Go read about Venezuela under free-market economics.SgtHeihn wrote:
You gotta love a state run economy, look at all the prosperity that Venezuela is having!
http://www.tntech.edu/visions/spring_20 … kin_1.html
http://www.tntech.edu/visions/spring_20 … kin_1.html
There fixed . I was debating the difference between consumer choice and being a slave to the state. To trade with China is a choice. They aren't producing anything too unique from what I can see. They are a global competitor.Proponent of Responsible Capitalism wrote:
Ireland.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Right. That means every single one of my 50~ relatives back there all have to be ccp members (in fact only like 10% of them are). Outdated generalisation much? Doesnt really make sense that there are 70million CCP members nationwide whilst the so called 'middle class' is over 4x that.CameronPoe wrote:
You offered them as an example of how free markets can benefit a nation. China = show me your CCP membership card while I peg my currency at an artificially low level and throw 100,000 man-hours near-slave labour at the worlds biggest highway/dam/airport. The only people really benefiting in that country are a tiny clique middle class of CCP-card holders. It's a horrible example of free markets generating prosperity. Gigantic swathes of people live lives marginally better than those enjoyed by slaves. Beijing is almost a closed city - migrant workers from the country are shipped in in the morning and shipped out at night, like slaves. People live in the factories for which they work and their money must be sent back to the country to keep their parents and grandparents alive. A totalitarian government having its elite get fat off the hard work of drones be playing nice with the WTO is a poster for everything that sucks about free markets. A far more apt example of an embrace of free markets generating prosperity would have been Ireland.Kmarion wrote:
Globally they are. If the government is setting the price for all goods/services inside of their country... well that just sucks. But their economic gains have come from open trade. The world is still "free to choose".CameronPoe wrote:
Kmar - no offence but China != free market.
As for the ~600bn bailout, the significance shouldn't be underestimated. If you adjust it to PPP it may be equal to 1-2 trillion USD. While it is designed to stimulate domestic growth, the global outflow will be substantial.
http://business.theage.com.au/business/ … -5lpe.html
Looking at it on the surface the significance of the plan in the UK should much more. ($692bn) in a much smaller economy.maffiaw wrote:
As for the ~600bn bailout, the significance shouldn't be underestimated. If you adjust it to PPP it may be equal to 1-2 trillion USD. While it is designed to stimulate domestic growth, the global outflow will be substantial.
http://business.theage.com.au/business/ … -5lpe.html
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Yeah that does sound quite massive. Bravo UK!Kmarion wrote:
Looking at it on the surface the significance of the plan in the UK should much more. ($692bn) in a much smaller economy.maffiaw wrote:
As for the ~600bn bailout, the significance shouldn't be underestimated. If you adjust it to PPP it may be equal to 1-2 trillion USD. While it is designed to stimulate domestic growth, the global outflow will be substantial.
http://business.theage.com.au/business/ … -5lpe.html
Just telling you what I saw when I was there. Young kids with iPods, laptops and McDonalds on one corner. 80 year olds giving me rickshaw rides the next. Buses full of heavily tanned and filthy workers crammed into buses ready to be shipped back to the work camp. Peasants in the country desperately trying to flog me worthless trinkets. People washing their hair in rivers and fetching water in a bucket from the nearest watering hole. Being prevented from taking photos of certain buildings. Posters in Hong Kong showing photos of torture suffered by pro-democracy advocates. Jackbooted brigades of troops stomping around making their presence felt. One rule for tourists, another for the locals. Things are obviously better than under Mao and there is a real buzz of growth and energy but unfortunately many millions are being left behind. 280 million, if that is true, out of 1.3 billion isn't exactly something to jump for joy over.maffiaw wrote:
Right. That means every single one of my 50~ relatives back there all have to be ccp members (in fact only like 10% of them are). Outdated generalisation much? Doesnt really make sense that there are 70million CCP members nationwide whilst the so called 'middle class' is over 4x that.
As for the ~600bn bailout, the significance shouldn't be underestimated. If you adjust it to PPP it may be equal to 1-2 trillion USD. While it is designed to stimulate domestic growth, the global outflow will be substantial.
http://business.theage.com.au/business/ … -5lpe.html
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-11-10 13:49:31)
Yea China's coming in a bit late.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
No doubt, the economic gap has widened massively over past decade and a bit. That is one of key probs the government has to try to fix if it has any hope of staying in power in the long run. I can't really say much about activists or anything, but I never felt anything uneasy from the few guards walking around Tiananmen, government buildings etc. AFAIK, normal people don't really feel threatened either. I actually didnt see any in residential areas, HK, or further inland on the mainland.CameronPoe wrote:
Just telling you what I saw when I was there. Young kids with iPods, laptops and McDonalds on one corner. 80 year olds giving me rickshaw rides the next. Buses full of heavily tanned and filthy workers crammed into buses ready to be shipped back to the work camp. Peasants in the country desperately trying to flog me worthless trinkets. People washing their hair in rivers and fetching water in a bucket from the nearest watering hole. Being prevented from taking photos of certain buildings. Posters in Hong Kong showing photos of torture suffered by pro-democracy advocates. Jackbooted brigades of troops stomping around making their presence felt. One rule for tourists, another for the locals. Things are obviously better than under Mao and there is a real buzz of growth and energy but unfortunately many millions are being left behind. 280 million, if that is true, out of 1.3 billion isn't exactly something to jump for joy over.maffiaw wrote:
Right. That means every single one of my 50~ relatives back there all have to be ccp members (in fact only like 10% of them are). Outdated generalisation much? Doesnt really make sense that there are 70million CCP members nationwide whilst the so called 'middle class' is over 4x that.
As for the ~600bn bailout, the significance shouldn't be underestimated. If you adjust it to PPP it may be equal to 1-2 trillion USD. While it is designed to stimulate domestic growth, the global outflow will be substantial.
http://business.theage.com.au/business/ … -5lpe.html
Wow, you got me.PureFodder wrote:
Go read about Venezuela under free-market economics.SgtHeihn wrote:
You gotta love a state run economy, look at all the prosperity that Venezuela is having!
http://www.tntech.edu/visions/spring_20 … kin_1.html
You are bashing a free market, why don't you give us a example of a state run that is working.
A free market economy encourages growth and innovation. A state run encourages the cronies to doctor books to say they are good.
Why don't you stop being the one to point out problems and maybe suggest some answers.
he cantSgtHeihn wrote:
Why don't you stop being the one to point out problems and maybe suggest some answers.
Typical, doesn't that remind you of fuckers yelling gas gas gas for the shits and giggles.usmarine wrote:
he cantSgtHeihn wrote:
Why don't you stop being the one to point out problems and maybe suggest some answers.
Unfortunately... but that's why it's about time to... reorganize things.Kmarion wrote:
What kind of market do you have? Or even China? Germany? Japan? Norway? Australia? Ireland? It seems corporate welfare knows no borders.PureFodder wrote:
Corporate welfare at its most blatant.
The worst bit is that after reading this lots of people will still maintain that the US has a free market aconomy.
/copy cats
"I shall blow up your buildings a little more and be less open with you than I was before. I wish we all truly wanted to change this cesspool we live in." -- Thomas Rainsborough
Actually, the British bank bailout prohibited the banks from using the money to pay dividends. They smart, we dumb.Kmarion wrote:
What kind of market do you have? Or even China? Germany? Japan? Norway? Australia? Ireland? It seems corporate welfare knows no borders.PureFodder wrote:
Corporate welfare at its most blatant.
The worst bit is that after reading this lots of people will still maintain that the US has a free market aconomy.
/copy cats
Congratulations, you're an idiot.SgtHeihn wrote:
Wow, you got me.PureFodder wrote:
Go read about Venezuela under free-market economics.SgtHeihn wrote:
You gotta love a state run economy, look at all the prosperity that Venezuela is having!
http://www.tntech.edu/visions/spring_20 … kin_1.html
You are bashing a free market, why don't you give us a example of a state run that is working.
A free market economy encourages growth and innovation. A state run encourages the cronies to doctor books to say they are good.
Why don't you stop being the one to point out problems and maybe suggest some answers.
Capitalism =/= free markets.
Free markets are one type of extremist capitalism that is so poorly thought out that no country in the entire world has ever been stupid enough to try it. As countries approach free-market economics, typically not voluntarily, they tend to fall appart.
The US/UK/France/everyone else does not have and never will have a free market economy. They tend to have mixed economies that have some market sectors, but allow a strong state sector that actively interferes with the economy and completely runs certain aspects of it. As such, massive government interference in the economy that we are now seeing should be the utterly expected thing to happen. People use 'free markets' to attack things like minimum wages, social policies and protections, labour laws etc because they aren't free market. The notion being that free market economics is some good thing to aim for rather than the reality that it is a bad thing to be avoided. As the rest of the economy isn't free market either, never will be and will constantly rely on significant state intervention and protections, such a stance makes little sense.
And Ireland hasn't bailed anyone out yet. They just made a 'promise' to prevent international predators like Santander from buying up Irish banks.san4 wrote:
Actually, the British bank bailout prohibited the banks from using the money to pay dividends. They smart, we dumb.Kmarion wrote:
What kind of market do you have? Or even China? Germany? Japan? Norway? Australia? Ireland? It seems corporate welfare knows no borders.PureFodder wrote:
Corporate welfare at its most blatant.
The worst bit is that after reading this lots of people will still maintain that the US has a free market aconomy.
/copy cats
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-11-11 03:38:08)
What I hate is the fact the people who have been greedy and stupid get free money, those who were smart and sensible get nothing.Aussiereaper wrote:
What I also hate is the fact that not all banks will be getting help from the bailout, only the larger groups.
Go Free Market!
Fuck Israel
What I hate is the fact that people who are old friends of the treasury secretary get free money, those who are not get nothing.Dilbert_X wrote:
What I hate is the fact the people who have been greedy and stupid get free money, those who were smart and sensible get nothing.Aussiereaper wrote:
What I also hate is the fact that not all banks will be getting help from the bailout, only the larger groups.
Go Free Market!
The US is experiencing an unavoidable side-effect of a centrally-planned economy: corruption.