Did America 'Win' The Vietnam War?

2008-10-03 06:29:39

#1

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6596|Éire

Simple enough question... do you believe that the US were successful in Vietnam or did they fail in what they were trying to achieve? I ask this because it seems to be a subject that many people like to tip-toe around. Even just last night Sarah Palin said that John McCain (a veteran of the Vietnam war) "knows how to win a war"... was she referring to his service in Vietnam?

Discuss.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-10-03 06:31:12)

2008-10-03 06:31:27

#2

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6861

I'm fairly sure Vietnam is still nominally 'communist' today...

2008-10-03 06:33:36

#3

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6649|tropical regions of london

The United States military performed remarkably with the limited support from politicians and the people. The US military didnt lose the war.

2008-10-03 06:37:31

#4

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6596|Éire

God Save the Queen wrote:
The United States military performed remarkably with the limited support from politicians and the people. The US military didnt lose the war.

But by that are you asserting that the US military 'won' the war? Or that it was a stalemate?

What made me think about it was the way in which the Afghanis drove the Russians out of Afghanistan and how it was hailed by many as the first ever defeat of the red army and the biggest ever upset in International conflict... nobody seems to talk about the Vietnam war in such absolute terms though.

2008-10-03 06:37:56

#5

Freke1: I play at night... mostly; +47|6852|the best galaxy

Officially there was a peace treaty or ceasefire if I remember correctly.
Another false flag operation though (Gulf of Tonkin).

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2008-10-03 06:39:16

#6

Liberal-Sl@yer: Certified BF2S Asshole; +131|6761|The edge of sanity

In a military since the war was a draw, bacause of the ceasefire. However, America lost vietnam in a political and conceptual sense.

2008-10-03 06:39:19

#7

steelie34: pub hero!; +603|6687|the land of bourbon

our goal was to stop vietnam from becoming communist, but it is still to this day, so we lost. we could have stayed and continued to bomb the crap out of them, but i think we faced the realization that the cost was too high for the possible benefit, so we left.

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2008-10-03 06:40:27

#8

Mekstizzle: WALKER; +3,611|6926|London, England

Well, it is still Communist. Maybe they kicked arse whilst they were there but War isn't just about kicking some arse. Well, not anymore it aint.

I'll tell you who I blame for the Vietnam and Korean wars. The Vietnamese and the Koreans themselves. Silly fools getting angry at each other over Western political views. Being used as proxy for some other guys. Divide and conquer. Some say the British Empire was the best at that. But they only took advantage of what was already there. Whereas I don't recall the Vietnamese or the Koreans hating each other so much before the invention of the whole Communist/Capitalist crap.

Weak people who couldn't see that they're being played by some fools thousands of miles away. Yeah you, Koreans and Vietnamese.

Same shit is happening to this day. The Afghans/Pakistanis are either being manipulated by the crazy Arabs or by the West. They can't forget their own identity.

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-10-03 06:41:49)

2008-10-03 06:43:09

#9

jord: Member; +2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.

They and many other countries will see it as a victory for Vietnam.

It's like if a kid beats John Rambo in an arm wrestle once and losses the next time, it's 1-1. But the kid see's his one victory as a great accomplishment.

2008-10-03 06:44:42

#10

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6649|tropical regions of london

but the fact is john rambo did beat the kid. rambo beat him and then everyone around him said "enough, arm wrestling over, kid wins"

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-10-03 06:44:56)

2008-10-03 06:44:43

#11

Mekstizzle: WALKER; +3,611|6926|London, England

jord wrote:
It's like if a kid beats John Rambo in an arm wrestle once and losses the next time, it's 1-1. But the kid see's his one victory as a great accomplishment.

Except there was no next time where they lost. So it's still 1-0

2008-10-03 06:46:17

#12

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6824|Πάϊ

God Save the Queen wrote:
The United States military performed remarkably with the limited support from politicians and the people. The US military didnt lose the war.

There are many ways to lose a war dude...

_ƒ³

2008-10-03 06:46:53

#13

SEREMAKER: BABYMAKIN EXPERT √; +2,187|6874|Mountains of NC

is there any war that is actually " won " ......................... think about it

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2008-10-03 06:47:40

#14

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6824|Πάϊ

SEREMAKER wrote:
is there any war that is actually " won " ......................... think about it

yes

_ƒ³

2008-10-03 06:47:52

#15

Mekstizzle: WALKER; +3,611|6926|London, England

Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Same shit is happening to this day. The Afghans/Pakistanis are either being manipulated by the crazy Arabs or by the West. They can't forget their own identity.

Forge* not forget.

And I want to add more examples but there's too many. I think that's the difference between certain countries, races and people. Some can see that they're being played by someone else and say "Fuck you, we're what we are, fuck both of you" - Like the USA, they managed to forge their own identity. So did many European nations. Whereas others were like "We're so fucking dumb, we'll listen to some fucks thousands of miles away and hate each other even though we never did before"

Pisses me off that people can be like that.

2008-10-03 06:47:54

#16

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6649|tropical regions of london

oug wrote:
God Save the Queen wrote:
The United States military performed remarkably with the limited support from politicians and the people. The US military didnt lose the war.
There are many ways to lose a war dude...

and Im saying the military didnt lose it. your point? you really arent telling me anything I dont know

2008-10-03 06:48:44

#17

SEREMAKER: BABYMAKIN EXPERT √; +2,187|6874|Mountains of NC

oug wrote:
SEREMAKER wrote:
is there any war that is actually " won " ......................... think about it
yes

you're not reading into what I wrote ............ think about it

2008-10-03 06:50:44

#18

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6824|Πάϊ

God Save the Queen wrote:
oug wrote:
God Save the Queen wrote:
The United States military performed remarkably with the limited support from politicians and the people. The US military didnt lose the war.
There are many ways to lose a war dude...
and Im saying the military didnt lose it. your point? you really arent telling me anything I dont know

I'm saying that in the Vietnam war maybe the military part was doing ok. And maybe you would have won under different circumstances - if it had lasted longer, if they'd let you bomb the lot of 'em etc. But, they didn't, so you lost. The politicians and the people - especially the latter - are as much a part of war as the soldiers. That's probably what you don't weigh in.

_ƒ³

2008-10-03 06:52:02

#19

jord: Member; +2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.

SEREMAKER wrote:
oug wrote:
SEREMAKER wrote:
is there any war that is actually " won " ......................... think about it
yes
you're not reading into what I wrote ............ think about it

You're talking about how people dying is regarded at "losing".

When in normal terms, yes, a war can be one by one side that accomplishes it's objective. They still lost lots of soldiers, but they completed what they sought to do. Thus, "winning".

2008-10-03 06:53:22

#20

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6649|tropical regions of london

oug wrote:
God Save the Queen wrote:
oug wrote:

There are many ways to lose a war dude...
and Im saying the military didnt lose it. your point? you really arent telling me anything I dont know
I'm saying that in the Vietnam war maybe the military part was doing ok. And maybe you would have won under different circumstances - if it had lasted longer, if they'd let you bomb the lot of 'em etc. But, they didn't, so you lost. The politicians and the people - especially the latter - are as much a part of war as the soldiers. That's probably what you don't weigh in.

and Ive said that numerous times on this forum in the past including last night.

2008-10-03 06:55:17

#21

SEREMAKER: BABYMAKIN EXPERT √; +2,187|6874|Mountains of NC

jord wrote:
SEREMAKER wrote:
oug wrote:

yes
you're not reading into what I wrote ............ think about it
You're talking about how people dying is regarded at "losing".

When in normal terms, yes, a war can be one by one side that accomplishes it's objective. They still lost lots of soldiers, but they completed what they sought to do. Thus, "winning".

I'm all for war ............. anytime anyplace but watching your brothers in arms get shredded ......... its hard, espically when you have to face there family

2008-10-03 06:56:03

#22

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6824|Πάϊ

SEREMAKER wrote:
oug wrote:
SEREMAKER wrote:
is there any war that is actually " won " ......................... think about it
yes
you're not reading into what I wrote ............ think about it

The Russians beat the Georgians. The Greeks beat the Persians. The Allies beat the Germans. Three examples of clear victory off the top of my head.

In our days things are more obscure though, I'll give you that. It's quite rare to find a true victory today.

_ƒ³

2008-10-03 06:56:25

#23

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6596|Éire

Does anyone reckon the Russians consider their Afghan war a draw?

2008-10-03 06:57:04

#24

Mekstizzle: WALKER; +3,611|6926|London, England

You can go in with the objective of stealing the diamond. You can go in there and kill everyone and take the diamond. But if, whatever it is, if something stops you from getting that diamond. Then you've failed the objective, no? It doesn't matter whether it was Politicians, or Aliens that stopped the original objective. It doesn't matter how badly you kicked their arses. It's still considered a loss.

I think, if Soldiers moan about Politicians telling them to invade or withdraw, then maybe they're in the wrong job. I mean, everyone has their voice, but the military isn't a democracy. You know what you're getting into when you go into it. It works both ways. You can't complain when you're being told to invade and you can't complain when being told to withdraw, for whatever reason. Most don't really complain, maybe that's why they're a special breed!

Braddock wrote:
Does anyone reckon the Russians consider their Afghan war a draw?

I'd say they surely consider it a utter failure (Afghanistan never became a communist state) and something that helped bring down their beloved Soviet Union. Anything else and well, they're ignorant.

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-10-03 06:58:18)

2008-10-03 06:57:21

#25

M.O.A.B: 'Light 'em up!'; +1,220|6528|Escea

Militarily yeah, hearts and minds, maybe not so much. But then again, it was the NVA that broke the peace agreement in '75 I think it was.

Yes, They Won It	12%	12% - 10
No, They Lost it	76%	76% - 60
It Was A Draw	10%	10% - 8
Total: 78

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