we have a world of janitors.

Maybe Jord's words will make more sense to you, seeing how some people just seem to see "Scorpion0x17" and then their brain switches off:

jord wrote:

He's saying if you specialise in something and the demand lowers then you get paid less. If I spent 5 years training in how to manage oil drilling rigs and the Oil ran out, then there would be no demand. A cleaner that works for a living would earn more than me...

lol, I don't even look at the names ;-)

hate the ides, not the man, too many people forget that nowadays...

But i understand your point that market pressure does partly determine wages, but the advent of unions and legislation have greatly inflated the pay rate for jobs that would otherwise be worth next to nothing, and that is why jobs get outsourced.

there is no skill required to mop floors, answer phones, or spray paint car fenders, and an Indian peasant or Mexican Immigrant will gladly do it for $5.00 an hour.

I understand that that sort of wage is well below living cost in the United states, but buy being forced to pay that kind of money for labor, our companies cannot remain competitive with other nations.

Which is why you bring in a minimum wage and enforce it ruthlessly.

Pretty much every problem in every country comes down to one thing - a lack of political will - the answers to the problems are known, it's just that no-one has the balls to stand up and say "I am going to fix this country/the world no matter what it takes".

S.Lythberg wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

lol, I don't even look at the names ;-)

hate the ides, not the man, too many people forget that nowadays...

But i understand your point that market pressure does partly determine wages, but the advent of unions and legislation have greatly inflated the pay rate for jobs that would otherwise be worth next to nothing, and that is why jobs get outsourced.

there is no skill required to mop floors, answer phones, or spray paint car fenders, and an Indian peasant or Mexican Immigrant will gladly do it for $5.00 an hour.

I understand that that sort of wage is well below living cost in the United states, but buy being forced to pay that kind of money for labor, our companies cannot remain competitive with other nations.

Which is why you bring in a minimum wage and enforce it ruthlessly.

Pretty much every problem in every country comes down to one thing - a lack of political will - the answers to the problems are known, it's just that no-one has the balls to stand up and say "I am going to fix this country/the world no matter what it takes".

People prefer instant gratification over long term stability in this country.

They demand an inflated wage, then cry when they get replaced by a Mexican (Who does a far better job much of the time.).

Its been that way for as long as I can remember.

I was gonna say it'll change.

Economic downturns tend to force people to think a little more about what's important rather than satisfying their insatiable need to be gratified right here, right now.

But, actually, I suspect it probably won't.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Which is why you bring in a minimum wage and enforce it ruthlessly.

Pretty much every problem in every country comes down to one thing - a lack of political will - the answers to the problems are known, it's just that no-one has the balls to stand up and say "I am going to fix this country/the world no matter what it takes".

People prefer instant gratification over long term stability in this country.

They demand an inflated wage, then cry when they get replaced by a Mexican (Who does a far better job much of the time.).

Its been that way for as long as I can remember.

I was gonna say it'll change.

Economic downturns tend to force people to think a little more about what's important rather than satisfying their insatiable need to be gratified right here, right now.

But, actually, I suspect it probably won't.

it will change for a few months, but people forget.

this isnt the first time easy credit has blown up our economy, and it won't bet he last

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

So Scorpion... why did you bother to go to University and spend your money... and study hard to get good grades... when you could have been a janitor and make the same? 

What about all the suckers that study how to run computer networks and do things that most people can't... bunch of fools i guess...lol?

I know you will stick to what you believe and that's fine... And I am glad you aren't in charge of paying anyone...lol

I went to Uni for what I consider to be the only reason to go to uni - because I wanted to study what I studied - not in order to make lots of money (and I haven't, yet).

S.Lythberg wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

I was gonna say it'll change.

Economic downturns tend to force people to think a little more about what's important rather than satisfying their insatiable need to be gratified right here, right now.

But, actually, I suspect it probably won't.

it will change for a few months, but people forget.

this isnt the first time easy credit has blown up our economy, and it won't bet he last

Yeah, hence the last line of my post. If there's one thing I could change in the world it would be our tendency to forget. If only we had genetic memory (in the sense of an ancestors experiential knowledge being recorded and passed down the generations in their dna).

Evolution has stopped for humans, the stupid breed while the smart succeed.  (lol, I made a funnies)

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

what will happen? Someone else will come in and take their places as the "big 3". No big deal.

In the airline industry the big 3 used to be TWA, Pan AM, and Eastern. All are gone now and guess what, the world didn't explode.

And those big three will be based in Japan!

So be it, if competition dictates that they build a better car that people will buy.

FEOS wrote:

usmarine wrote:

jord wrote:

Then that's clearly the best job in the world, or he's bullshitting you.

no.  i know what my friend made.  all he did was guide sheet metal under a stamp to knock out hummer parts.  45.08 per hour.

Not at all unusual. One of my best friends in high school...his parents worked for the (now closed) GM plant in Oklahoma City. His mom (with only a high school education and no technical training) made nearly $30/hr + benefits (in the 80s) for....wait for it...pulling masking paper off doors. That's it. $30/hr + benefits.

YGBSM.

and the sad truth is, she and the rest of them will defend their demands for such a high wage and benefits, as if what they did were actually important and a chimp could not do it for bananas.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

I wish scorpion was the king of the USA, under his rule I'd make $25/hr serving ice cream to people.

Actually, this how I'd do it - pay on jobs would work on a supply-and-demand basis - the higher the demand for that job the lower the pay. (i.e. all the easy/clean jobs would be high demand, but low pay, the shitty/hard/unclean jobs would be low demand, but high pay).

I think the person that cleans my toilet should be paid more than me. It's that simple.

Typical, reward mediocrity and punish achievement.. Nothing more needs to be said about this sort of ideology. The world of entitlement at its finest. Apparently you do not want a stable society to live in.

Harmor wrote:

I've never owned an American car.  Does not make me unpatriotic?

Susuki Forsa, Nissans 240SX, and finally a Toyota Corolla (1994 and runs well still after 14 years).

I do not buy American either, I am saying it is that railing of "patriotism" that the car companies leaned on t oget away with building anything they wanted and expected it to sell.

Last edited by lowing (2008-11-16 03:44:07)

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

So be it, if competition dictates that they build a better car that people will buy.

You don't understand that this means losing jobs in America, not just the short term, but for years - decades into the future.

And out sourcing leads to exactly the same problems, as competition from another source that can build it cheaper (which is NEVER equal to better) you lose the intellectual capital within your own country, pay for cheap labor, and you have a drop in quality and standards because it is made cheaper.

An open competition is a good thing lowing, but your own country taxes imported cheaper cars so that the set prices is comparable to your home made cars for a reason.

So that your home made cars are a viable alternative.

Why do you think it will be better cars, because the labor is cheaper?

Good points, however, if we are gunna live in a global economy and market then it is time that US industry starts to truely compete. I promise you if a person making 40 bucks an hour does not want their same job at 20 bucks an hour, there are people that will do it.

As a global consumer, I will buy the best product for the best price. I am not interested in saving some dipshit tape peelers job of 40 bucks an hour, by paying 35,000 for a fuckin car.

We would not loose jobs in America if America built a car worth a fuck. Build a good product and it will sell, this allows you to build more, even charge more, add plants and add employees.

Good post and I agree with you. However there has been zero worthwhile incentive for the US auto industry to develop a green technology car from your Govt.

There has been no push from any sector in the US to develop a car that is affordable and can run on anything other than petrol.

The electric car was killed off before it was given a chance, along with any developments that would have seen world class cars being made in the US. You had the technology, industry and resources. Everything except incentive and motivation.

This might be the kick up the ass you need, but I think it's too little too late now that the industry is dead\dying.