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2008-09-16 17:59:53
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

If I were an American I'd prefer a candidate who could make it through a war without getting shot down, captured, tortured or injured... you know, an actual war hero.

Not some guy who couldn't get the job done and subsequently decided to embark on a political career off of the back of his military failures.
Thank God it's not up to you to decide who we consider a war hero and who we don't.

The guy made O-6 and retired honorably. Hardly a "military failure".

Your characterization of what makes an "actual war hero" is ridiculous. He endured less than some, but far more than most. Like him or dislike him, but don't ridicule what he went through. Perhaps you should read up a bit on the individuals who didn't "make it through a war without getting shot down, captured, tortured or injured"...then compare that to those who did.
And to think people cry about the "wussification" of America!

Being shot down, killed or tortured does NOT make you a war hero. However, if these things happen to you while you are acting above and beyond the call of duty then yes, you ARE a hero. Heroism is not an everyday thing, it is not part of the "9 to 5" of military activity, it is not something that occurs while you are going through the numbers doing the job you signed up to do. Being shot down, tortured and killed are coincidental factors when it comes to heroism, not qualifying factors. The idea of handing out medals purely because someone gets injured is an extension of the philosophy of handing out ribbons to people who finish lower then third place in a race. Just stick your medals up your arse and pay the soldier's medical bills. Heroes are people who do things, not have things happen to them.

Military heroes do exist and John McCain can even be described as one... but not because he shot down and captured.
Who ever said he was a hero because he was shot down and captured? It was his actions after being shot down and captured that many characterize as heroic.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-09-16 18:09:45
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6685|MN

FEOS wrote:

Who ever said he was a hero because he was shot down and captured? It was his actions after being shot down and captured that many characterize as heroic.
He was only following those simple orders as well as any simpleton would be expected to.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-09-16 18:11:34
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6798|Connecticut

Braddock wrote:

Spare me the "I served in combat" bullshit, everyone is entitled to an opinion when it comes to fundamental principles and concepts.
There is nothing fundamental about combat Braddock. You would know if you have engaged in it.

Braddock wrote:

In the mission where he was shot down and captured he failed his objective.

Braddock wrote:

I'll spell it out for you if you're having difficulty with what I'm saying...
Let me spell something out for you because I don't think you quite get it. The enemy shoots back and when they achieve their objective your new objective is to sacrifice your life knowing you will be tortured. It's called a secondary objective, ok. He succeeded in it by subjecting himself to 5 1/2 years of pain and suffering and did not let the enemy have any information. It is kind of why the military trains its personel for situations like those.
Malloy must go
2008-09-16 18:52:16
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

In the mission where he was shot down and captured he failed his objective.
And just how, pray tell, do you know this? Do you know what his objective was?

Here's a hint: It wasn't to "not get shot down". His objective was to bomb whatever target he was given. You have no clue whether he achieved that objective or not.

Here's what wiki says happened:

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane attack against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi[89][90] that previously had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids due to the possibility of collateral damage.[87] As he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk alerted him that he was being tracked by enemy fire-control radar.[91] He held his dive until he released his bombs at about 3,500 feet (1,000 meters)[92] (he was later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for this day).[86] As he started to pull up, the Skyhawk's wing was blown off by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile fired by the North Vietnamese Air Defense Command's 61st Battalion.
So, let's see...he achieved his objective and was shot down because he disregarded his own safety (and paid for it dearly) in order to achieve that objective. Yeah...he's a total pussy.

Last edited by FEOS (2008-09-16 18:55:50)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-09-17 03:24:45
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6596|Éire

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Thank God it's not up to you to decide who we consider a war hero and who we don't.

The guy made O-6 and retired honorably. Hardly a "military failure".

Your characterization of what makes an "actual war hero" is ridiculous. He endured less than some, but far more than most. Like him or dislike him, but don't ridicule what he went through. Perhaps you should read up a bit on the individuals who didn't "make it through a war without getting shot down, captured, tortured or injured"...then compare that to those who did.
And to think people cry about the "wussification" of America!

Being shot down, killed or tortured does NOT make you a war hero. However, if these things happen to you while you are acting above and beyond the call of duty then yes, you ARE a hero. Heroism is not an everyday thing, it is not part of the "9 to 5" of military activity, it is not something that occurs while you are going through the numbers doing the job you signed up to do. Being shot down, tortured and killed are coincidental factors when it comes to heroism, not qualifying factors. The idea of handing out medals purely because someone gets injured is an extension of the philosophy of handing out ribbons to people who finish lower then third place in a race. Just stick your medals up your arse and pay the soldier's medical bills. Heroes are people who do things, not have things happen to them.

Military heroes do exist and John McCain can even be described as one... but not because he shot down and captured.
Who ever said he was a hero because he was shot down and captured? It was his actions after being shot down and captured that many characterize as heroic.
And I would find it very hard to argue with you against that FEOS. Part of my point is that all his camp ever seem to go on about is the being shot down/tortured aspect, they should play up the positive aspect of his reaction to captivity more and stop playing the sympathy card.
2008-09-17 03:34:25
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6596|Éire

deeznutz1245 wrote:

There is nothing fundamental about combat Braddock. You would know if you have engaged in it.
So you are claiming there is nothing fundamental about combat? The concept of survival, no? I'd have thought that was pretty fundamental to combat. And beyond that what about the concept of looking out for your fellow troops in the field? I would have thought that too was pretty fundamental to combat. Just because combat can be chaotic it does not mean it does not have fundamental aspects to it. Everything in life has fundamental aspects to it.

Braddock wrote:

In the mission where he was shot down and captured he failed his objective.

deeznutz1245 wrote:

Let me spell something out for you because I don't think you quite get it. The enemy shoots back and when they achieve their objective your new objective is to sacrifice your life knowing you will be tortured. It's called a secondary objective, ok. He succeeded in it by subjecting himself to 5 1/2 years of pain and suffering and did not let the enemy have any information. It is kind of why the military trains its personel for situations like those.
So you're admitting he failed his primary objective? Thank you.

You say he succeeded in his secondary objective and showed incredible strength and conviction in his efforts? Well then for that he can definitely be described as a hero, I'm sure all his fellow POW's would surely consider him one. Perhaps everyone should go on about this a bit more and stop dragging his name through the mud by continually going on about how he failed his primary objective (seen as it has nothing to do with his heroism).
2008-09-17 03:44:00
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6596|Éire

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

In the mission where he was shot down and captured he failed his objective.
And just how, pray tell, do you know this? Do you know what his objective was?

Here's a hint: It wasn't to "not get shot down". His objective was to bomb whatever target he was given. You have no clue whether he achieved that objective or not.

Here's what wiki says happened:

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane attack against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi[89][90] that previously had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids due to the possibility of collateral damage.[87] As he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk alerted him that he was being tracked by enemy fire-control radar.[91] He held his dive until he released his bombs at about 3,500 feet (1,000 meters)[92] (he was later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for this day).[86] As he started to pull up, the Skyhawk's wing was blown off by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile fired by the North Vietnamese Air Defense Command's 61st Battalion.
So, let's see...he achieved his objective and was shot down because he disregarded his own safety (and paid for it dearly) in order to achieve that objective. Yeah...he's a total pussy.
Let's get something straight here FEOS. No one is calling McCain a pussy. Don't try and put words in my mouth. Anyone who puts on a uniform and leaves the comfort of the base for actual combat is no pussy.

I'm sorry I would have thought a pilot's objective would be to strike their targets and return the plane/jet back to base in order for it to be used on further missions?

You've inadvertently struck on an interesting point here. Heroism is very specific to a particular society (in military terms at least). McCain is an "American Hero", that much it would seem is clear. He is definitely not a hero in any objective sense of the word... because "objective heroes" do not exist. A pilot who flies a jet and strikes 'enemy' targets in Vietnam may be a hero to the American people. However, a pilot who flies a jet that blows up a Vietnamese village and most of the people in it is a villain to the Vietnamese (hence why McCain met with a rather hostile reaction on landing). In the same way I'm sure the Russian's had many "hero" pilots in the Afghanistan war.
2008-09-17 03:48:29
Kuffar
Member
+11|6019

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

In the mission where he was shot down and captured he failed his objective.
And just how, pray tell, do you know this? Do you know what his objective was?

Here's a hint: It wasn't to "not get shot down". His objective was to bomb whatever target he was given. You have no clue whether he achieved that objective or not.

Here's what wiki says happened:

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane attack against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi[89][90] that previously had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids due to the possibility of collateral damage.[87] As he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk alerted him that he was being tracked by enemy fire-control radar.[91] He held his dive until he released his bombs at about 3,500 feet (1,000 meters)[92] (he was later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for this day).[86] As he started to pull up, the Skyhawk's wing was blown off by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile fired by the North Vietnamese Air Defense Command's 61st Battalion.
So, let's see...he achieved his objective and was shot down because he disregarded his own safety (and paid for it dearly) in order to achieve that objective. Yeah...he's a total pussy.
Let's get something straight here FEOS. No one is calling McCain a pussy. Don't try and put words in my mouth. Anyone who puts on a uniform and leaves the comfort of the base for actual combat is no pussy.

I'm sorry I would have thought a pilot's objective would be to strike their targets and return the plane/jet back to base in order for it to be used on further missions?

You've inadvertently struck on an interesting point here. Heroism is very specific to a particular society (in military terms at least). McCain is an "American Hero", that much it would seem is clear. He is definitely not a hero in any objective sense of the word... because "objective heroes" do not exist. A pilot who flies a jet and strikes 'enemy' targets in Vietnam may be a hero to the American people. However, a pilot who flies a jet that blows up a Vietnamese village and most of the people in it is a villain to the Vietnamese (hence why McCain met with a rather hostile reaction on landing). In the same way I'm sure the Russian's had many "hero" pilots in the Afghanistan war.
You will find I think that those who fight and risk death for their countries often respect their enemies despite trying to kill them. Military men rarely call each other heroes because they know what it means to be one. That doesn't mean that self-sacrifice is not objectively heroic.

Last edited by Kuffar (2008-09-17 03:49:20)

2008-09-17 04:02:01
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6596|Éire

Kuffar wrote:

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

In the mission where he was shot down and captured he failed his objective.
And just how, pray tell, do you know this? Do you know what his objective was?

Here's a hint: It wasn't to "not get shot down". His objective was to bomb whatever target he was given. You have no clue whether he achieved that objective or not.

Here's what wiki says happened:


So, let's see...he achieved his objective and was shot down because he disregarded his own safety (and paid for it dearly) in order to achieve that objective. Yeah...he's a total pussy.
Let's get something straight here FEOS. No one is calling McCain a pussy. Don't try and put words in my mouth. Anyone who puts on a uniform and leaves the comfort of the base for actual combat is no pussy.

I'm sorry I would have thought a pilot's objective would be to strike their targets and return the plane/jet back to base in order for it to be used on further missions?

You've inadvertently struck on an interesting point here. Heroism is very specific to a particular society (in military terms at least). McCain is an "American Hero", that much it would seem is clear. He is definitely not a hero in any objective sense of the word... because "objective heroes" do not exist. A pilot who flies a jet and strikes 'enemy' targets in Vietnam may be a hero to the American people. However, a pilot who flies a jet that blows up a Vietnamese village and most of the people in it is a villain to the Vietnamese (hence why McCain met with a rather hostile reaction on landing). In the same way I'm sure the Russian's had many "hero" pilots in the Afghanistan war.
You will find I think that those who fight and risk death for their countries often respect their enemies despite trying to kill them. Military men rarely call each other heroes because they know what it means to be one. That doesn't mean that self-sacrifice is not objectively heroic.
You have also hit on another important point here. "Hero" is often just a nice name for someone who has unfortunately suffered something terrible in the field of combat.
2008-09-17 04:03:29
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6927|London, England
I guess we can't really judge until we've gone through whatever the 'hero' has gone through.
2008-09-17 04:18:04
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6927|London, England
Wait



I thought this was that hero topic



you guys, stick to the topics, I'm getting confused here

https://meow.catsplz.com/cats/pictures/339/srsly-u-guys.jpg
2008-09-17 04:20:07
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7067

oh come on MEK, you know why he made it.
2008-09-17 13:50:43
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6995|Tampa Bay Florida

FEOS wrote:

It was his actions after being shot down and captured that many characterize as heroic.
The fact that McCain and the GOP mention it every other day says the exact opposite.

He should've just left his service out of the campaign.  Same goes for Kerry.
2008-09-17 16:25:16
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

Let's get something straight here FEOS. No one is calling McCain a pussy. Don't try and put words in my mouth. Anyone who puts on a uniform and leaves the comfort of the base for actual combat is no pussy.
I realize you didn't say he was a pussy...I was being just a tad sarcastic.

Braddock wrote:

I'm sorry I would have thought a pilot's objective would be to strike their targets and return the plane/jet back to base in order for it to be used on further missions?
The objective is to hit the target. Everything else is secondary. You said he failed to achieve his objective. That is not true.

Braddock wrote:

You've inadvertently struck on an interesting point here. Heroism is very specific to a particular society (in military terms at least). McCain is an "American Hero", that much it would seem is clear. He is definitely not a hero in any objective sense of the word... because "objective heroes" do not exist. A pilot who flies a jet and strikes 'enemy' targets in Vietnam may be a hero to the American people. However, a pilot who flies a jet that blows up a Vietnamese village and most of the people in it is a villain to the Vietnamese (hence why McCain met with a rather hostile reaction on landing). In the same way I'm sure the Russian's had many "hero" pilots in the Afghanistan war.
McCain didn't bomb a village, he bombed a power plant. However, your point about the subjectivity of "hero" is absolutely true. But you are still referring to his actions prior to his shootdown, capture, and torture when describing the characteristics that would make him a hero. It's not those actions that people talk about when calling him a hero...it is his actions as a POW (after his shootdown and capture). Those actions separate him from the other pilots who didn't have to got through what he and his fellow prisoners did.

So, in that regard, it's not entirely subjective. If there were a Russian pilot who had been captured by the Muj and lived to tell about it (highly unlikely), and assuming he had behaved honorably, he could easily be viewed objectively as at least somewhat heroic due to his actions while in that unusual situation.

Spearhead wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It was his actions after being shot down and captured that many characterize as heroic.
The fact that McCain and the GOP mention it every other day says the exact opposite.
They mention his time as a POW, not the events leading up to it...so not so much.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-09-17 16:27:12
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6995|Tampa Bay Florida

FEOS wrote:

They mention his time as a POW, not the events leading up to it...so not so much.
Every other ad on TV I see McCain in uniform.  Every radio ad they call him a war hero.
2008-09-17 16:31:07
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

Spearhead wrote:

FEOS wrote:

They mention his time as a POW, not the events leading up to it...so not so much.
Every other ad on TV I see McCain in uniform.  Every radio ad they call him a war hero.
And again, they are talking about his time as a POW. Not like there's a lot of pictures from inside the Hanoi Hilton.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-09-17 16:34:08
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6995|Tampa Bay Florida

FEOS wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

FEOS wrote:

They mention his time as a POW, not the events leading up to it...so not so much.
Every other ad on TV I see McCain in uniform.  Every radio ad they call him a war hero.
And again, they are talking about his time as a POW. Not like there's a lot of pictures from inside the Hanoi Hilton.
Why make it part of the campaign though?  You have to be living in a closet if you dont know McCains history by know.  Why tell the informed people what they already know in ads?  Maybe because they're trying to snatch uninformed voters?
2008-09-17 16:43:07
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

Spearhead wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

Every other ad on TV I see McCain in uniform.  Every radio ad they call him a war hero.
And again, they are talking about his time as a POW. Not like there's a lot of pictures from inside the Hanoi Hilton.
Why make it part of the campaign though?  You have to be living in a closet if you dont know McCains history by know.  Why tell the informed people what they already know in ads?  Maybe because they're trying to snatch uninformed voters?
Could be. Why do campaigns keep repeating the same slogans over and over, if people already know them?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-09-17 20:30:30
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6906|132 and Bush

When are these 527's going to realize thy do more damage than good?
Xbone Stormsurgezz

 

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