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2008-09-18 00:54:57
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6686|MN

CameronPoe wrote:

You implied 'free coddling' drove laziness.
I think in our society it does drive more laziness.  I don't know if it has to do with the size of population and thus the inability of the government to properly manage it, or just the sheer greediness we tend to display over here. 

Haven't been to Europe to witness the difference in our societies so I can't say which is better at the moment.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-09-18 01:21:58
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6861

LividBovine wrote:

Haven't been to Europe to witness the difference in our societies so I can't say which is better at the moment.
Neither society is 'better'. They're just different. 'Better' is purely down to personal preference.
2008-09-18 01:39:58
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6981|Canberra, AUS

LividBovine wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

You implied 'free coddling' drove laziness.
I think in our society it does drive more laziness.  I don't know if it has to do with the size of population and thus the inability of the government to properly manage it, or just the sheer greediness we tend to display over here. 

Haven't been to Europe to witness the difference in our societies so I can't say which is better at the moment.
The idea is that you give someone a big enough handout to get them out of the cycle but not big enough to live on.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2008-09-18 01:48:29
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6686|MN

Spark wrote:

LividBovine wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

You implied 'free coddling' drove laziness.
I think in our society it does drive more laziness.  I don't know if it has to do with the size of population and thus the inability of the government to properly manage it, or just the sheer greediness we tend to display over here. 

Haven't been to Europe to witness the difference in our societies so I can't say which is better at the moment.
The idea is that you give someone a big enough handout to get them out of the cycle but not big enough to live on.
I know what the idea is, but how do regulate how big the handout is?  Is it the same for everyone?  Who gets to determine if have gotten enough to get out of your jam or not?  Who determines if you are abusing the help? 
My point was that our society is not very well suited to a socialist style.  For various reasons.  We just have to be more careful about letting our greed run our country into the poor house.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-09-18 02:52:31
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6957|USA
Add to it, that no matter how much is given, there always seems to be an opinion that it is not enough and why, because he has something that I want, and it is not my fault that life isn't fair and I am unlucky so I should just be given one, ya know, to be fair.
2008-09-18 02:55:49
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6957|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. agree to disagree, for me the price is too high for a big brother security blanket.
Fair enough.

lowing wrote:

2. Wire taps on our enemies, yeah pretty outragous
Suspected enemies. We don't have secret lists where senators are on airline 'watch lists'. lol

lowing wrote:

3. I would rather shoot the fucker, but hey I guess being beaten to death with a cricket bat is more humane.
Unless he shoots you first.

lowing wrote:

4. Nope, our system is not perfect. Innocent deserving people probably slip through the cracks and do not get what they should. Also more going to the innocent and deserving is sacrificed while lazy leeches sponge the money that should be earmarked for them. Didn't say you were all lazy, I said it is sad that with all your free coddling you still have just as many lazy as we do here.
Neither is our system perfect. Your assertion was that everybody would be 'sucking the teet of the state' in our system whereas the level is not that much more than in a state where there is no teet to suck. You implied 'free coddling' drove laziness.
2. missed that one, whatcha talkin' about?

3. Then I suggest you arm yourself with something more of a longer range type weapon like oh I dunno, a gun? An intruder is more likely t obe surprised than a home owner, when the home owner is home I think.

4. In America free coddling does drive laziness. When you get out and vote for a president for no other reason than because he has you thinking you will get more from the taxpayer, that is lazy. When how much free ride you get is the burning issue over national security etc...then yeah, It is evident what is happening

Last edited by lowing (2008-09-18 02:58:51)

2008-09-18 03:17:57
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6861

lowing wrote:

2. missed that one, whatcha talkin' about?
Ted Kennedy was prevented from flying internal flights within the US because he was on a US terror watchlist. It seems your government decides who can and cannot fly, on rather questionable bases.

lowing wrote:

3. Then I suggest you arm yourself with something more of a longer range type weapon like oh I dunno, a gun? An intruder is more likely t obe surprised than a home owner, when the home owner is home I think.
If I was an intruder in the US I would be planning for the eventuality that I could face a life or death threat from the homeowner and arm myself/plan accordingly.

lowing wrote:

4. In America free coddling does drive laziness. When you get out and vote for a president for no other reason than because he has you thinking you will get more from the taxpayer, that is lazy. When how much free ride you get is the burning issue over national security etc...then yeah, It is evident what is happening
The proportion of lazy people in both the US and Europe is miniscule - they do not form a pivotal voting block. Almost everybody in both work for a living. Hardly anybody is looking for a free ride. They're looking for economic prosperity and a safe, secure, harmonious, sustainable society, from what I gather.

Having just come out of a presentation here at work on Peak Oil I can tell you that all of this is irrelevant - because WE ARE ALL ROYALLY FUCKED. Agrarian middle age living here we come.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-09-18 03:23:53)

2008-09-18 03:25:08
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6981|Canberra, AUS

LividBovine wrote:

Spark wrote:

LividBovine wrote:


I think in our society it does drive more laziness.  I don't know if it has to do with the size of population and thus the inability of the government to properly manage it, or just the sheer greediness we tend to display over here. 

Haven't been to Europe to witness the difference in our societies so I can't say which is better at the moment.
The idea is that you give someone a big enough handout to get them out of the cycle but not big enough to live on.
I know what the idea is, but how do regulate how big the handout is?  Is it the same for everyone?  Who gets to determine if have gotten enough to get out of your jam or not?  Who determines if you are abusing the help? 
My point was that our society is not very well suited to a socialist style.  For various reasons.  We just have to be more careful about letting our greed run our country into the poor house.
Which is what is happening at the moment (sort of - the middle class is not about to dive under the poverty line because of this).

I am saying, however, that a callous policy of those the bottom shouldn't get any assistance at all (which is what lowing is advocating unless I have misunderstood his words egregiously) is wrong.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2008-09-18 03:52:15
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6596|Éire
Hang on a minute lowing...

If Obama wanted to ride all the way to the White House on the promise of handouts for the lazy wouldn't he need a colossal voting bloc of unmotivated, unemployed layabouts in order to do so (but not so lazy that they can't be bothered to register themselves to vote of course!)? How many unemployed, registered voters does the US have? I wouldn't have thought it had enough to constitute a significant voting bloc?

Last edited by Braddock (2008-09-18 03:53:09)

2008-09-18 04:43:58
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,818|6412|eXtreme to the maX
When you get out and vote for a president for no other reason than because he has you thinking you will get more from the taxpayer, that is lazy. When how much free ride you get is the burning issue over national security etc...then yeah, It is evident what is happening
But thats what American corporations do, finance one party or the other in the expectation once elected their party will give them govt contracts, tax breaks, protectionism etc and serve the interests of their profits over national interest, security etc.

Lowing wrote:

Capitalism = Laziness
Dilbert_X is invincible! Let me hear you say it.
Fuck Israel
2008-09-18 04:50:35
jord
Member
+2,382|6984|The North, beyond the wall.
Why did this turn into a gun debate... As much as I love them.

If I was going to burgle a house in the US. Firstly, I would wait until the owners leave (You know, like everywhere else). Secondly, I would arm myself and plan accordingly, knowing that the home owner could have a pistol. I would take a shotgun. Then once the house has been burgled the home owner beefs up their weapons supply, in the form of a rifle.

And so the mini arms race continues. All the while people are getting shot to death for the sake of their 42" plasma tv and box set of "Absolutely Fabulous".

Last edited by jord (2008-09-18 04:51:26)

2008-09-18 10:14:01
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6957|USA

Spark wrote:

LividBovine wrote:

Spark wrote:


The idea is that you give someone a big enough handout to get them out of the cycle but not big enough to live on.
I know what the idea is, but how do regulate how big the handout is?  Is it the same for everyone?  Who gets to determine if have gotten enough to get out of your jam or not?  Who determines if you are abusing the help? 
My point was that our society is not very well suited to a socialist style.  For various reasons.  We just have to be more careful about letting our greed run our country into the poor house.
Which is what is happening at the moment (sort of - the middle class is not about to dive under the poverty line because of this).

I am saying, however, that a callous policy of those the bottom shouldn't get any assistance at all (which is what lowing is advocating unless I have misunderstood his words egregiously) is wrong.
Well Spark yeah you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Here it is again:

I pay enough taxes, there are plenty of grants, loans, handouts available to the "unlucky" already, I feel our tax dollars would be better spent on those that truely are "unlucky" IE handicapped children etc, rather than those that choose to not live by their own decisions or stupidity.

I do not want my govt. telling me, forcing me to pay EVEN MORE, for those are not taking advantage of what is already available. Nor do I want my govt. telling me that I will be forced into doing this because THEY decided I needed to be "nieghborly" and "nice".. Pretty much those things are my decisions to make and NOT my govt.'s
2008-09-18 10:17:05
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6957|USA

jord wrote:

Why did this turn into a gun debate... As much as I love them.

If I was going to burgle a house in the US. Firstly, I would wait until the owners leave (You know, like everywhere else). Secondly, I would arm myself and plan accordingly, knowing that the home owner could have a pistol. I would take a shotgun. Then once the house has been burgled the home owner beefs up their weapons supply, in the form of a rifle.

And so the mini arms race continues. All the while people are getting shot to death for the sake of their 42" plasma tv and box set of "Absolutely Fabulous".
So OBVIOUSLY the thing to do is just let someone rob you. That way, no one gets hurt and material possessions are not worth a life anyway. Not to mention the fact the cops should be there in 45 minutes to an hour to either A) tape off your body, or B) take a full report as to what happened.

Good stuff,
2008-09-18 10:21:05
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6806|so randum

lowing wrote:

jord wrote:

Why did this turn into a gun debate... As much as I love them.

If I was going to burgle a house in the US. Firstly, I would wait until the owners leave (You know, like everywhere else). Secondly, I would arm myself and plan accordingly, knowing that the home owner could have a pistol. I would take a shotgun. Then once the house has been burgled the home owner beefs up their weapons supply, in the form of a rifle.

And so the mini arms race continues. All the while people are getting shot to death for the sake of their 42" plasma tv and box set of "Absolutely Fabulous".
So OBVIOUSLY the thing to do is just let someone rob you. That way, no one gets hurt and material possessions are not worth a life anyway. Not to mention the fact the cops should be there in 45 minutes to an hour to either A) tape off your body, or B) take a full report as to what happened.

Good stuff,
home and contents insurance, read about it.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2008-09-18 10:24:12
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6957|USA

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

jord wrote:

Why did this turn into a gun debate... As much as I love them.

If I was going to burgle a house in the US. Firstly, I would wait until the owners leave (You know, like everywhere else). Secondly, I would arm myself and plan accordingly, knowing that the home owner could have a pistol. I would take a shotgun. Then once the house has been burgled the home owner beefs up their weapons supply, in the form of a rifle.

And so the mini arms race continues. All the while people are getting shot to death for the sake of their 42" plasma tv and box set of "Absolutely Fabulous".
So OBVIOUSLY the thing to do is just let someone rob you. That way, no one gets hurt and material possessions are not worth a life anyway. Not to mention the fact the cops should be there in 45 minutes to an hour to either A) tape off your body, or B) take a full report as to what happened.

Good stuff,
home and contents insurance, read about it.
^^^^ not a home owner and has not worked to build a quality of life. A complete lack of self respect if you d onot feel you have a life worth defending. I however feel I do.
2008-09-18 10:28:31
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6806|so randum

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:


So OBVIOUSLY the thing to do is just let someone rob you. That way, no one gets hurt and material possessions are not worth a life anyway. Not to mention the fact the cops should be there in 45 minutes to an hour to either A) tape off your body, or B) take a full report as to what happened.

Good stuff,
home and contents insurance, read about it.
^^^^ not a home owner and has not worked to build a quality of life. A complete lack of self respect if you d onot feel you have a life worth defending. I however feel I do.
I'm not a home owner so i can't have an opinion? take your head out your arse.

Ask yourself, what's more valuable, a 42' tv, or your fucking life.

Ohh, bravery, nobility, standing up for ones-self etc etc - All that means fuck all if you've been shot dead for stopping someone nicking your shit.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2008-09-18 10:34:55
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6957|USA

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

home and contents insurance, read about it.
^^^^ not a home owner and has not worked to build a quality of life. A complete lack of self respect if you d onot feel you have a life worth defending. I however feel I do.
I'm not a home owner so i can't have an opinion? take your head out your arse.

Ask yourself, what's more valuable, a 42' tv, or your fucking life.

Ohh, bravery, nobility, standing up for ones-self etc etc - All that means fuck all if you've been shot dead for stopping someone nicking your shit.
Not a home owner? Gee how did I know that?

I think I will take a pro-active part in my home defense instead of sit there like a passive fucking pussy and hope the big bad man who is breaking in does not hurt me.

Besides, my 42' tv is more valuable than the low life piece of shit that tries to break into my home to steal it.

It has nothing to do with bravery, it has everything to do with standing up for yourself. I know you would rather someone else do it for you, another personal responsibility issue I see, seems to be a pattern with people like you.

Last edited by lowing (2008-09-18 10:41:13)

2008-09-18 10:42:00
imortal
Member
+240|6971|Austin, TX

FatherTed wrote:

Ask yourself, what's more valuable, a 42' tv, or your fucking life.

Ohh, bravery, nobility, standing up for ones-self etc etc - All that means fuck all if you've been shot dead for stopping someone nicking your shit.
Are you going to stand there and offer suggesions as to what they should take next? Will you help them carry your TV into their van?  Cool!  What's you address again?  That is not stealing, it is just taking.  No risk.  After all, they know you aren't going to put up a fight, so they know you won't try to call the police until after they are gone.

Care to put a sign in your front yard that says "I will not offer violence to anyone breaking into my home"?

I will put a sign in my front yard that says "This home is protected by Smith & Wesson." 

Guess who's house will be robbed first?
2008-09-18 10:42:40
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6806|so randum

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:


^^^^ not a home owner and has not worked to build a quality of life. A complete lack of self respect if you d onot feel you have a life worth defending. I however feel I do.
I'm not a home owner so i can't have an opinion? take your head out your arse.

Ask yourself, what's more valuable, a 42' tv, or your fucking life.

Ohh, bravery, nobility, standing up for ones-self etc etc - All that means fuck all if you've been shot dead for stopping someone nicking your shit.
Not a home owner? Gee how did I know that?

I think I will take a pro-active part in my home defense instead of sit there like a passive fucking pussy and hope the big bad man does not hurt me.

Besides, my 42' tv is more valuable than the low life piece of shit that tries to break into my home to steal it.

It has nothing to do with bravery, it has everything to do with standing up for yourself. I know you would rather someone else do it for you, another personal responsibility issue I see, pattern with people like you.
You miss the point.


I'm quite happy to stand up for my self, but what IS THE FUCKING point in standing up for yourself, and putting yourself in a potentially life-threatening situation over GOODS WHICH CAN BE REPLACED BY INSURANCE and even if they weren't, are NOT WORTH LOSING MY LIFE OVER.

But hey, if you want to be the suicidal hero type, go for it.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2008-09-18 10:46:02
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6957|USA

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:


I'm not a home owner so i can't have an opinion? take your head out your arse.

Ask yourself, what's more valuable, a 42' tv, or your fucking life.

Ohh, bravery, nobility, standing up for ones-self etc etc - All that means fuck all if you've been shot dead for stopping someone nicking your shit.
Not a home owner? Gee how did I know that?

I think I will take a pro-active part in my home defense instead of sit there like a passive fucking pussy and hope the big bad man does not hurt me.

Besides, my 42' tv is more valuable than the low life piece of shit that tries to break into my home to steal it.

It has nothing to do with bravery, it has everything to do with standing up for yourself. I know you would rather someone else do it for you, another personal responsibility issue I see, pattern with people like you.
You miss the point.


I'm quite happy to stand up for my self, but what IS THE FUCKING point in standing up for yourself, and putting yourself in a potentially life-threatening situation over GOODS WHICH CAN BE REPLACED BY INSURANCE and even if they weren't, are NOT WORTH LOSING MY LIFE OVER.

But hey, if you want to be the suicidal hero type, go for it.
no, I think YOU missed the point..........Get back with me when you have aquired anything in your life worth defending, maybe even a family? Then tell me how none of it/them is worth protecting.
2008-09-18 10:46:31
imortal
Member
+240|6971|Austin, TX

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:


I'm not a home owner so i can't have an opinion? take your head out your arse.

Ask yourself, what's more valuable, a 42' tv, or your fucking life.

Ohh, bravery, nobility, standing up for ones-self etc etc - All that means fuck all if you've been shot dead for stopping someone nicking your shit.
Not a home owner? Gee how did I know that?

I think I will take a pro-active part in my home defense instead of sit there like a passive fucking pussy and hope the big bad man does not hurt me.

Besides, my 42' tv is more valuable than the low life piece of shit that tries to break into my home to steal it.

It has nothing to do with bravery, it has everything to do with standing up for yourself. I know you would rather someone else do it for you, another personal responsibility issue I see, pattern with people like you.
You miss the point.


I'm quite happy to stand up for my self, but what IS THE FUCKING point in standing up for yourself, and putting yourself in a potentially life-threatening situation over GOODS WHICH CAN BE REPLACED BY INSURANCE and even if they weren't, are NOT WORTH LOSING MY LIFE OVER.

But hey, if you want to be the suicidal hero type, go for it.
okay, so want are you willing to risk your life for?
2008-09-18 10:51:34
imortal
Member
+240|6971|Austin, TX

jord wrote:

If I was going to burgle a house in the US. Firstly, I would wait until the owners leave (You know, like everywhere else). Secondly, I would arm myself and plan accordingly, knowing that the home owner could have a pistol. I would take a shotgun. Then once the house has been burgled the home owner beefs up their weapons supply, in the form of a rifle.
Well, you would have fun with my alarm system.  While you wait for the police to arrive, you can oocupy yourself by trying to get into my two gun safes (which are bolted to the house); one with my unloaded firearms, and the other with my loaded pistol.

Also, here in Texas, carrying a firearm in the commssion of a crime adds about another 10-20 years to your sentance.
2008-09-18 11:01:35
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6806|so randum

imortal wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:


Not a home owner? Gee how did I know that?

I think I will take a pro-active part in my home defense instead of sit there like a passive fucking pussy and hope the big bad man does not hurt me.

Besides, my 42' tv is more valuable than the low life piece of shit that tries to break into my home to steal it.

It has nothing to do with bravery, it has everything to do with standing up for yourself. I know you would rather someone else do it for you, another personal responsibility issue I see, pattern with people like you.
You miss the point.


I'm quite happy to stand up for my self, but what IS THE FUCKING point in standing up for yourself, and putting yourself in a potentially life-threatening situation over GOODS WHICH CAN BE REPLACED BY INSURANCE and even if they weren't, are NOT WORTH LOSING MY LIFE OVER.

But hey, if you want to be the suicidal hero type, go for it.
okay, so want are you willing to risk your life for?
loved ones, and my country.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2008-09-18 11:03:50
imortal
Member
+240|6971|Austin, TX

FatherTed wrote:

imortal wrote:

FatherTed wrote:


You miss the point.


I'm quite happy to stand up for my self, but what IS THE FUCKING point in standing up for yourself, and putting yourself in a potentially life-threatening situation over GOODS WHICH CAN BE REPLACED BY INSURANCE and even if they weren't, are NOT WORTH LOSING MY LIFE OVER.

But hey, if you want to be the suicidal hero type, go for it.
okay, so want are you willing to risk your life for?
loved ones, and my country.
...but not yourself?
So, if your family was in the house and someone barged in armed you would offer violence (i.e. try to kill them back)?
2008-09-18 15:44:25
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6455|'straya

imortal wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

imortal wrote:


okay, so want are you willing to risk your life for?
loved ones, and my country.
...but not yourself?
So, if your family was in the house and someone barged in armed you would offer violence (i.e. try to kill them back)?
Just a little point here... around 90% of criminals would fuck off if they came into a house full of people.... unless they are really stupid they should be able to realise that 5 years for stealing could suddenly turn into life behind bars for murder (or mass murder). most criminals would just run away and try a house with no one in it.

In reality i would defend my family if he looked like he was going to hurt them. i dont have a gun in the house so that is based on the scenario that he has a gun. my house has been attempted to be robbed. guy jumos back fence trys to comes in backdoor. i see him grab a cricket bat run over there and his already piss bolted. that was an experience that made me glad that 50% of the population dont carry guns in australia

 

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