FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6717|'Murka

TheAussieReaper wrote:

And the ME doesn't exactly have an environment conductive to ecological disaster should drilling increase or decrease anyway.

wiki wrote:

The natural environment of the Persian Gulf is very rich with good fishing grounds, extensive coral reefs, and abundant pearl oysters, but its ecology has become increasingly under pressure from the heavy industrialisation and in particular the repeated major petroleum spillages associated with recent wars fought in the region.
The PG is a very ecologically diverse area, very vulnerable to oil spills and such. Hell, there has been specific targeting and operations during the conflicts there to prevent ecological disasters.

TheAussieReaper wrote:

It's a double edge sword drilling this oil (which is still years off from becoming a reality). It's temporary relief from oil prices, but only potentially. There's no way to tell how the world markets will have fluctuated by the time drilling does start, because it has taken this long. What good will cutting your dependency on oil from the ME be if the rest of the world is more focused on Nuclear energy?
The intent is to decrease/eliminate our dependence on foreign oil, not to eliminate our need for oil. That won't ever go away, even if we go all-electric with our vehicles and all-nuclear/wind/solar/geothermal with our power plants.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6459|what

Kmarion wrote:

The US did sign Kyoto. What they haven't done is ratify it. I guess you could say we are following through with it as we see fit .
As a U.S. presidential candidate, George W. Bush promised to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. Shortly after he took office in 2001, Bush withdrew U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol and refused to submit it to Congress for ratification.

Instead, Bush proposed a plan with incentives for U.S. businesses to voluntarily reduce greenhouse gas emissions 4.5 percent by 2010, which he claimed would equal taking 70 million cars off the road. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, however, the Bush plan actually would result in a 30 percent increase in U.S. greenhouse gas emissions over 1990 levels instead of the 7 percent reduction the treaty requires. That’s because the Bush plan measures the reduction against current emissions instead of the 1990 benchmark used by the Kyoto Protocol.

So in your opinion does Bush support reducing emissions or not? He didn't put Kyoto to congress. The signing was meaningless. What did happen though is the US set the bar so low that any reductions, excluding perhaps China, are the lowest anywhere on the globe. Even Russia has ratified Kyoto.

But go back and look over the fact that Bush wanted to pressure China into signing Kyoto by not ratifying it himself, that he is really supportive of reducing global warming by cutting emissions voluntarily by businesses and that the cuts that are in place are lower than the standards set by 160+ nations across the globe.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6679|Kyiv, Ukraine
Wow, all this fuss over something to make oil companies richer in...2024?

And all the supply in the world doesn't mean much if refinery production is squeezed to manipulate the energy markets for speculator profit like with the Enron mess.

In the current "free market" in the US for energy, what is the incentive for monopolistic oil companies to refine enough to meet demand and drive down prices?  Nothing, no incentive.  Just another campaign of corporate spin to hoodwink Joe American into going against his own self-interest, with the usual pack of Republicans cheerleading and Democrats caving.

My total heating bill (water, gas) for my 890' sq. apartment 3 months last year in winter in Ukraine, $95 for all three months.  Electric bill was similarly low ($55/month I think).  Gasoline prices are about on par with Europe, stable and higher than the US, as always.  I'm trying to figure out the downside to nationalizing this in the US and can't see it.  Take out the obscene corporate profit margins and speculators hitting the commodities at each step, and you get basically from the rig to heating your home without too much mark-up.

I think it was a huge mistake to give over our de facto national reserve like that and promise it to corporate owners.  Putin is a fascist asshole, but at least he saw the need to nationalize the most valuable commodity for the good of the nation's long-term health, even if it meant wiping out a few other oligarchs.
BVC
Member
+325|7001
IIRC (and I recall making a thread here, about it), the last emission figures I saw had the US's total emissions falling compared to the previous year, AND AND AND the US lost the title of "biggest polluter" to China, despite growing by somewhere between 3 and 5 million people for that year.  Uncle Sam hasn't ratified the Kyoto accord, yes, but that doesn't mean hes not making an effort.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6927|London, England
The US should have been doing this shit ages ago. It seems like it's too late anyway. By the time things actually start becoming productive (a few years to even a decade) things will be so different I dunno what it will be like.

Also it's been established that it wasn't supply/demand that was causing prices to inflate. It was assholes in suits (and other assholes in those Arabic table cloth things).

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-09-24 03:55:08)

usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7067

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

The US should have been doing this shit ages ago. It seems like it's too late anyway. By the time things actually start becoming productive (a few years to even a decade) things will be so different I dunno what it will be like.

Also it's been established that it wasn't supply/demand that was causing prices to inflate. It was assholes in suits (and other assholes in those Arabic table cloth things).
you know there are platforms that are still there in cali, just not turned on right?  i wouldnt say decades.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6679|Kyiv, Ukraine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome

You would think when a bunch of Repugs get together and want to "drill baby drill", people might actually get a bit suspicious.

C'mon people, I remember this from high school history class, and I've gone through a whole bottle of vicodin, 500+ gallons of German beer, and 14 years of 5 hours sleep/night since then.

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2008-09-24 06:02:29)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,818|6412|eXtreme to the maX
The oil companies own the US govt.
More drilling in the US will be a drop in the oil ocean. Whats it going to give you? 5-10 years?

I can't help thinking $1Trillion from the Iraq war, and $700bn to bail out the money markets could have been better spent.
Fusion research.
Clean coal/nuclear.
Solar etc etc.

But noooooo. The US govt can't see beyond the money oil is delivering to the US oligarchs.
Fuck Israel
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

The Kyoto protocol has always been held up as a moral "hands up" , "this country is willing to help" standard rally to signal a countries intent to fight co2 emisions. It's up to the signatories to then follow through with carbon reduction schemes as they see fit.
Maybe you should reread this statement. You seem to have forgotten where you stand. Or maybe you just didn't know that the US did sign it. Either way your bias is nauseating.


TheAussieReaper wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The US did sign Kyoto. What they haven't done is ratify it. I guess you could say we are following through with it as we see fit .
As a U.S. presidential candidate, George W. Bush promised to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. Shortly after he took office in 2001, Bush withdrew U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol and refused to submit it to Congress for ratification.

Instead, Bush proposed a plan with incentives for U.S. businesses to voluntarily reduce greenhouse gas emissions 4.5 percent by 2010, which he claimed would equal taking 70 million cars off the road. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, however, the Bush plan actually would result in a 30 percent increase in U.S. greenhouse gas emissions over 1990 levels instead of the 7 percent reduction the treaty requires. That’s because the Bush plan measures the reduction against current emissions instead of the 1990 benchmark used by the Kyoto Protocol.

So in your opinion does Bush support reducing emissions or not? He didn't put Kyoto to congress. The signing was meaningless. What did happen though is the US set the bar so low that any reductions, excluding perhaps China, are the lowest anywhere on the globe. Even Russia has ratified Kyoto.

But go back and look over the fact that Bush wanted to pressure China into signing Kyoto by not ratifying it himself, that he is really supportive of reducing global warming by cutting emissions voluntarily by businesses and that the cuts that are in place are lower than the standards set by 160+ nations across the globe.
Kyoto was put to congress and rejected in July 1997. (S. Res. 98).
Recognizing the lack of support for the Protocol on Capitol Hill, however, President Clinton never submitted it to the Senate for ratification, a step necessary for it to take effect.
In fact Clinton approved and signed into law appropriations bills for fiscal years 1999, 2000, and 2001 that included language prohibiting the Environmental Protection Agency from using its funds to "issue rules, regulations, decrees, or orders for the purpose of implementation, or in preparation for implementation, of the Kyoto Protocol".. until the Protocol is ratified by the Senate and entered into force under the terms of the treaty (P.L. 105-276 Conference Report 105-769, P.L. 106-74 Conference Report 106-379, and P.L. 106-377 Conference Report 106-988).

Bush has had several acts passed that encouraged CO2 Reduction. Including tax credits for developing green technology, mandating higher mpg targets, tax breaks for people who buy hybrids, etc.. So yea, he does support a reduction. You admitted the uselessness of Kyoto and told me it is just a symbolic agreement. By signing it we said "this country is willing to help", but try imposing equal equal targets on everyone. It is pretty damn obvious that you only want to look at things in a manner that suits your overtly biased opinion. Jesus, have you seen what China and India's CO2 levels have done since they signed and ratified Kyoto. Give me a fucking break...lol. No, you can keep your self aggrandizing feel good document to yourself.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7042|Salt Lake City

If people think this is going to change gas prices immediately, you are insane.  The market was just tested to see how much we would pay for oil and they know it's a lot more than what it used to be.

Do you think this oil is going to be for US consumption only?  Please, this oil is going to go on the world market where it will bring the highest possible dollar price.  Oh, and don't forget that if the cost of a barrel of oil starts getting too low, OPEC just cuts production to keep the prices up a bit (see first paragraph)

This will be nothing but more windfall profits for oil companies.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

If people think this is going to change gas prices immediately, you are insane.  The market was just tested to see how much we would pay for oil and they know it's a lot more than what it used to be.

Do you think this oil is going to be for US consumption only?  Please, this oil is going to go on the world market where it will bring the highest possible dollar price.  Oh, and don't forget that if the cost of a barrel of oil starts getting too low, OPEC just cuts production to keep the prices up a bit (see first paragraph)

This will be nothing but more windfall profits for oil companies.
The Saudis refused to cut production in spite OPEC. The market is driven by speculation. People buy according to what the market will do, long term. It's about sending a message to investors. There has not been an actual shortage of oil (aside from a logistics problem due to storms). Of course the ultimate message is a permanent move to renewable energy. Even Obama has recognized the necessity of exploring and drilling. He called it a stop gap.. which I totally agree with. Again, part of the solution.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6996|Tampa Bay Florida

FEOS wrote:

The intent is to decrease/eliminate our dependence on foreign oil, not to eliminate our need for oil. That won't ever go away, even if we go all-electric with our vehicles and all-nuclear/wind/solar/geothermal with our power plants.
Wow, a real optimist you are.  I guess we'll just die out as soon as we've run out of oil, right?

I like Obamas plan the most (surprise, right?  jk).  Do limited drilling but make sure that drilling also comes in a package meant to increase alternate energy stuff.  They're not mutually exclusive.

usmarine wrote:

so why dont the green weenies bitch at the ME for drilling all over the place?  or Russia?
How many green weenies do you know?  Because the ones I know do bitch at all drilling.

The fact that the ME and Russia are on the other side of the planet also make it a little.... distant.  What are they supposed to do, move there and tell them what to do?  The people in the ME and Russia don't control their government as much as we do here.

Last edited by Spearhead (2008-09-24 11:35:34)

Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6848|Texas - Bigger than France

Spearhead wrote:

I like Obamas plan the most (surprise, right?  jk).  Do limited drilling but make sure that drilling also comes in a package meant to increase alternate energy stuff.  They're not mutually exclusive.
I hadn't heard about that.  What's the "alternate energy stuff"?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

Pug wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

I like Obamas plan the most (surprise, right?  jk).  Do limited drilling but make sure that drilling also comes in a package meant to increase alternate energy stuff.  They're not mutually exclusive.
I hadn't heard about that.  What's the "alternate energy stuff"?
The plan would also need to reduce the existing problem. Like this. Offering just "an alternative" will not be enough.

We've already got incentives in place.

Bush wrote:

We must all recognise that in the long run, new technologies are the key to addressing climate change. But in the short run, they can be more expensive to operate. That is why I believe part of any solution means reforming today's complicated mix of incentives to make the commercialisation and use of new, lower emission technologies more competitive.

"First, the incentive should be carbon-weighted to make lower emission power sources less expensive relative to higher emissions sources, and it should take into account our Nation's energy security needs.

"Second, the incentive should be technology-neutral because the government should not be picking winners and losers in this emerging market.

"Third, the incentive should be long-lasting. It should provide a positive and reliable market signal not only for the investment in a technology, but also for the investments in domestic manufacturing capacity and infrastructure that will help lower costs and scale up availability.

With good legislation, we could save up to 8.5 billion gallons of gasoline per year by 2017 and further reduce greenhouse gas emissions from cars and trucks.
"
Both Obama and McCain support mandatory emissions limits.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6848|Texas - Bigger than France
Ok, but what I meant was "what was Obama's plan to increase alternative energy stuff?"
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|6946|Your moms bedroom
my new company (hopefully) supplies oil rigs. and after 3 months you can get discounted company stock which just jumped up when this was released
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6717|'Murka

Spearhead wrote:

FEOS wrote:

The intent is to decrease/eliminate our dependence on foreign oil, not to eliminate our need for oil. That won't ever go away, even if we go all-electric with our vehicles and all-nuclear/wind/solar/geothermal with our power plants.
Wow, a real optimist you are.  I guess we'll just die out as soon as we've run out of oil, right?
I suppose you've never heard of lubricants (do NOT go there!)? That's the need that won't ever go away. However, if that's the only use we have for fossil fuel, then what reserves there are will last much, much longer.

Spearhead wrote:

I like Obamas plan the most (surprise, right?  jk).  Do limited drilling but make sure that drilling also comes in a package meant to increase alternate energy stuff.  They're not mutually exclusive.
There's very little substantive differences between the two campaigns' positions on domestic drilling and alternative energy development.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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