imortal
Member
+240|6811|Austin, TX
okay, as to what happened to all that steel.  Look at those pictures Kmarion posted above.  I mean, take a good look at them and reference them during the reading of my post.  Also, I want you to remmber scale.
Now, look at this photo of the construction of the WTC:
https://www.mymedialibrary.com/WTC/SouthTower.jpg
I want you to note a couple of things; first the design of the outer support columns.  Second, the color of the steel in the construction.  Now, go back to the Ground Zero photos above.  Do you notice that brown 'latticework?"  That is not facade, that is the steel of the outer columns.  All those brown bars would be the steel of the internal core.  Also, Kmarion is correct in another regard.  Those steel beams were brought in in pieces and riveted together (for the most part).  The support columns are not a single length of steel going 100+ floors up.  But REALLY look at those photos; just remember, grey=concrete, brown=steel. 

Why do I keep harping on scale?  Because we tend to forget these things looking at photographs.  Look at the cranes on the ground, then try to recall how large they are up close.  Look at the nearby buildings to see how many floors up the rubble is sitting.

Also, one more thing.  The more you apply a critical eye to the 'controlled demolition' theory, the less it seems plausible.  How exactly do you suggest the outer columns be "demolished"(explosively cut) without being obviously noticed, since they are pretty much the outside of the building? 

Last, skorp, you are asking a lot of questions but you seldom aknowlege points.  Do you have a rebuttal to the manpower requirement for any possible 'controlled demolition?'  Specifically, how did the amount of manpower needed, the prep time needed, and the prepatory work for all of the explosives go unnoticed?  How did these hypothetical explosives survive the plane crash in order to bring the building down?  How did the teams know exactly where to place the explosives, given that the collapse began at the crash site?
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Whilst much of what you say is true, firstly I question your guestimates of what proportion of the towers were pulverized, relatively speaking, into dust and secondly, we have to consider the conservation of energy.

1. As the concrete crumbled it must absorb energy, thereby removing energy from the impact that causes it to crumble.
2. As much damage and crumbling will be inflicted upon the falling mass of concrete as the mass of concrete it impacts on.
3. As the large solid mass breaks up, it does so into separate individual 'particles' (of varying mass) that can not then be treated as a single body of mass, but must be treated as separate mass bodies.
4. As the dust cloud expelled from the towers, less and less mass will have fallen on the remaining intact structure.

These facts combine to rapidly reduce the impact energy of the falling debris. Making it less and less likely that the structure would have crumbled as the mass got closer and closer to the ground.

I dunno, maybe if you run the figures it all calculates out to give enough sustained impact energy to totally demolish the towers from top down, but it seems unlikely to me.

If they'd have collapsed from bottom up, then that would be a different matter - as the intact, single body of mass would then have easily maintained enough impact energy to disintegrate on impact with the ground - this is why most demolitions are carried out bottom-to-top - that way nature lends a hand.
What's your beef with the "guesstimates" of the proportion that was pulverized? Do you think it was higher or lower?

You speak of conservation of energy, but you seem to ignore conservation of mass...they go hand in hand.
Yes, believe me, I am fully aware of the conservation of mass, but, it looked to be a much much higher proportion than 0.25% (which was your guesstimate, was it not) of the entire mass of the towers was, relatively speaking, reduced to dust and expelled away from the remaining intact structure - I would up your guestimates by at least a factor of 10, if not 100.

Look at Kmarions post, with the pics - what do you see? mostly steel. So, children, where did all the concrete go? Oh, yeah, that's right, that was the big-ass cloud of concrete dust.

@imortal - I'll answer your points when I have the time - sorry, but I don't spend all day sitting here thinking up arguments...

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-07-25 06:00:04)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6557|'Murka

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

What's your beef with the "guesstimates" of the proportion that was pulverized? Do you think it was higher or lower?

You speak of conservation of energy, but you seem to ignore conservation of mass...they go hand in hand.
Yes, believe me, I am fully aware of the conservation of mass, but, it looked to be a much much higher proportion than 0.25% (which was your guesstimate, was it not) of the entire mass of the towers was, relatively speaking, reduced to dust and expelled away from the remaining intact structure - I would up your guestimates by at least a factor of 10, if not 100.
No, it was not. But I agree with the orders of magnitude imortal (or whoever it was) was getting at.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Look at Kmarions post, with the pics - what do you see? mostly steel. So, children, where did all the concrete go? Oh, yeah, that's right, that was the big-ass cloud of concrete dust.
What's the difference in density between steel and concrete, children? Can you say "orders of magnitude"? Can you say "that equates to orders of magnitude more mass of steel than concrete"? Can you say "that's why you see more steel than concrete"?

Look at the pics. What's all that mess laying around that's not steel? That would be the concrete and other materials that made up the building, kids. Notice how it's not "blown out" as a cloud of concrete dust.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6831|United States of America
I'd like to know where you are trying to go with this steel bit anyway. You seem to want to claim that it was either not all there, or removed.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

What's your beef with the "guesstimates" of the proportion that was pulverized? Do you think it was higher or lower?

You speak of conservation of energy, but you seem to ignore conservation of mass...they go hand in hand.
Yes, believe me, I am fully aware of the conservation of mass, but, it looked to be a much much higher proportion than 0.25% (which was your guesstimate, was it not) of the entire mass of the towers was, relatively speaking, reduced to dust and expelled away from the remaining intact structure - I would up your guestimates by at least a factor of 10, if not 100.
No, it was not. But I agree with the orders of magnitude imortal (or whoever it was) was getting at.
Ah, ok, sry, imortals guestimates, or whomevers they were, the exact source does not matter.

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Look at Kmarions post, with the pics - what do you see? mostly steel. So, children, where did all the concrete go? Oh, yeah, that's right, that was the big-ass cloud of concrete dust.
What's the difference in density between steel and concrete, children? Can you say "orders of magnitude"? Can you say "that equates to orders of magnitude more mass of steel than concrete"? Can you say "that's why you see more steel than concrete"?

Look at the pics. What's all that mess laying around that's not steel? That would be the concrete and other materials that made up the building, kids. Notice how it's not "blown out" as a cloud of concrete dust.
Our guestimates about the comparative mass of concrete vs steel then comes down to our guestimates about these comparative volumes.

We must remember that steel, primarily due to its higher density, is much much stronger than concrete, hence a relatively small volume of steel can be used to reinforce a massive block of concrete.

Therefore, in kmarions provided photos we should see a far greater volume of concrete than steel.

Again, I ask, where's all that concrete?

Now this is where we stray from pure objective reasoning into subjectivity - you see no evidence of the ejection of a 'cloud' of mass. I see plenty.

Our guestimates of the comparative mass of steel and concrete can only ever be that, guestimates, without seeing precise construction details.

Some say 0.25%, I say at least 10 to 100 times more than that.

And where's that evidence of ejected matter?

It's all over the roofs of the surrounding building, in those photos of the aftermath.

And it's in the massive cloud of dust that chased people down the streets, turning everything a uniform grey, that can all to clearly be seen in the news footage of the collapse.

DesertFox wrote:

I'd like to know where you are trying to go with this steel bit anyway. You seem to want to claim that it was either not all there, or removed.
No, no, as I already stated I am not a full-blown nut-job conspiracy theorist (though yes, I can and have provided a plausible explanation that fits all the available evidence, including those parts that appear to suggest conspiracy).

For me at least, the current discussion about the comparative mass and volume of the steel and concrete that made up the two towers is all about the physics of what happen - was there enough energy in the system to explain the collapse? or would more energy be needed?

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-07-26 07:57:55)

God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6490|tropical regions of london
this thread needs a quarantine
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

God Save the Queen wrote:

this thread needs a quarantine
If you don't want to partake in the discussion, then don't.

It's that simple.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6369|Escea

HurricaИe wrote:

jews did 9/11

edit: I haven't read through all 17 pages, but maybe WTC 7 was demolished by the government. That doesn't make it a conspiracy or anything; it could have been a safety procedure for all I know. Better to have it come down in a controlled manner than let it tumble over whichever way it wants.
That's actually the only instance I could see them blowing it up intentionally, I mean a building gutted by fire isn't going to be structually safe and is probably better to bring down.

But as for the whole, 'charges in the wall let's blow up an important building for no reason' theory goes, well, its ludicrous to the upmost extreme of extreme's imo.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

HurricaИe wrote:

jews did 9/11

usmarine2 wrote:

needs moar cowbell tbh
Also duly reported.

HurricaNe wrote:

edit: I haven't read through all 17 pages, but maybe WTC 7 was demolished by the government. That doesn't make it a conspiracy or anything; it could have been a safety procedure for all I know. Better to have it come down in a controlled manner than let it tumble over whichever way it wants.
Now, this is part of my reasoning.

Is a controlled demolition plausible?

Yes, it is - complete control over the events that take place is always preferential.

And there's plenty of evidence that the US intelligence agencies at least suspected something might happen.
usmarine2
Banned
+233|5937|Dublin, Ohio

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Also duly reported.
report on my fist
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6490|tropical regions of london
scorpion is a douche.  report that.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

M.O.A.B wrote:

But as for the whole, 'charges in the wall let's blow up an important building for no reason' theory goes, well, its ludicrous to the upmost extreme of extreme's imo.
This is where I think many peoples critical thinking goes wrong.

They may ask themselves "is it plausable?" and "what reasons would there be?" and they either come back with "no reason" or they "can see reasons".

Now, once you start to accept that there is indeed reasons why one might want to put in place a plan to demolish the towers in a controlled manner after such an event, the mind then starts reeling - "would our government sacrifice the lives of thousands of people like that????".

Yes, it would, and it does.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6369|Escea

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

But as for the whole, 'charges in the wall let's blow up an important building for no reason' theory goes, well, its ludicrous to the upmost extreme of extreme's imo.
This is where I think many peoples critical thinking goes wrong.

They may ask themselves "is it plausable?" and "what reasons would there be?" and they either come back with "no reason" or they "can see reasons".

Now, once you start to accept that there is indeed reasons why one might want to put in place a plan to demolish the towers in a controlled manner after such an event, the mind then starts reeling - "would our government sacrifice the lives of thousands of people like that????".

Yes, it would, and it does.
So the government came up with the '93 plan of renting a Ryder van, parking it in the underground car pack and blowing it up? Whenever I look at any videos of those towers coming down I see nothing other than a building that has given out under its own weight.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

M.O.A.B wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

But as for the whole, 'charges in the wall let's blow up an important building for no reason' theory goes, well, its ludicrous to the upmost extreme of extreme's imo.
This is where I think many peoples critical thinking goes wrong.

They may ask themselves "is it plausable?" and "what reasons would there be?" and they either come back with "no reason" or they "can see reasons".

Now, once you start to accept that there is indeed reasons why one might want to put in place a plan to demolish the towers in a controlled manner after such an event, the mind then starts reeling - "would our government sacrifice the lives of thousands of people like that????".

Yes, it would, and it does.
So the government came up with the '93 plan of renting a Ryder van, parking it in the underground car pack and blowing it up?
FFS!

No. Obviously I'm not saying that.

Just like I'm not saying that the us government planned an orchestrated the flying of the planes into the towers.

That doesn't mean they didn't plan orchestrate the controlled demolition of the towers though.

A CONTROLLED DEMOLITION being something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT to a terrorist attack.

M.O.A.B wrote:

Whenever I look at any videos of those towers coming down I see nothing other than a building that has given out under its own weight.
Because that's what it looks like? or because your mind is (understandably) incapable of accepting that the us government could or would do such a thing?

I truly wish my mind wouldn't accept that all governments in all countries are capable of things that make me reel in horror.

But that is the reality of the world we live in.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-07-26 08:46:59)

God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6490|tropical regions of london
so they had the explosive charges conveniently set up throughout the towers just in case there was a new attack.  ok.

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-07-26 08:46:20)

Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

God Save the Queen wrote:

so they had the explosive charges conveniently set up throughout the towers just in case there was a new attack.  ok.
Again, this isn't as implausible as it sounds.

Modern explosives are incredibly stable, given the amount of destruction they can wreak when triggered.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6490|tropical regions of london
they also require time and coordination to be properly placed.  building implosions are difficult to perfect.
HurricaИe
Banned
+877|6108|Washington DC
So essentially what you're saying is that the government had set up explosives in case there was an attack, so that they could demolish it in a controlled manner?
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6490|tropical regions of london

HurricaИe wrote:

So essentially what you're saying is that the government had set up explosives in case there was an attack, so that they could demolish it in a controlled manner?
crazy huh
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6277|North Tonawanda, NY

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Again, this isn't as implausible as it sounds.
Yes it is.
HurricaИe
Banned
+877|6108|Washington DC

God Save the Queen wrote:

HurricaИe wrote:

So essentially what you're saying is that the government had set up explosives in case there was an attack, so that they could demolish it in a controlled manner?
crazy huh
lol
I can't say I agree with Scorpion's theory, but you have to admit it's a bit more sane than the "GOVERNMENT FORCED THOSE PLANES TO CRASH INTO THE TOWERS SO THAT THEY COULD START A WAR" camp.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

HurricaИe wrote:

So essentially what you're saying is that the government had set up explosives in case there was an attack, so that they could demolish it in a controlled manner?
I'm saying that it is plausible.

God Save The Queen wrote:

they also require time and coordination to be properly placed.  building implosions are difficult to perfect.
1. There was plenty of time - before the attacks.
2. Perfection wouldn't be required.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6490|tropical regions of london
no, its essentially the same thing
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6490|tropical regions of london

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

HurricaИe wrote:

So essentially what you're saying is that the government had set up explosives in case there was an attack, so that they could demolish it in a controlled manner?
I'm saying that it is plausible.

God Save The Queen wrote:

they also require time and coordination to be properly placed.  building implosions are difficult to perfect.
1. There was plenty of time - before the attacks.
2. Perfection wouldn't be required.
it would if you think the government is going to do something like this without it being revealed through an improper collapse.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6912|Cambridge (UK)

HurricaИe wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

HurricaИe wrote:

So essentially what you're saying is that the government had set up explosives in case there was an attack, so that they could demolish it in a controlled manner?
crazy huh
lol
I can't say I agree with Scorpion's theory, but you have to admit it's a bit more sane than the "GOVERNMENT FORCED THOSE PLANES TO CRASH INTO THE TOWERS SO THAT THEY COULD START A WAR" camp.
Exactly.

I really really do hope I'm not right. I actually really really hope that it was just the planes that caused the collapse. I don't want to live in a world where those in power have such scant disregard for the lives of the individuals that they govern.

But then I look out the window (metaphorically speaking).

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