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2008-09-29 17:03:55
PureFodder
Member
+225|6591

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

They (most of them) did try more than once. I can only assume you didn't watch the second video.  We have layers of checks and balances. The majority does not simply have full run of the house. If that were the case the Dems would have surely passed the bailout today. I suggest you do a little research and learn more about our system of government.
So by that logic, the Dems can't be fully responsable for setting up the problem in the first place?
No they are not fully.. just mostly. You need to look at who was sitting in the high level committee positions as well. Again, if you are going to comment on our political process please go educate yourself first.
There was plenty that could have been done about it regardless of committee positions. Standing behind the Whitehouse press room podium and screaming 'THERE'S A FUCKING MASSIVE HOUSING BUBBLE, BIGGER THAN ANY HOUSING BUBBLE IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF HUMANITY' would have gone a long way to helping if they'd been saying it 5 years ago. The Dems should have been doing that too though (from wherever the opposition party do that from). The Reps also had the option to slap the FED around until they do their best to deal with it. It is in their stated responsabilities to avoid market bubbles.

The fact remains that this bubble was talked about for 5-6 years and the Reps didn't do anything sensible to rectify it until the economy started to fall apart. Do you really believe that holding a firm majority in all branches of government left the Reps powerless against the supreme power of the Dems?

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
2008-09-29 17:16:19
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6967|USA

ATG wrote:

Assuming dragging these bankers from their palaces and politicians from their offices to douse them with gasoline is not an option I honestly don't know what we can do to stop this.
That is still a viable option. If you can afford the gas do it.
2008-09-29 17:17:14
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6834|Global Command
The 1st OP video went the way of our economy.

2008-09-29 17:23:44
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6685|MN

PureFodder wrote:

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
They didn't just pull the pin, they claimed there was no grenade.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-09-29 17:28:05
MGS3_GrayFox
Member
+50|6472

LividBovine wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
They didn't just pull the pin, they claimed there was no grenade.
The thing is that the Republicans had the chance to fix it, they did shit.

Now the Dems have congressional majority, and 2 years into office they get blamed for everything.

I say fuck it, let the financial crisis take its course.  Let Wall Street crash and burn.  US' economy structure needs a redesign by force.
2008-09-29 18:30:59
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

PureFodder wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

So by that logic, the Dems can't be fully responsable for setting up the problem in the first place?
No they are not fully.. just mostly. You need to look at who was sitting in the high level committee positions as well. Again, if you are going to comment on our political process please go educate yourself first.
There was plenty that could have been done about it regardless of committee positions. Standing behind the Whitehouse press room podium and screaming 'THERE'S A FUCKING MASSIVE HOUSING BUBBLE, BIGGER THAN ANY HOUSING BUBBLE IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF HUMANITY' would have gone a long way to helping if they'd been saying it 5 years ago. The Dems should have been doing that too though (from wherever the opposition party do that from). The Reps also had the option to slap the FED around until they do their best to deal with it. It is in their stated responsabilities to avoid market bubbles.

The fact remains that this bubble was talked about for 5-6 years and the Reps didn't do anything sensible to rectify it until the economy started to fall apart. Do you really believe that holding a firm majority in all branches of government left the Reps powerless against the supreme power of the Dems?

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
I've laid out for you exactly what they were trying to do. You've ignored it in every reply. One party was pushing for accountability while the other was insisting that nothing was wrong. There is an obvious connection as to why. Just look at who was on the payroll. Some republicans were making noise. And it was even being reported on. They weren't "staring dumbly".. they were trying to pass legislation (which btw has to go through the financial services committee). The dems were playing down the warning and Barney Frank was telling everyone "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing." Pelosi spent two weeks behind a podium screaming that the world will end if we don't pass this bailout. You've told us screaming behind the podium is the way to go. What was it exactly that she accomplished?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-09-29 18:34:44
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

http://investors.com/editorial/editoria … 4845091102
A visibly annoyed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi rejected suggestions that Democrats share blame for the meltdown. "No," she snapped at reporters who dared ask.

Stick to our narrative, she scolded: The bursting of the housing bubble was another story of market failure and deregulation.

"The American people are not protected from the risk-taking and the greed of these financial institutions," she said, while calling for investigations of the industry.

Only, the risk-taking was her idea — and the idea of all the other Democrats, along with a handful of Republicans, who over the past 30 years have demonized lenders as racist and passed regulation after regulation pressuring them to make more loans to unqualified borrowers in the name of diversity.
IBD...not exactly a partisan publication.

Enough blame on this mess to go around. I won't even touch the various stories that imply the leftist radicals (Ayers et al) were following a published model (Cloward-Piven Strategy) to instigate the crisis...

Last edited by FEOS (2008-09-29 18:37:32)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-09-29 18:43:18
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

LividBovine wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
They didn't just pull the pin, they claimed there was no grenade.
Right so that's what McCain meant when he wrote this:

John McCain wrote:

If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.
No grenade huh? lol @ ignoring what's right in front of your face.. Try again.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-09-29 18:46:03
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6828|...

MGS3_GrayFox wrote:

LividBovine wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
They didn't just pull the pin, they claimed there was no grenade.
The thing is that the Republicans had the chance to fix it, they did shit.

Now the Dems have congressional majority, and 2 years into office they get blamed for everything.
It's not as simple as that it still takes cooperation from both sides -- you know this. Better said its CONGRESS' FAULT. Still boils down to greed.

MGS3_GrayFox wrote:

I say fuck it, let the financial crisis take its course.  Let Wall Street crash and burn.  US' economy structure needs a redesign by force.
I totally agree.

Last edited by jsnipy (2008-09-29 18:46:17)

2008-09-29 19:53:00
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6685|MN

LividBovine wrote:

They didn't just pull the pin, they claimed there was no grenade.
Talking about the Dems not admitting there was a grenade after pulling the pin on it.  Just to clarify.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-09-29 19:55:53
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6834|Global Command

jsnipy wrote:

MGS3_GrayFox wrote:

I say fuck it, let the financial crisis take its course.  Let Wall Street crash and burn.  US' economy structure needs a redesign by force.
I totally agree.
People thinking that way, and I can see the point, should be prepared for 3-6 months of true shit with no gas and little food.

They will push us to the breaking point before they stop.
2008-09-30 03:20:12
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6679|Kyiv, Ukraine

ATG wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You need to look at who was sitting in the high level committee positions as well.
And that is the smoking gun.


Why has not the McCain camp pointed out the fact that the list of top receivers of donations from the two main culprits in this ( Fannie and Freddy ) is a who's who of the democrap party?

It's obvious this is intentional.

The question I want answered is why?
Here's some answers:  Charles Black, Rick Davis, Mark McKinnon, Kenneth Lay, Forrest Hoglund, Jeffrey Skilling, Thomas Weisel, William Schreyer, Lindner family.

As for Fannie/Freddie - guess what, you're just looking at individuals.  Look at Fannie and Freddie as a whole over the last 20 years and you get -


Freddie (by itself) - 43% to Democrats, 57% to Republicans
----to compare----
Commercial banks (industry whole) - 40% Democraps, 60% Repugs
Savings and Loans (industry whole) - 46% Democraps, 52% Repugs
Credit and Finance (industry whole) - 38% Democraps, 61% Repugs

Sooo, start throwing around some "moral relativity" on a truely objective scale, you can start pulling averages of who owns what pieces of whom.

Because the repug fanboi's here and elsewhere are ignoring the real dirt.  Nobody's hands are clean, and depending on where you get your info, you only see certain sides.  Yes, it is intentional, because for every 1 finger they point at the Democrat conspirators, 4 fingers point right back at the Bushies.  McCain is in the same shit right up to his metamucil hole.

"Top receivers of donations from Fannie and Freddie" is just one very very small piece to the jigsaw puzzle and power games.  Take a look at McCain's campaign advisors, dig back to the same players in the S+L bailout, Keating 5, the real issues in the Enron catastrophe.  Enron was chalked up to public view as "a company gone wild" and a bunch of "accounting errors and book-cooking"...that was only 5% of the whole picture.   Repugs, especially Bush family and friends - McCain included, were key players in all these aspects.

As for straight donations - if you're an industry paid lobbyist on a Repug staff retainer, then they don't have to declare you as a donation.  You're a volunteer that just happens to be on someone else's payroll at the same time.  Records will reflect this, but nobody has to talk about it, ya know?

This will get you started on why McCain in this specific case is keeping his yap shut like a good little Repug monkey - basically he got caught lying through his teeth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/us/po … ccain.html
2008-09-30 04:15:56
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6980|Canberra, AUS

MGS3_GrayFox wrote:

LividBovine wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
They didn't just pull the pin, they claimed there was no grenade.
The thing is that the Republicans had the chance to fix it, they did shit.

Now the Dems have congressional majority, and 2 years into office they get blamed for everything.

I say fuck it, let the financial crisis take its course.  Let Wall Street crash and burn.  US' economy structure needs a redesign by force.
And bring down with it the retirement funds and investments of much of America and beyond?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2008-09-30 05:01:27
PureFodder
Member
+225|6591

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


No they are not fully.. just mostly. You need to look at who was sitting in the high level committee positions as well. Again, if you are going to comment on our political process please go educate yourself first.
There was plenty that could have been done about it regardless of committee positions. Standing behind the Whitehouse press room podium and screaming 'THERE'S A FUCKING MASSIVE HOUSING BUBBLE, BIGGER THAN ANY HOUSING BUBBLE IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF HUMANITY' would have gone a long way to helping if they'd been saying it 5 years ago. The Dems should have been doing that too though (from wherever the opposition party do that from). The Reps also had the option to slap the FED around until they do their best to deal with it. It is in their stated responsabilities to avoid market bubbles.

The fact remains that this bubble was talked about for 5-6 years and the Reps didn't do anything sensible to rectify it until the economy started to fall apart. Do you really believe that holding a firm majority in all branches of government left the Reps powerless against the supreme power of the Dems?

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
I've laid out for you exactly what they were trying to do. You've ignored it in every reply. One party was pushing for accountability while the other was insisting that nothing was wrong. There is an obvious connection as to why. Just look at who was on the payroll. Some republicans were making noise. And it was even being reported on. They weren't "staring dumbly".. they were trying to pass legislation (which btw has to go through the financial services committee). The dems were playing down the warning and Barney Frank was telling everyone "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing." Pelosi spent two weeks behind a podium screaming that the world will end if we don't pass this bailout. You've told us screaming behind the podium is the way to go. What was it exactly that she accomplished?
But there were more Reps in office than Dems. From what you've shown there appeared to be a handful of Reps with sense and a majority of reps and Dems who either didn't understand or didn't care. It certainly wasn't a priority of the Bush administration to prevent this mess.

The reason that screaming about the bubble would have been effective several years ago is that people would have reacted to the news and it would have helped prevent the bubble rising as much, making the resultant collapse less damaging. If people firmly understood that the housing market was guarenteed to drop significantly in the near future, both lenders and borrowers would have been less inclined to commit fiscal suicide. The reason it didn't work in the last two weeks is that the bubble was already there.
2008-09-30 10:58:39
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

PureFodder wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

There was plenty that could have been done about it regardless of committee positions. Standing behind the Whitehouse press room podium and screaming 'THERE'S A FUCKING MASSIVE HOUSING BUBBLE, BIGGER THAN ANY HOUSING BUBBLE IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF HUMANITY' would have gone a long way to helping if they'd been saying it 5 years ago. The Dems should have been doing that too though (from wherever the opposition party do that from). The Reps also had the option to slap the FED around until they do their best to deal with it. It is in their stated responsabilities to avoid market bubbles.

The fact remains that this bubble was talked about for 5-6 years and the Reps didn't do anything sensible to rectify it until the economy started to fall apart. Do you really believe that holding a firm majority in all branches of government left the Reps powerless against the supreme power of the Dems?

The bubble was there, the Repbublicans were in power, they didn't use their power to stop the problem. They hold responsability for staring dumbly at the grenade as it went off even if the Dems stupidly pulled the pin in the first place.
I've laid out for you exactly what they were trying to do. You've ignored it in every reply. One party was pushing for accountability while the other was insisting that nothing was wrong. There is an obvious connection as to why. Just look at who was on the payroll. Some republicans were making noise. And it was even being reported on. They weren't "staring dumbly".. they were trying to pass legislation (which btw has to go through the financial services committee). The dems were playing down the warning and Barney Frank was telling everyone "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing." Pelosi spent two weeks behind a podium screaming that the world will end if we don't pass this bailout. You've told us screaming behind the podium is the way to go. What was it exactly that she accomplished?
But there were more Reps in office than Dems. From what you've shown there appeared to be a handful of Reps with sense and a majority of reps and Dems who either didn't understand or didn't care. It certainly wasn't a priority of the Bush administration to prevent this mess.

The reason that screaming about the bubble would have been effective several years ago is that people would have reacted to the news and it would have helped prevent the bubble rising as much, making the resultant collapse less damaging. If people firmly understood that the housing market was guarenteed to drop significantly in the near future, both lenders and borrowers would have been less inclined to commit fiscal suicide. The reason it didn't work in the last two weeks is that the bubble was already there.
I'm not talking about the already existing bubble. I talking about Pelosi pushing for legislation that she says will prevent further meltdown and total collapse. Both are/were being sold as preventive measures. Both were ineffective in convincing the people.

The problem here is that you are attempting to place blame entirely on the party that at the very least was trying to make the impending debacle known. It was Dems who put the law in place, blocked the oversight (which again can be accomplished with a minority), and downplayed the problem. The reasons are OBVIOUS. All of this was kept down low so that they could continue their gravy train. Sweet feathery Jesus.. open your eyes and listen to what they were saying at the time. The Republicans were warning us, but your hate for all things GOP has made you completely oblivious to the documented FACTS. Your biggest beef is that they didn't make enough noise. .. while at the same time you ignore the fact that the alternative party was doing everything in their power to quiet the warnings. Your nothing but a broken record incapable of looking outside of your preconceived view of the world.

Holy Hell.. even Slick Willy knows who to blame.

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-09-30 11:17:56
topal63
. . .
+533|7023

PureFodder wrote:

... the bubble was already there.
That part is - something I can actually agree with.

Legislation would have done nothing to prevent the 2005 already existing bubble from popping. The ARMs were out there - just waiting for the market price of town-homes, single family homes, condos to come crashing down (in affected markets). At that point a foreclosure - even on a standard loan - can be upside-down if the market conditions are right. Then you're not acquiring assets you're steadily acquiring liabilities with every new foreclosure as home prices (in affected markets) continue to plummet.
2008-09-30 11:28:11
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

The most agreed upon timing of the burst is the end of 2006. lol@ this jackball. There were plenty of bad loans written after 1/05 (when the bill was introduced). We aren't just talking about bad ARM's neither, we are talking about getting people into houses that could not afford the first house payment.. I've seen dozens of foreclosures myself in which the homeowner never made one payment.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-09-30 11:41:06
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6792|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
Both side were hiding their heads in the sand hoping the problem would go away, or they just figured they wouldn't be in office to feel the back draft.

Pelosi signifies everything that is wrong with Congress, she is the first one to point fingers when all fingers need to go inward, i.e. Congress as a whole not just one party.
2008-09-30 11:42:52
topal63
. . .
+533|7023
Kerry, K-man, Kminator... :)

I was not suggesting - no other market activity happened after 2005. Now did I... anyways that guy (in that link) is an idiot.

At the end of 2005 is when we (my company) started seeing serious trouble looming in the S.E. Florida market. By mid 2006 I had already began layoffs due to the problems. Every quarter thereafter my (developer) clients were laying of in waves. Some very large companies reduced their exposure from about 750-1000 employees (not including sub-contractors) to less than 20 (between mid 2006 mid 2008).

Since mid 2006 I haven't had one new private land development project. This is the worst thing that has ever happened in my business experience. Far worse than Carter - far worse than the EPA moratorium on building permits in Miami-Dade County do to concurrency issues concerning overcapacity in the sanitary service system (actually pump station grinders were over capacity due to storm water infiltration).

PS: I fired everyone - except one employee. I went from me, my business partner, one professional associate + 20 employees down to, well: me, my business partner and that one professional associate. That's 23 down to 3.

Last edited by topal63 (2008-09-30 14:26:49)

2008-09-30 11:48:24
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

Yea, it's kinda hurt my business too...lol . I was not suggesting that s-190 was the be all fix all neither.

What I find disturbing is that we still don't have any sort of oversight. Yet we are supposed to just issue blank checks to these guys? Have you read the bailout as it stood yesterday? It would also bail out Union pension plans.. I mean c'mon, srsly?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-09-30 11:50:06
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6834|Global Command

Kmarion wrote:

Yea, it's kinda hurt my business too...lol . I was not suggesting that s-190 was the be all fix all neither.

What I find disturbing is that we still don't have any sort of oversight. Yet we are supposed to just issue blank checks to these guys? Have you read the bailout as it stood yesterday? It would also bail out Union pension plans.. I mean c'mon, srsly?
Dispicable.

Goddamned people.
2008-09-30 13:04:11
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,984|6937|949

I do not think of Americans in general as amoral or unethical...So how is it that we put up with amoral and unethical activities at the very top of our society?  How is it that government seemingly rewards inhumane behavior?  Do we have little-to-no control over our (b)leaders, or are we complacent to their actions, or is it Sisyphean delusion to even think we can do anything?

Rhetorical ruminations I ponder too much, I think.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2008-09-30 13:06:22)

2008-09-30 13:14:17
topal63
. . .
+533|7023
It's an odd type of demon; dragon beast. There is in fact no one at the top - there is no head. Only the assumption of a head. It's a headless dragon - a headless demon.
2008-09-30 17:49:35
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6834|Global Command
Q:

If, during the time the videos in the OP were shot, republicans held both house and senate why is it exactly that they did not use their majority to force reform?

A:

Because this house of cards is built on a foundation of lies.
2008-09-30 18:48:20
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

ATG wrote:

Q:

If, during the time the videos in the OP were shot, republicans held both house and senate why is it exactly that they did not use their majority to force reform?

A:

Because this house of cards is built on a foundation of lies.
I've answered this before. But since you seem to have a genuine interest I don't mind. A simple majority is not enough to constitute full control. Neither party has the 60 votes required to break a filibuster. A minority party can block a measure until either the measure is withdrawn or the filibuster is broken by 60 votes. This Act did not officially die until 2007.
Xbone Stormsurgezz

 

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