unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,060|7076|PNW

Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

By Karen McMahan

November 04, 2008

RALEIGH — Democrats in the U.S. House have been conducting hearings on proposals to confiscate workers’ personal retirement accounts — including 401(k)s and IRAs — and convert them to accounts managed by the Social Security Administration.

Triggered by the financial crisis the past two months, the hearings reportedly were meant to stem losses incurred by many workers and retirees whose 401(k) and IRA balances have been shrinking rapidly.

The testimony of Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, in hearings Oct. 7 drew the most attention and criticism. Testifying for the House Committee on Education and Labor, Ghilarducci proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers’ retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration.

Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Education and Labor, in prepared remarks for the hearing on “The Impact of the Financial Crisis on Workers’ Retirement Security,” blamed Wall Street for the financial crisis and said his committee will “strengthen and protect Americans’ 401(k)s, pensions, and other retirement plans” and the “Democratic Congress will continue to conduct this much-needed oversight on behalf of the American people.”

Currently, 401(k) plans allow Americans to invest pretax money and their employers match up to a defined percentage, which not only increases workers’ retirement savings but also reduces their annual income tax. The balances are fully inheritable, subject to income tax, meaning workers pass on their wealth to their heirs, unlike Social Security. Even when they leave an employer and go to one that doesn’t offer a 401(k) or pension, workers can transfer their balances to a qualified IRA.

Mandating Equality

Ghilarducci’s plan first appeared in a paper for the Economic Policy Institute: Agenda for Shared Prosperity on Nov. 20, 2007, in which she said GRAs will rescue the flawed American retirement income system (www.sharedprosperity.org/bp204/bp204.pdf).

The current retirement system, Ghilarducci said, “exacerbates income and wealth inequalities” because tax breaks for voluntary retirement accounts are “skewed to the wealthy because it is easier for them to save, and because they receive bigger tax breaks when they do.”

Lauding GRAs as a way to effectively increase retirement savings, Ghilarducci wrote that savings incentives are unequal for rich and poor families because tax deferrals “provide a much larger ‘carrot’ to wealthy families than to middle-class families — and none whatsoever for families too poor to owe taxes.”

GRAs would guarantee a fixed 3 percent annual rate of return, although later in her article Ghilarducci explained that participants would not “earn a 3% real return in perpetuity.” In place of tax breaks workers now receive for contributions and thus a lower tax rate, workers would receive $600 annually from the government, inflation-adjusted. For low-income workers whose annual contributions are less than $600, the government would deposit whatever amount it would take to equal the minimum $600 for all participants.

In a radio interview with Kirby Wilbur in Seattle on Oct. 27, 2008, Ghilarducci explained that her proposal doesn’t eliminate the tax breaks, rather, “I’m just rearranging the tax breaks that are available now for 401(k)s and spreading — spreading the wealth.”

All workers would have 5 percent of their annual pay deducted from their paychecks and deposited to the GRA. They would still be paying Social Security and Medicare taxes, as would the employers. The GRA contribution would be shared equally by the worker and the employee. Employers no longer would be able to write off their contributions. Any capital gains would be taxable year-on-year.

Analysts point to another disturbing part of the plan. With a GRA, workers could bequeath only half of their account balances to their heirs, unlike full balances from existing 401(k) and IRA accounts. For workers who die after retiring, they could bequeath just their own contributions plus the interest but minus any benefits received and minus the employer contributions.

Another justification for Ghilarducci’s plan is to eliminate investment risk. In her testimony, Ghilarducci said, “humans often lack the foresight, discipline, and investing skills required to sustain a savings plan.” She cited the 2004 HSBC global survey on the Future of Retirement, in which she claimed that “a third of Americans wanted the government to force them to save more for retirement.”

What the survey actually reported was that 33 percent of Americans wanted the government to “enforce additional private savings,” a vastly different meaning than mandatory government-run savings. Of the four potential sources of retirement support, which were government, employer, family, and self, the majority of Americans said “self” was the most important contributor, followed by “government.” When broken out by family income, low-income U.S. households said the “government” was the most important retirement support, whereas high-income families ranked “government” last and “self” first (www.hsbc.com/retirement).

On Oct. 22, The Wall Street Journal reported that the Argentinean government had seized all private pension and retirement accounts to fund government programs and to address a ballooning deficit. Fearing an economic collapse, foreign investors quickly pulled out, forcing the Argentinean stock market to shut down several times. More than 10 years ago, nationalization of private savings sent Argentina’s economy into a long-term downward spiral.

Income and Wealth Redistribution

The majority of witness testimony during recent hearings before the House Committee on Education and Labor showed that congressional Democrats intend to address income and wealth inequality through redistribution.

On July 31, 2008, Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, testified before the subcommittee on workforce protections that “from the standpoint of equal treatment of people with different incomes, there is a fundamental flaw” in tax code incentives because they are “provided in the form of deductions, exemptions, and exclusions rather than in the form of refundable tax credits.”

Even people who don’t pay taxes should get money from the government, paid for by higher-income Americans, he said. “There is no obvious reason why lower-income taxpayers or people who do not file income taxes should get smaller incentives (or no tax incentives at all),” Greenstein said.

“Moving to refundable tax credits for promoting socially worthwhile activities would be an important step toward enhancing progressivity in the tax code in a way that would improve economic efficiency and performance at the same time,” Greenstein said, and “reducing barriers to labor organizing, preserving the real value of the minimum wage, and the other workforce security concerns . . . would contribute to an economy with less glaring and sharply widening inequality.”

When asked whether committee members seriously were considering Ghilarducci’s proposal for GSAs, Aaron Albright, press secretary for the Committee on Education and Labor, said Miller and other members were listening to all ideas.

Miller’s biggest priority has been on legislation aimed at greater transparency in 401(k)s and other retirement plan administration, specifically regarding fees, Albright said, and he sent a link to a Fox News interview of Miller on Oct. 24, 2008, to show that the congressman had not made a decision.

After repeated questions asked by Neil Cavuto of Fox News, Miller said he would not be in favor of “killing the 401(k)” or of “killing the tax advantages for 401(k)s.”

Arguing against liberal prescriptions, William Beach, director of the Center for Data Analysis at the Heritage Foundation, testified on Oct. 24 that the “roots of the current crisis are firmly planted in public policy mistakes” by the Federal Reserve and Congress. He cautioned Congress against raising taxes, increasing burdensome regulations, or withdrawing from international product or capital markets. “Congress can ill afford to repeat the awesome errors of its predecessor in the early days of the Great Depression,” Beach said.

Instead, Beach said, Congress could best address the financial crisis by making the tax reductions of 2001 and 2003 permanent, stopping dependence on demand-side stimulus, lowering the corporate profits tax, and reducing or eliminating taxes on capital gains and dividends.

Testifying before the same committee in early October, Jerry Bramlett, president and CEO of BenefitStreet, Inc., an independent 401(k) plan administrator, said one of the best ways to ensure retirement security would be to have the U.S. Department of Labor develop educational materials for workers so they could make better investment decisions, not exchange equity investments in retirement accounts for Treasury bills, as proposed in the GSAs.

Should Sen. Barack Obama win the presidency, congressional Democrats might have stronger support for their “spreading the wealth” agenda. On Oct. 27, the American Thinker posted a video of an interview with Obama on public radio station WBEZ-FM from 2001.

In the interview, Obama said, “The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.” The Constitution says only what “the states can’t do to you. Says what the Federal government can’t do to you,” and Obama added that the Warren Court wasn’t that radical.

Although in 2001 Obama said he was not “optimistic about bringing major redistributive change through the courts,” as president, he would likely have the opportunity to appoint one or more Supreme Court justices.

“The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused that I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change,” Obama said.

Karen McMahan is a contributing editor of Carolina Journal.
http://www.carolinajournal.com/articles … ml?id=5081
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6710|North Carolina
Now this is something I'm definitely against...  and if the Democrats do this, you can look forward to a Republican Revolution in 2010.

Oooo  911 karma...  I feel like Guiliani now...
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6847|Texas - Bigger than France
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6750|The Land of Scott Walker
Unbelievable ...
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6853|San Diego, CA, USA

Pug wrote:

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=113530

my opinion
+1 for ya Pug.  Yeah we discussed it then.  Why is anyone surprised?

Its Obamunism I tell you.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,060|7076|PNW

I can't think of every keyword to run a search by, but I guess I'll have to shrug off grumptacular "Simpsons did it" replies. But to be honest, I've faced worse.

To add something else:

“The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused that I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change,” Obama said.
The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was that the emerging nanny state took self-reliant gumption away from some of the groups of people they meant to reduce to dependent sheep 'protect,' and now some people actually believe that 'spreading the wealth' around like so much CheezWiz on a sandwich is a practical solution that won't bother people who go out of their way to earn more for themselves in the slightest.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-11-09 03:14:54)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6979|Canberra, AUS
That's one idea that needs to go into the black hole of a committee and never come out.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6970|NT, like Mick Dundee

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I can't think of every keyword to run a search by, but I guess I'll have to shrug off grumptacular "Simpsons did it" replies. But to be honest, I've faced worse.

To add something else:

“The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused that I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change,” Obama said.
The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was that the emerging nanny state took self-reliant gumption away from some of the groups of people they meant to reduce to dependent sheep 'protect,' and now some people actually believe that 'spreading the wealth' around like so much CheezWiz on a sandwich is a practical solution that won't bother people who go out of their way to earn more for themselves in the slightest.
UN13 m8...

It's a case of self perpetuating existence. If the Civil Rights movement's leaders/managers/profiteers actually accomplished their goals they'd be out of a job.

So where's the positive incentive for them to accomplish their goals?
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6995|Tampa Bay Florida
I like it.  Spread that wealth baby.   oooooooooooooooooooooooo ya spread it all over my body.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6750|The Land of Scott Walker

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was that the emerging nanny state took self-reliant gumption away from some of the groups of people they meant to reduce to dependent sheep 'protect,' and now some people actually believe that 'spreading the wealth' around like so much CheezWiz on a sandwich is a practical solution that won't bother people who go out of their way to earn more for themselves in the slightest.
+1
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6956|USA
it is starting already and Obama has not even took office yet. But hey you guys love socialism, right.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6853|San Diego, CA, USA
No.

Lets see how long this honeymoon period lasts for Obama.  When overnight people loose 40% of their 401k's value only to get 3% (less than inflation), on the remaining amount lets see how much they like him then.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,060|7076|PNW

Flecco wrote:

UN13 m8...

It's a case of self perpetuating existence. If the Civil Rights movement's leaders/managers/profiteers actually accomplished their goals they'd be out of a job.

So where's the positive incentive for them to accomplish their goals?
I can't disagree there. I think some get into it with the best intentions, but there's too many people who benefit from a dependent culture.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Flecco wrote:

UN13 m8...

It's a case of self perpetuating existence. If the Civil Rights movement's leaders/managers/profiteers actually accomplished their goals they'd be out of a job.

So where's the positive incentive for them to accomplish their goals?
I can't disagree there. I think some get into it with the best intentions, but there's too many people who benefit from a dependent culture.
Oh God forbid you imply that organizations like that have anything but altruistic motives. You'll be lambasted by the lefties here...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6797|Connecticut
Fucking socialist pigs.
Malloy must go
CC-Marley
Member
+407|7133
Ear-muffs! Naanaaanaaa I'm not listening.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6853|San Diego, CA, USA
Ok so is this what they are purposing:

1.  They create a savings account administered by the Social Security Administration in our name.
2.  They make a withdrawl from our 401k accounts, taking a 40% penalty for early withdrawl.
3.  The place the remaining money in this savings account that'll now draw 3% interest while inflation is 5+% atm.
4.  We will then be forced to put 5% of our income into this account.
5.  We'll be able to withdraw the money from the account when we are 65.


Did I get that all correct?
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7019|US
Wow, I present to you what is wrong with progressive thought.  Enter exibit A:

Greenstein wrote:

Even people who don’t pay taxes should get money from the government, paid for by higher-income Americans
So, people who contribute nothing monetarily to the government are OWED money from it?  Of course, people who do contribute to the government are supposed to be forced to give money away to those who don't contribute.
WTF?!

Actually, this does sound very similar to what is practiced under communist rule. 
Of course stating that makes me a partisan idiot and against all that is righteous about the DNC's plans...right?
(BTW, my name is not "Joe")

Not to mention the horrible investment return of those so called GRAs.
Are they trying to kill our economy?

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2008-11-09 19:05:11)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6956|USA
Funny how most of the liberal/socialist Obamamaniacs are steering clear from this thread.
SealXo
Member
+309|6840
i say instead of the rich paying higher taxes they spend that money on a private military to protect their shit.
Mr.Dooomed
Find your center.
+752|6633

Is this a joke?
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6885|the dank(super) side of Oregon
furious conservative circle jerk?  This was discussed in some house committee and now it's cast-in-stone policy?  If the democrats have any interest in retaining their control they'll drift to the center and stay there for as long as possible. 

The tax breaks given to wealthy people, who can already afford retirement saving, are disproportionate.  This is an absurd way of fixing the problem.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6853|San Diego, CA, USA
Umm...from my understanding this is from the Head of the committee?  If that is so and they since they have a huge majority in both houses and there's a Democrat that's the president this has a very good chance to be made into law.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

RAIMIUS wrote:

Wow, I present to you what is wrong with progressive thought.  Enter exibit A:

Greenstein wrote:

Even people who don’t pay taxes should get money from the government, paid for by higher-income Americans
So, people who contribute nothing monetarily to the government are OWED money from it?  Of course, people who do contribute to the government are supposed to be forced to give money away to those who don't contribute.
WTF?!

Actually, this does sound very similar to what is practiced under communist rule. 
Of course stating that makes me a partisan idiot and against all that is righteous about the DNC's plans...right?
(BTW, my name is not "Joe")

Not to mention the horrible investment return of those so called GRAs.
Are they trying to kill our economy?
C'mon, now. Government-enforced wealth redistribution is not what The Obama (peace be upon him) was talking about--all the lefties here said so. He was talking about Change. Change we can Hope for.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7021

FEOS wrote:

RAIMIUS wrote:

Wow, I present to you what is wrong with progressive thought.  Enter exibit A:

Greenstein wrote:

Even people who don’t pay taxes should get money from the government, paid for by higher-income Americans
So, people who contribute nothing monetarily to the government are OWED money from it?  Of course, people who do contribute to the government are supposed to be forced to give money away to those who don't contribute.
WTF?!

Actually, this does sound very similar to what is practiced under communist rule. 
Of course stating that makes me a partisan idiot and against all that is righteous about the DNC's plans...right?
(BTW, my name is not "Joe")

Not to mention the horrible investment return of those so called GRAs.
Are they trying to kill our economy?
C'mon, now. Government-enforced wealth redistribution is not what The Obama (peace be upon him) was talking about--all the lefties here said so. He was talking about Change. Change we can Hope for.
you have angered the messiah... i hope he has mercy on your soul...?
Love is the answer

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