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Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|5725|Belgium
Family Forced to Sell Home and Leave Country to Get Healthcare

“My husband, Bruce, and I never were able to obtain medical insurance that would cover my condition, a devastating and disabling genetic disease called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome—so we are having one massive estate sale, selling our home, and moving to Belgium, where I can get the care I need at a cost we can afford explains Barbara Calder of Colorado Springs, Colo.”

“Bruce had received insurance through his job, but they refused to cover me, saying that the plan didn’t cover genetic counseling. The insurance company eventually went broke, saying they hadn’t anticipated people getting older or using the insurance they had paid for.”

“Every joint in my body is failing save my left hip. I have to tape my toes together at night when even the pressure of a blanket can cause them to dislocate. I live in constant pain, and get only partial relief with ibuprofen, the only medication I can afford without health insurance.”

“There are very few doctors in this country who understand my condition, and people who suffer from this disease usually go undiagnosed and eventually lose their insurance. My mother died of the same condition, though also undiagnosed at age 40, my 19-year-old daughter developed symptoms at age 15, and my 22- year-old son is beginning to experience problems.”

“I want health insurance companies to be abolished, because they aren't in the business to care for the sick. Their main function is to make profits, and the sick just get in their way. Imagine every person paying a percentage of their income into health services that would help all Americans? That is how many European Union (EU) countries do it,” Calder continued. “Most people we met in the EU on our trip last week were proud to pay into such a system, because it made their country healthier and better for all who lived there.”
So, is it really that bad, that people are forced to leave the country?
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|5765|US
Apparently...
Although that case is an extreme example.  Genetic conditions, at the edge of known medicine can get expensive.

Health care is usually good, but not everyone has access.  (Although some Americans can afford it, but chose not to pay for insurance.)
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|5712|USA
The most pressure is on seniors who have already retired and get pensions and the rising healthcare cost exceeds their budget.

I think its their fault for getting old.
topal63
. . .
+533|5768
Yes, as a system it is very bad. All systems have to be paid for. All systems when broken down have a pragmatic analytic economic component whether or not people would rather focus on their own emotional beliefs about that system. Per capita our spending involves: drug companies, insurance companies, Medicare and Medicaid, administration, technology, doctors, assistants, diagnostic assistants, registered nurses, LPNs, for the most part; and per capita we spend more than any other nation.

The system is flawed to the core. Preventative health care is barely part of the cost saving equation in America. But, profit incentives are a major component of why we pay so much. Basic care, am I not equivocating in the least, can be administered by non-doctors (i.e. physicians assistants and professional registered nurses). The structure prevents necessary cost-effective basic health-care from becoming a reality. Lack of preventative incentives prevent further savings. Drug co. profits, insurance co. profits, tax-structures for health care facilities, administration, inefficient policies and the spending associated with those policies; all contribute to our per capita cost spiraling up and out of control.

Last edited by topal63 (2008-10-30 12:13:18)

HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|5048
I can't help but wonder if the number of people who leave the US for need of health care is greater or less than the number of people who come here because they've been forced into long waiting lines and are sick to death of it.  Figuratively and literally.
Kaosdad
Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
+201|5729|Broadlands, VA
Here's the deal.

On the surface a large part of the problem is the insurance company you get stuck with.  KaosMom & I have been with several insurance companies - some great - some terrible.  If you are unlucky enough to have to change jobs and your significant other has a problem, like, oh, say pregnency, it might not be covered.  MOST insurance companies will accept a certificate from the previous company that outlines treatments to date and states that the patient is healthy.  That's on the surface.

Next layer down is the litigation.  The reason that a cardiac med for humans is 100x more expensive than the exact same med for a hog is that a hog can't sue.  The outragous fees that doctors & hospitals charge is to cover mal-practice insurance.

Next layer down, as previously pointed out, is profit.  The flip side of an insurance company is the investment side.  They take your premiums and invest them in the market.  The interest & dividends they make on those investments is pure profit if they do not pay out claims.  If they pay out claims, then they reduce their profit.  Note:  if you go for a yearly checkup that the doctor charges $450 for, and your co-pay is only $20, that's a $430 claim the insurance company paied out.

So, the insurance companies are dis-incented to provide preventitive care.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5461|'Murka

A single instance of something does not describe the state of affairs in a country with a population roughly 150 million times the size of the sample set.

So...no. It's not.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
SealXo
Member
+309|5586
lol, obama thinks canada has great healthcare


LOL
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|5766
stop ridiculous lawsuits... control the costs when possible for medicine... (i realize research costs money)
my friend is in med school and is worried about the 100k a year he will have to pay for malpractice insurance...

It comes down to accountabilty... like everything else... It would be a lot easier to swallow universal health care if the pathetic govt actually did it correctly with accountability... 

the senate couldn't run a restaurant... the time has come for accountability...
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archiv … staurants/
Love is the answer
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|5725|Belgium

FEOS wrote:

A single instance of something does not describe the state of affairs in a country with a population roughly 150 million times the size of the sample set.

So...no. It's not.
I know. One should make a movie of all the problems. Oh wait, someone did.
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|5725|Belgium

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

stop ridiculous lawsuits... control the costs when possible for medicine... (i realize research costs money)
my friend is in med school and is worried about the 100k a year he will have to pay for malpractice insurance...

It comes down to accountabilty... like everything else... It would be a lot easier to swallow universal health care if the pathetic govt actually did it correctly with accountability... 

the senate couldn't run a restaurant... the time has come for accountability...
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archiv … staurants/
Seeing the problems with SS in my country, I don't think it would be easy to implement such system in yours which is xxx times larger.
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|5725|Belgium

Kaosdad wrote:

Here's the deal.

On the surface a large part of the problem is the insurance company you get stuck with.  KaosMom & I have been with several insurance companies - some great - some terrible.  If you are unlucky enough to have to change jobs and your significant other has a problem, like, oh, say pregnency, it might not be covered.  MOST insurance companies will accept a certificate from the previous company that outlines treatments to date and states that the patient is healthy.  That's on the surface.
Same here. You can either choose an insurance co. and stick with it, in that case you're insured yourself (as I did). Or as an employee you can get insurance with the insurance co. your boss works with, in which case you could end up having a problem switching jobs. 

Kaosdad wrote:

Next layer down is the litigation.  The reason that a cardiac med for humans is 100x more expensive than the exact same med for a hog is that a hog can't sue.  The outragous fees that doctors & hospitals charge is to cover mal-practice insurance.
Correct. get rid of the 'no cure no pay' system and the punitive damages.

I've been associated with an American lawfirm for some years, and I've heard some pretty stories about how rich these guys were. Private planes, fancy hotels come to my mind.

Kaosdad wrote:

Next layer down, as previously pointed out, is profit.  The flip side of an insurance company is the investment side.  They take your premiums and invest them in the market.  The interest & dividends they make on those investments is pure profit if they do not pay out claims.  If they pay out claims, then they reduce their profit.  Note:  if you go for a yearly checkup that the doctor charges $450 for, and your co-pay is only $20, that's a $430 claim the insurance company paied out.

So, the insurance companies are dis-incented to provide preventitive care.
Same here. No chance in hell to get insurance with a known disease. But OTOH, once you're in, they pay out whatever the hospital charges, thanks to our system: while being private organisations and therefor keen to making a profit, hospitals are under strict regulation from the Government who pays for the basic care. So the bills of a hospital are never questioned.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5461|'Murka

Pierre wrote:

FEOS wrote:

A single instance of something does not describe the state of affairs in a country with a population roughly 150 million times the size of the sample set.

So...no. It's not.
I know. One should make a movie of all the problems. Oh wait, someone did.
Yeah. Michael Moore. The very epitome of rational thought on so many topics.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5455|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Pierre wrote:

FEOS wrote:

A single instance of something does not describe the state of affairs in a country with a population roughly 150 million times the size of the sample set.

So...no. It's not.
I know. One should make a movie of all the problems. Oh wait, someone did.
Yeah. Michael Moore. The very epitome of rational thought on so many topics.
Sicko was great until he tried to act like Cuba had good healthcare.  lol
Freke1
I play at night... mostly
+47|5597|the best galaxy
Cubans live longer and have a lower infant mortality rate.

I think all americans should watch "Sicko" at least 10 times until they get it.
Remember high school and university education is also free here in Europe.

"Sicko" really nails my thoughts perfectly.

Remember if You US citizens get sick and don't have insurence - GO TO CUBA

The good people of US deserve better than what is shown in Sicko FFS.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/7d11696e2ffd4edeff06466095e98b0fab37462c.png
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|5537|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Freke1 wrote:

Cubans live longer and have a lower infant mortality rate.

I think all americans should watch "Sicko" at least 10 times until they get it.
Remember high school and university education is also free here in Europe.

"Sicko" really nails my thoughts perfectly.

Remember if You US citizens get sick and don't have insurence - GO TO CUBA

The good people of US deserve better than what is shown in Sicko FFS.
You are going to try and say a Micheal Moore movie give good points? HE MAKES HIS FACTS UP!
jord
Member
+2,382|5728|The North, beyond the wall.

Freke1 wrote:

Cubans live longer and have a lower infant mortality rate.

I think all americans should watch "Sicko" at least 10 times until they get it.
Remember high school and university education is also free here in Europe.

"Sicko" really nails my thoughts perfectly.

Remember if You US citizens get sick and don't have insurence - GO TO CUBA

The good people of US deserve better than what is shown in Sicko FFS.
University isn't free here...
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|5631|SE London

jord wrote:

Freke1 wrote:

Cubans live longer and have a lower infant mortality rate.

I think all americans should watch "Sicko" at least 10 times until they get it.
Remember high school and university education is also free here in Europe.

"Sicko" really nails my thoughts perfectly.

Remember if You US citizens get sick and don't have insurence - GO TO CUBA

The good people of US deserve better than what is shown in Sicko FFS.
University isn't free here...
It is if you're Scottish. Devolution FTL!

If not, it is massively subsidised (~£1000/year tuition instead of ~£9000/year).
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5812

way too many stupid kids in this section, let alone this thread, to even begin.

Last edited by usmarine (2009-01-02 14:12:24)

Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|5521

Bertster7 wrote:

jord wrote:

Freke1 wrote:

Cubans live longer and have a lower infant mortality rate.

I think all americans should watch "Sicko" at least 10 times until they get it.
Remember high school and university education is also free here in Europe.

"Sicko" really nails my thoughts perfectly.

Remember if You US citizens get sick and don't have insurence - GO TO CUBA

The good people of US deserve better than what is shown in Sicko FFS.
University isn't free here...
It is if you're Scottish. Devolution FTL!

If not, it is massively subsidised (~£1000/year tuition instead of ~£9000/year).
I don't give a fuck what anyone says, University is farrrr from free- it's a lie, no covering that up. Even the swine at the very bottom of the income ladder with all of their government grants and freebies still end up in a pretty healthy chunk of debt at the end of the 3/4 years- lemme know when we actually reach that socialist zenith where the government will entirely pay for me to study and party for 3 years at the taxpayer's expense.

And, haha, I knew Sicko would be mentioned before I even clicked on this thread. I think Sicko has a few thought-worthy segments, but yes the vast majority of it is bias and self-interested... the Cuba part being one. I can't really say that Moore twisted the view of European healthcare when he came over here and had a look around. Everything he said and showed about UK healthcare is pretty much on the mark, unless you want to hear about pensioners complaining because they have to queue for 15 minutes to get their freebie flu immunisation...

Last edited by Uzique (2009-01-02 14:14:30)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|5631|SE London

Uzique wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

jord wrote:


University isn't free here...
It is if you're Scottish. Devolution FTL!

If not, it is massively subsidised (~£1000/year tuition instead of ~£9000/year).
I don't give a fuck what anyone says, University is farrrr from free- it's a lie, no covering that up. Even the swine at the very bottom of the income ladder with all of their government grants and freebies still end up in a pretty healthy chunk of debt at the end of the 3/4 years- lemme know when we actually reach that socialist zenith where the government will entirely pay for me to study and party for 3 years at the taxpayer's expense.
Why should the government have to pay your living costs while studying? That's all the student loan is there to cover. If you don't want to take out the loan - which is at much better rates than you'd find elsewhere, then you can cover it some other way. I know loads of people who either haven't taken out their student loan, or who have put the loan money into high interest accounts to actually make a profit on their borrowing.

I don't think the government should: "entirely pay for me to study and party for 3 years". Tuition fees are low enough to be affordable and are heavily subsidised - I just object to the fact the Scots get it for free (just like I object to the Welsh getting free NHS prescriptions).
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|5521

Bertster7 wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


It is if you're Scottish. Devolution FTL!

If not, it is massively subsidised (~£1000/year tuition instead of ~£9000/year).
I don't give a fuck what anyone says, University is farrrr from free- it's a lie, no covering that up. Even the swine at the very bottom of the income ladder with all of their government grants and freebies still end up in a pretty healthy chunk of debt at the end of the 3/4 years- lemme know when we actually reach that socialist zenith where the government will entirely pay for me to study and party for 3 years at the taxpayer's expense.
Why should the government have to pay your living costs while studying? That's all the student loan is there to cover. If you don't want to take out the loan - which is at much better rates than you'd find elsewhere, then you can cover it some other way. I know loads of people who either haven't taken out their student loan, or who have put the loan money into high interest accounts to actually make a profit on their borrowing.

I don't think the government should: "entirely pay for me to study and party for 3 years". Tuition fees are low enough to be affordable and are heavily subsidised - I just object to the fact the Scots get it for free (just like I object to the Welsh getting free NHS prescriptions).
They shouldn't, duh. That's why I'm saying it's not free. /boggle.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|5537|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
Well you have to remember. When Micheal Moore hears about ONE person getting something free, that means EVERYONE gets it free. Like I said before, he makes his "facts" up and then tries to jam them down your throat as undeniable truth. His films are just another form of yellow journalism.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|5631|SE London

Uzique wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Uzique wrote:


I don't give a fuck what anyone says, University is farrrr from free- it's a lie, no covering that up. Even the swine at the very bottom of the income ladder with all of their government grants and freebies still end up in a pretty healthy chunk of debt at the end of the 3/4 years- lemme know when we actually reach that socialist zenith where the government will entirely pay for me to study and party for 3 years at the taxpayer's expense.
Why should the government have to pay your living costs while studying? That's all the student loan is there to cover. If you don't want to take out the loan - which is at much better rates than you'd find elsewhere, then you can cover it some other way. I know loads of people who either haven't taken out their student loan, or who have put the loan money into high interest accounts to actually make a profit on their borrowing.

I don't think the government should: "entirely pay for me to study and party for 3 years". Tuition fees are low enough to be affordable and are heavily subsidised - I just object to the fact the Scots get it for free (just like I object to the Welsh getting free NHS prescriptions).
They shouldn't, duh. That's why I'm saying it's not free. /boggle.
And I'm saying student loans and student debt have nothing to do with university being free whatsoever. School is free, yet you don't get your living costs paid by the government whilst you're at school (yes your parents will get a little bit of child support, but that's minor).

You don't seem to have much of a grasp of what free education actually is.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|5631|SE London

SgtHeihn wrote:

Well you have to remember. When Micheal Moore hears about ONE person getting something free, that means EVERYONE gets it free.
Example?

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