FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6499|so randum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/db/Eichmann.jpg/150px-Eichmann.jpg

wikipedia wrote:

Otto Adolf Eichmann (March 19, 1906–May 31, 1962), sometimes referred to as "the architect of the Holocaust", was a Nazi and SS-Obersturmbannführer (equivalent to Lieutenant Colonel). Due to his organizational talents and ideological reliability, he was charged by Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich with the task of facilitating and managing the logistics of mass deportation of Jews to ghettos and extermination camps in Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe. After the war, he traveled to Argentina using a fraudulently obtained laissez-passer issued by the International Red Cross[1][2] and lived there under a false identity working for Mercedes-Benz until the 1960s. He was captured by Israeli Mossad agents in Argentina and tried in Israeli court on fifteen criminal charges, including crimes against humanity and war crimes. He was convicted and hanged in 1962.
Earlier this year i researched into Nazi Germany und so weiter as part of my German studies, and this man interested me in particular.

To cut short, he was in charge of the logistics and general day to day running of the infamous Nazi (NSDAP) concentration camps throughout Europe during WWII. Although he never physically released the gas/shot a prisoner etc, he can be tied in part to the death of around 70% of people killed in the concentration camps (as run by the NSDAP partei)

Following the fall of Nazi Germany, he fled, eventually ending up in Argentina. From the he was captured and extradited to Israel by Mossad, was tried for various crimes (mostly war crimes), and eventually hung.




And follows the main point:

His defense was mainly "I was only following orders".

His follow-through of these orders led to the death of countless people, a definite reason for the death penalty - few would argue.

But how does his defense "I was only following orders" hold? In his defense, if he hadn't have micromanaged the operation of aforementioned camps, someone else would have simply stepped into the role. The fact is, whoever was appointed, the task would still have been carried out.

Therefore, was it right to carry out capital punishment upon this man? Or should the blame have lied upon his superiors?


My mind is already made up, this is something i have read far into. I am simply playing Devil's Advocate.
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lowing
Banned
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I think that probably this man as well as many others under Hitler would have been executed if they did not do what they were told to do. So a defense of being forced to carry out these orders could be a fair defense.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6646
If you don't like your orders you can always not follow them.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6499|so randum

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

If you don't like your orders you can always not follow them.
And be killed, and have the next man do the job instead?

Again, i play the advocate.
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lowing
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Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

If you don't like your orders you can always not follow them.
Yeah, pretty cut and dry huh? Except for the "you will be executed if you don't" thing.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6152|what

lowing wrote:

I think that probably this man as well as many others under Hitler would have been executed if they did not do what they were told to do. So a defense of being forced to carry out these orders could be a fair defense.
Fair defense?

Total bullshit lowing.

He was not the only person to use that defense.

A soldier knows what is right or wrong. This man knew what was right or wrong. He did it anyway.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

Following orders is not an acceptable excuse in my mind, or any other sane persons.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6646
Theres such a thing as fleeing.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6499|so randum

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Theres such a thing as fleeing.
If he fled during the Nazi regime, he wouldn't have got far. It would have been akin to signing his own death warrant.
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lowing
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TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

I think that probably this man as well as many others under Hitler would have been executed if they did not do what they were told to do. So a defense of being forced to carry out these orders could be a fair defense.
Fair defense?

Total bullshit lowing.

He was not the only person to use that defense.

A soldier knows what is right or wrong. This man knew what was right or wrong. He did it anyway.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

Following orders is not an acceptable excuse in my mind, or any other sane persons.
Well, after reading the book that I mentioned the other day, there were plenty of Japanese soldiers that unlawfully executed POW's. It is a fact that they would have been killed for disobeying the order to do so. They really had no choice but to carry it out.

So yes it is a "fair defense". Meaning it should be a considersation as part of the facts of the case when passing judgement.

I do like your quote "Evil prevails when good men do nothing"

I would counter that notion, that Evil might prevail for the moment as good retreats to live to fight another day.

Last edited by lowing (2008-08-11 19:09:46)

AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6152|what

Would you have killed innocent civilians inside a prison camp if so ordered ted?

Don't say you can never tell what it would be like, because your smart enough to know.

If the "I was only following orders" defense was acceptable, Hitler would be the only person accountable.

Goering. Gobbles. Himmler. They issued orders, but we all know they were given orders too.

The moment that becomes an excusable defense, is when the guilty go free.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6646

FatherTed wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Theres such a thing as fleeing.
If he fled during the Nazi regime, he wouldn't have got far. It would have been akin to signing his own death warrant.
Given that his other option is to manage the extermination of a couple million people I don't see any other choice than to not follow orders.
lowing
Banned
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TheAussieReaper wrote:

Would you have killed innocent civilians inside a prison camp if so ordered ted?

Don't say you can never tell what it would be like, because your smart enough to know.

If the "I was only following orders" defense was acceptable, Hitler would be the only person accountable.

Goering. Gobbles. Himmler. They issued orders, but we all know they were given orders too.

The moment that becomes an excusable defense, is when the guilty go free.
I tell you now, that I bow to the possibility that with a gun to my head, I could be coherced into doing things I normally would not do, or would consider the right thing to do.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6152|what

lowing wrote:

So yes it is a "fair defense". Meaning it should be a considersation as part of the facts of the case when passing judgement.
That's not good enough. You can't expect soldiers to blindly follow orders and not accept the consequences. They didn't sign up to torture, rape and molest. That is the sad reality of war, but it doesn't make it acceptable.

lowing wrote:

I do like your quote "Evil prevails when good men do nothing"

I would counter that notion, that Evil might prevail for the moment as good retreats to live to fight another day.
Evil shouldn't have the chance to hide behind orders.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6650|USA

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

So yes it is a "fair defense". Meaning it should be a considersation as part of the facts of the case when passing judgement.
That's not good enough. You can't expect soldiers to blindly follow orders and not accept the consequences. They didn't sign up to torture, rape and molest. That is the sad reality of war, but it doesn't make it acceptable.

lowing wrote:

I do like your quote "Evil prevails when good men do nothing"

I would counter that notion, that Evil might prevail for the moment as good retreats to live to fight another day.
Evil shouldn't have the chance to hide behind orders.
They were not "blindly" following orders, they were exercising the basic instinct of self preservation
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6152|what

lowing wrote:

I tell you now, that I bow to the possibility that with a gun to my head, I could be coherced into doing things I normally would not do, or would consider the right thing to do.
The gun held to a soldiers head isn't the same as the one your imagining. At what point would you not accept an order and gladly face death rather than carrying out the will of a mad man?

Killing a woman? A child? An entire family, perhaps?

How about exterminating a whole village?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6714|US
No, you cannot use obedience to excuse yourself.  Murdering millions is wrong, and he knew it.

If he had tried the "I was forced" argument, he might have had a shot at some leniency (not likely).
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6499|so randum

RAIMIUS wrote:

No, you cannot use obedience to excuse yourself.  Murdering millions is wrong, and he knew it.

If he had tried the "I was forced" argument, he might have had a shot at some leniency (not likely).
he did try the "i was forced (albeit with other words), and physically, he didn't murder anyone.
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Turquoise
O Canada
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After a war as horrid as WW2, I'd say executing Eichmann was a great way to make an example out of him.  Victors make the rules, and part of that involves eliminating the top tiers of your fallen enemy.

Eichmann's execution (among many others) was needed to avenge the horrors of the Holocaust.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6689|Tampa Bay Florida

lowing wrote:

I think that probably this man as well as many others under Hitler would have been executed if they did not do what they were told to do. So a defense of being forced to carry out these orders could be a fair defense.
Nope.

You should hold a revolt or die rather than follow illegal orders.  (legal as in, human rights, genocide etc)

Last edited by Spearhead (2008-08-11 21:15:44)

imortal
Member
+240|6664|Austin, TX

pierro wrote:

milgram experiments anyone?
Beat me to it!
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6404|North Carolina

imortal wrote:

pierro wrote:

milgram experiments anyone?
Beat me to it!
In certain ways, one could argue that the Milgram experiments were the strongest argument against democracy one could propose.  When looking at how sheep-like most people really are, it directs serious doubts toward the concept of rule by the will of the majority.  Granted, I suppose they could also be used to demonstrate just how important good leadership is because of how much the average sheep depends on it for direction.
Roger Lesboules
Ah ben tabarnak!
+316|6576|Abitibi-Temiscamingue. Québec!

pierro wrote:

milgram experiments anyone?
Exactly what i tho about, just didnt remembered the name.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6664|NT, like Mick Dundee

Spearhead wrote:

lowing wrote:

I think that probably this man as well as many others under Hitler would have been executed if they did not do what they were told to do. So a defense of being forced to carry out these orders could be a fair defense.
Nope.

You should hold a revolt or die rather than follow illegal orders.  (legal as in, human rights, genocide etc)
Funny that. Most of the stuff that went down during WW2 was made legal afterward. Things such as carpet bombing civillian cities.


The ultimate defence at the Neuremburg trials was to prove that an allied commander had committed the same 'crime'.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6361|Vancouver
As much as I can recall, largely the enlisted German soldier was, in most cases, not required to carry out the actions of murder that were usually performed by the killing squads (for the life of me, I cannot remember the German term for the squads at the moment). They would simply be reassigned to different areas. On the other hand, the SS, and especially Eichmann's division, were responsible for committing such acts purposely. As well, as an officer of high rank in the SS, he did not have the choice as a Heer soldier did.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6689|Tampa Bay Florida

Flecco wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

lowing wrote:

I think that probably this man as well as many others under Hitler would have been executed if they did not do what they were told to do. So a defense of being forced to carry out these orders could be a fair defense.
Nope.

You should hold a revolt or die rather than follow illegal orders.  (legal as in, human rights, genocide etc)
Funny that. Most of the stuff that went down during WW2 was made legal afterward. Things such as carpet bombing civillian cities.


The ultimate defence at the Neuremburg trials was to prove that an allied commander had committed the same 'crime'.
Of course.

War crimes mean nothing unless they are applied to both sides consistently (to both allies and opponents).

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