Poll

Who will come out on top in the Republican Civil War?

The Theo-Cons (Huckabee, Romney, Palin supporters)22%22% - 6
The Corporate Cons (Gulianni, Forbes supporters)22%22% - 6
The Neo-Cons (Cheney, McCain, Bush supporters)3%3% - 1
The Paranoid Fringe ("Patriot" Groups, "Paul-bots")14%14% - 4
Moderate Reformers37%37% - 10
Total: 27
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6382|Kyiv, Ukraine
About 30 years ago or so, the Republican party reformed itself a bit to take the 1980 election.  Basically, the far right crazies (evangelicals and tax-dodging militia) were brought into the fold to expand the base into something electable.  The plutocrats in charge though managed to keep the reins for the most part, getting their corporate agenda effectively passed by ensuring the religious get to the polls using non-starter issues like abortion, gambling, and later gay marriage.

Now that they've imploded, the finger pointing has begun.  The neo-cons under Bush were "too liberal", Sarah Palin VP pick was either a "stroke of genius" or "the result of a mild stroke", the religious base was never given what they wanted and are disenchanted.  Pundits advocating any of these sides have already come out with a purge list for "Vichy Republicans" like Powell.  So the bets are on who will come out on top to wrest control of the party now that the Corporate Cons have failed to deliver...or delivered failure depending on how you see it.

So, in no particular order:

The Theo-cons - Convinced that the country's ills are the result of moral decay, these guys have been around in one form or another since at least 4000 bc Egypt and can be found in almost every corner of the planet today.  The American version has been loyal foot soldiers for years, acting as a strong activist base for their corporate party masters in getting their followers lined up at the polls.  They were promised paradise...prayer time mandated in every school, no more abortions, outlawing of porn and homosexuality, Christian symbology posted in public places as matter of fact, Christian biblical tales in public science classes, abstinence education instead of condom usage.  They got a small chicken bone tossed to them once in a while, but not nearly enough.  After 30 years, they've had enough, and with a new hero like Sarah Palin, they may actually get control.

The Corporate Cons - Most of these guys could give a shit about morality issues.  Their tasks, which were mostly accomplished in the last 30 years, were to unchain themselves from the ethical rules of business and avoid paying as many taxes as possible.  In the later years, they got greedy and started to even figure out ways to get the government to pay them in the form of bailouts and marginally useful privatization contracts.  They'll never actually pay the piper on this one, but they did have a good run while it lasted.  Now with the taxpayer picking up the tab in a BIG way, maybe they'll skitter off to Dubai and leave America to the vultures...or maybe they'll tinker with their message a bit and rise again.

The Neo-Cons - These guys were once referred to by Bush Sr. as "those crazies in the basement [of the Pentagon]", but became Jr.'s raison d'etre.   Their goal?  Pax Americana: The USA is and always will be the sole remaining superpower, through use of superior military might the rest of the world will be held hostage to our un-backed dollars.  American citizens will be fat and happy while their soldiers police the world, and rising manufacturing nations feed us with the goods we need to stay that way and we pay them in dollars that continually lose value.  This scheme was supposed to last 1000's of years.  It lasted about 6 in reality land with massive fallout.  Can the scare of Al Qaeda be enough to keep them in power or give them control of the party?

The Paranoid Fringe - Late-comers to the party in the 2000 election, this is an umbrella category covering a lot of various groups with the same main ideas: government is bad, taxes are worse, their race/religion/nationality/gender is superior to others, and Bill Clinton had black helicopters to take their guns away.  You can see how each group above appeals to these guys on one or more levels.  Even Ron Paul, who had moderated and scrubbed his message quite well come 2008 primary season, was once very much knee deep in the shit with these people.

Moderate Reformers - This was the Party of Reagan but members were systemically primaried out over the last 20+ years as the Republicans shifted further and further right on almost every front.  Though they espoused right-wing ideals, they also had a strong streak of realism and moderation in the message as well as something almost all of the above groups lack...a hair-line crack of integrity.  Can the Republican revolution bring someone back along these lines, or are they too far gone?

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2008-10-27 01:57:58)

AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6162|what

When the party suffers a defeat, (and it will no doubt) the first solution is to move more towards the centre of the political spectrum. Most parties have been moving more towards the right over the last 50 years, the further the Democrats move right, the larger their base of moderates become. The Republicans have countered that move by moving further to the right and it hasn't helped.

I think if the Republicans move more towards the left the Democrats may be in a difficult situation. The problem is, the Republicans are mostly right wingers who absolutely hate the thought of liberals.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6420|'Murka

Completely even-handed description of each. Now where's that tinfoil hat...?

To lump McCain in with the neocons is utter horseshit, as anyone who spent even a tiny amount of time studying his record would know.

Regardless, the conservatives in this country are tired of seeing their party hijacked by ideologues. It will either result in bringing the GOP back toward Reagan-esque positions or it will result in another viable party.

My guess is the Democrats will be realizing the same thing for their party in 8-12 years.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6382|Kyiv, Ukraine

FEOS wrote:

Completely even-handed description of each. Now where's that tinfoil hat...?

To lump McCain in with the neocons is utter horseshit, as anyone who spent even a tiny amount of time studying his record would know.

Regardless, the conservatives in this country are tired of seeing their party hijacked by ideologues. It will either result in bringing the GOP back toward Reagan-esque positions or it will result in another viable party.

My guess is the Democrats will be realizing the same thing for their party in 8-12 years.
McCain was actually hard to place, as recently he's been all over the damned map and pandering to whichever group is sitting in front of him at the time.  His record since 1980 or so puts him firmly in corporate con land, but his ability to toe the neo-con line and whip out a few catch phrases ("100 years of war", "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.") also places his loyalties in that direction in the recent election.  His selection of Palin puts him in theo-con land.  He has this magic ability to cater to everyone in his party yet please nobody in the process.

And Democrats are just a hair right of center at the moment.  In 8-12 years they should be just a hair left of center.  Despite the jackal pundits and their yammering about socialism, there's nothing about Obama's proposed policies that put him anywhere near left-field at the moment.  One thing about the Republicans I never understood...Bill Clinton was hated by liberals (Michael Moore was NOT kind to that man), he was firmly in center-right policy land and governance, yet somehow he also became the big demon for the Gingrich far-right.

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2008-10-27 02:58:32)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6115|eXtreme to the maX
Voted Theocon, the moderates are now supporting Obama.

Who says the Democrats need to be left of centre at all? In most other countries the Democrat and Labour parties are now centre-right.
Lets hope the Republicans lurch further into extremism and just peter out.

PS I have plenty of tin-foil should anyone need it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-10-27 03:17:38)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6420|'Murka

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Completely even-handed description of each. Now where's that tinfoil hat...?

To lump McCain in with the neocons is utter horseshit, as anyone who spent even a tiny amount of time studying his record would know.

Regardless, the conservatives in this country are tired of seeing their party hijacked by ideologues. It will either result in bringing the GOP back toward Reagan-esque positions or it will result in another viable party.

My guess is the Democrats will be realizing the same thing for their party in 8-12 years.
McCain was actually hard to place, as recently he's been all over the damned map and pandering to whichever group is sitting in front of him at the time.  His record since 1980 or so puts him firmly in corporate con land, but his ability to toe the neo-con line and whip out a few catch phrases ("100 years of war", "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.") also places his loyalties in that direction in the recent election.  His selection of Palin puts him in theo-con land.  He has this magic ability to cater to everyone in his party yet please nobody in the process.

And Democrats are just a hair right of center at the moment.  In 8-12 years they should be just a hair left of center.  Despite the jackal pundits and their yammering about socialism, there's nothing about Obama's proposed policies that put him anywhere near left-field at the moment.  One thing about the Republicans I never understood...Bill Clinton was hated by liberals (Michael Moore was NOT kind to that man), he was firmly in center-right policy land and governance, yet somehow he also became the big demon for the Gingrich far-right.
Where exactly is "center" then? Clearly, it varies from country to country, as nobody in the US would say that the Dems are "slightly right of center". In Europe, where socialism is the name of the game, anything right of socialism is considered "right of center" whereas socialism is near the far left of the spectrum from the perspective of the US "center".

And way to take McCain's comments completely out of context to support your flawed argument. Yes, he's been pandering to the base...as has Obama. That's what politicians do. McCain's selection of Palin doesn't put McCain anywhere...Palin's views put her in whatever category you wish to create to justify your argument.

To use Michael Moore as a measuring stick of a politician's position on the spectrum is just laughable. What's next: Asking George Lucas what he thinks on foreign policy?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6115|eXtreme to the maX
Actually you could read 'Star Wars' as an allegory of the McCarthyite paranoia about the red menace.

Not sure if Lucas was having some fun, or indoctrinating a whole new generation in the 'be afraid of everyone and kill them' approach to diplomacy for which the US is world renowned.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6420|'Murka

hyperbole ftl
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6382|Kyiv, Ukraine

FEOS wrote:

Where exactly is "center" then? Clearly, it varies from country to country, as nobody in the US would say that the Dems are "slightly right of center". In Europe, where socialism is the name of the game, anything right of socialism is considered "right of center" whereas socialism is near the far left of the spectrum from the perspective of the US "center".
Personally, I blame FauxNews for really skewing the reality of the political spectrum and enforcing the "far-right is actually moderation" meme.  Here's an example of a chart using a realistic measuring stick:

https://chawedrosin.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/usprimaries_2007.png

And way to take McCain's comments completely out of context to support your flawed argument. Yes, he's been pandering to the base...as has Obama. That's what politicians do. McCain's selection of Palin doesn't put McCain anywhere...Palin's views put her in whatever category you wish to create to justify your argument.
Put him wherever you feel like.  If you insist I can put his name next to anything you want if it helps you feel better, no sweat off my nuts.  It was never a core arguement in this case or the point of this thread.

To use Michael Moore as a measuring stick of a politician's position on the spectrum is just laughable. What's next: Asking George Lucas what he thinks on foreign policy?
Michael Moore is, among many things, considered a liberal dick.  He hated Clinton and would show repeatedly how Clinton's policies were quite anti-left agenda in his earlier works before W. gave him such ripe material.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6115|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

hyperbole ftl
Yeah, I never liked Star Wars TBH.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6162|what

Dilbert_X wrote:

Actually you could read 'Star Wars' as an allegory of the McCarthyite paranoia about the red menace.
I could have sworn it was George Bush who said your either with me or you are my enemy.

Or was that Darth Vader?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6781|PNW

The OP is just rattling his saber. It's full of the same absurd generalizations that right-wingers on these forums get knocked over the head for using against the left, and is probably intended to spark a reactionary flame war.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-10-27 05:36:40)

GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6382|Kyiv, Ukraine
Not really, I'll put up my invitation again to anyone that wants to fix the definitions or attached personalities.  No saber-rattling at all, actually just some popcorn popping and getting ready for the blood bowl.  The dems went through a similar phase when they lost the 2004 election, though not nearly as hyped on "up against the wall!" rhetoric like this one is shaping up to be.

So the Republican fans here are denying that their party of choice is made up of various factions - each pursuing their own agenda in loose cooperation with the others?

Are they denying that the various pundits are jumping ship like drowning rats and taking up sides in these various factions?

If you aren't denying there are factions, then how would you classify them and their success rate and control of the party in the last 30 years along realistic lines?

Further, in the upcoming political struggle, which faction would come out on top to shape up for an appeal to take the electorate again?

How much do you really know about the mechanics and anatomy of your own party vs. rhetoric about the evil communist tax and spend liberal terrorist sympathizers that are your ideological enemies?

Not trying to bait anyone, and I feel bad that nobody can actually come up with a reasoned response.  Feel free to use rhetoric and humor, its ok, but to deny this issue that will effect the future direction of your political champions is sticking your head in the sand.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6781|PNW

Democrats go through the same scuffles, but it's essentially an oversimplification. Both parties have various camps, but their supporters fall into way more categories than could be easily listed. How would you categorize a Republican business owner who votes Democrat now and then, donates to charity, pursues clean energy and is religious but doesn't go to church? Or a bible-thumping Democratic retiree who's main hobbies are shooting wild animals and collecting social security?
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6382|Kyiv, Ukraine

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Democrats go through the same scuffles, but it's essentially an oversimplification. Both parties have various camps, but their supporters fall into way more categories than could be easily listed. How would you categorize a Republican business owner who votes Democrat now and then, donates to charity, pursues clean energy and is religious but doesn't go to church? Or a bible-thumping Democratic retiree who's main hobbies are shooting wild animals and collecting social security?
I call them party supporters sometimes, swing voters at other times, sometimes even "moderates", dare I say?  None of those examples are "electable" people or party purists in any sense of the word as the Republican party stands today.  Democrats may welcome them today as "Blue Dog Democrats", something not possible just a few years ago.

Doesn't matter.  It has not much to do with the LEADERSHIP of the current Republican party or the ideologues in the think-tanks generating policies or talking points. 

It also has not much to do with the Democratic party, who does indeed have their own factions, crazies, and moderate voices.

Now that we've established what the OP was not about...


This is about the future face of the Republican party.  What will it look like?  Which faction will steer the new ship now that the old one has sunk?

Bonus question:  How many years will it take them to get their shit together enough to actually challenge the Dems in a major election?

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2008-10-27 06:20:36)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6781|PNW

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

This is about the future face of the Republican party.  What will it look like?  Which faction will steer the new ship now that the old one has sunk?

Bonus question:  How many years will it take them to get their shit together enough to actually challenge the Dems in a major election?
I think you're jumping the gun a bit. Awhile back, people figured that the Democrats' ship was sunk with the incessant Hillary-Obama 'civil war' that persisted after McCain won, but now the Dems are pretty much behind the great 'O of Hope' (even if some Clintonites are still disgruntled). Since he did win the Republican primaries, Republicans and right-wingers who aren't normally McCain supporters will still, for the most part, cast their votes for him in the hopes that his policies will be less liberal than Obama's.

Americans have been disenfranchised by both parties, but not bold enough to amass support behind a third, so power's still up for grabs by candidates from either party who can enchant the public more than their opposition. Of course, it'll still help to have 'better hair.'

As to the future of the Republican party, who can tell? Presidency can sometimes help define, but doesn't necessarily dictate party or constituent demeanor, and since your poll stated 'supporters,' I'd have to call it a combination of aspects both mentioned and ignored.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-10-27 06:40:05)

RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6724|US
You completely missed the moderate-right libertarians (or maybe you consider them the fringe groups).  The Republican party used to fall back on their "less government, more individual freedoms and responsibilities" line (which I happen to agree with), but with the rise of the religious right and the neo-cons, that line and those kinds of actions have been conspicuously missing.

I guess I am just a disenfranchised voter, now.

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2008-10-27 16:26:32)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6420|'Murka

GTT wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Where exactly is "center" then? Clearly, it varies from country to country, as nobody in the US would say that the Dems are "slightly right of center". In Europe, where socialism is the name of the game, anything right of socialism is considered "right of center" whereas socialism is near the far left of the spectrum from the perspective of the US "center".
Personally, I blame FauxNews for really skewing the reality of the political spectrum and enforcing the "far-right is actually moderation" meme.  Here's an example of a chart using a realistic measuring stick:
And what measuring stick would that be? Again, from a leftist view, the American Democrats don't seem very left. But from the American perspective (I know, it's been a while since you've had to deal with that), they are left of center. Center as defined by US politics.

GTT wrote:

FEOS wrote:

And way to take McCain's comments completely out of context to support your flawed argument. Yes, he's been pandering to the base...as has Obama. That's what politicians do. McCain's selection of Palin doesn't put McCain anywhere...Palin's views put her in whatever category you wish to create to justify your argument.
Put him wherever you feel like.  If you insist I can put his name next to anything you want if it helps you feel better, no sweat off my nuts.  It was never a core arguement in this case or the point of this thread.
Why not put him wherever I like? You did.

And it was a core argument of the OP, since you decided to determine for yourself broad-brush categories in which to put people, using deprecating language simply because you disagree with their political philosophy.

   

GTT wrote:

FEOS wrote:

To use Michael Moore as a measuring stick of a politician's position on the spectrum is just laughable. What's next: Asking George Lucas what he thinks on foreign policy?
Michael Moore is, among many things, considered a liberal dick.  He hated Clinton and would show repeatedly how Clinton's policies were quite anti-left agenda in his earlier works before W. gave him such ripe material.
And again, using Michael Moore as a measuring stick for anything other than sizing for a big & tall store is utter buffoonery.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6333|New Haven, CT
Lels, I just wrote an essay that partially discussed how factions hijack parties. I think this is plainly evident with the Republican Party today.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6162|what

nukchebi0 wrote:

Lels, I just wrote an essay that partially discussed how factions hijack parties. I think this is plainly evident with the Republican Party today.
Can you post it?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6333|New Haven, CT
Check your PMs. I don't want it available for easy plagiarization (plus it is a massive wall of text).
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6382|Kyiv, Ukraine

RAIMIUS wrote:

You completely missed the moderate-right libertarians (or maybe you consider them the fringe groups).  The Republican party used to fall back on their "less government, more individual freedoms and responsibilities" line (which I happen to agree with), but with the rise of the religious right and the neo-cons, that line and those kinds of actions have been conspicuously missing.

I guess I am just a disenfranchised voter, now.
They're missing because they are absent from the leadership of the party at the moment.  Basically any major politician not being protected by one of these factions within the party in the last 30 years, not toeing the party line, showing religious tolerance publically, etc, has been punished, cast out, primaried out, or scandals have been brought to light and allowed to run their course without any intervention.

Most Republicans are like you, moderate right in their views, but most haven't realized that their party no longer represents them.  Some have even gone so far as to start adapting the caricature and ideology posed by the current leadership.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6420|'Murka

GTT, your broad generalizations regarding the Republican party membership are simply not accurate. Have you come to these conclusions by observing all the Republicans in the Ukraine over the past few years?

The bottomline is that the average Republican in the US has the same bitterness about the party right now that many of us on BF2S have. The GOP has moved away from fiscal conservatism, limited government, and literal Constitutionality. The only hope is to vote in more moderate Republicans and hope we can move away from those factions that have driven the GOP away from the fundamentals.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6382|Kyiv, Ukraine

FEOS wrote:

The bottomline is that the average Republican in the US has the same bitterness about the party right now that many of us on BF2S have. The GOP has moved away from fiscal conservatism, limited government, and literal Constitutionality. The only hope is to vote in more moderate Republicans and hope we can move away from those factions that have driven the GOP away from the fundamentals.
So how will this happen when the right-leaning punditry and media machine (talk radio, FoxNews, for example) are stacked so much in favor and with the message of the far right?  With the moderate and center-left media it was relatively easy actually for the Dems to get and stay on a message that resonates with the widest base, how will the right go about doing the same?

The Christian foot soldiers that have carried elections the last 6 cycles are disenchanted at the moment and Palin was a chance to rally this base...and only met very moderate success while at the same time alienating the shaky center.  Do you foresee them making their own party to challenge the Republican big-business types?  Its very hard to vote in Republican moderates if their own party big-wigs don't accept their membership...they could still be on the ticket but show up as a 3rd party, like Ron Paul has for most of his career.

What is the realistic turn of events, who will be purged and who will carry the torch of the GOP?
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6420|'Murka

GTT wrote:

So how will this happen when the right-leaning punditry and media machine (talk radio, FoxNews, for example) are stacked so much in favor and with the message of the far right?  With the moderate and center-left media it was relatively easy actually for the Dems to get and stay on a message that resonates with the widest base, how will the right go about doing the same?
FoxNews is not nearly as far right as talk radio. The left-leaning media (hell, the media in general) needs to provide equal treatment of both sides of the issue. Agnosticism regarding politics, if you will. That is the only way the media can help the situation. Which means journalism schools must go back to teaching journalistic ethics and the industry must start enforcing journalistic ethics, rather than political agendas.

GTT wrote:

The Christian foot soldiers that have carried elections the last 6 cycles are disenchanted at the moment and Palin was a chance to rally this base...and only met very moderate success while at the same time alienating the shaky center.  Do you foresee them making their own party to challenge the Republican big-business types?  Its very hard to vote in Republican moderates if their own party big-wigs don't accept their membership...they could still be on the ticket but show up as a 3rd party, like Ron Paul has for most of his career.
The "Christian foot soldiers" aren't what have carried the elections, it has been the middle-of-the-road voters. There are far more of them than there are of far-right or far-left voters. I don't necessarily see the religious right making their own party, but I do see them being more marginalized in terms of "base" of the GOP.

I suppose there is always the possibility that the Libertarian Party will grow in popularity to challenge one of the other big parties, but I believe it's more likely that the GOP will moderate to accommodate those views.

GTT wrote:

What is the realistic turn of events, who will be purged and who will carry the torch of the GOP?
I think the neocons will be purged and Romney will likely be the new star, along with other moderates who are waiting in the wings.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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