Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)

imortal wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

I may be wrong, and I hope to god I am, but that will not stop me asking questions.

Only a closed mind stops asking questions.
Anyone may ask a question.  Those with a closed mind will simply not accept the answer they are given.
But equally those that accept the answer without thought have equally closed minds.

imortal wrote:

I noticed early on, when you were doing your 'logic test,' that every single item ha the phase "all collapsed in on themselves as if brought down by controlled explosions."

In your opinion, what are the characteristics of a controlled demolition? For that matter, how would you consider a building NOT being brought down by a controlled demolition to act?  Are you comparing it to buildings knocked down by earthquakes, or what?
Yeah, as I've already said, I have a good understanding of physics and I know all about the effects of stress forces and gravity...

Actually, my main reason to say "all collapsed in on themselves as is if brought down by controlled explosions" is from the way all the support structures appear to have simultaneously given up, all at the same time, and how everything was instantly turned to dust. Even all but the very bottom of the core support pillars, in the towers, all appeared to instantly disintegrate.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6608|'Murka

And again: The fallacy in your argument is your assumption that those of us who disagree with you have accepted the answer provided without thought. As if you and those who think as you do are the ONLY ones to have applied critical thought to the situation.

I'll say it again to remove any ambiguity: You are not the only person posting in this thread who has questioned the situation or applied critical thought to it. To imply you have an open mind while those of us who disagree with you don't is not just wrong...it's unfounded arrogance.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
imortal
Member
+240|6862|Austin, TX

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Actually, my main reason to say "all collapsed in on themselves as is if brought down by controlled explosions" is from the way all the support structures appear to have simultaneously given up, all at the same time, and how everything was instantly turned to dust. Even all but the very bottom of the core support pillars, in the towers, all appeared to instantly disintegrate.
Then what you seem to be overlooking is a matter of scale.  the start of the collapse was a bit uneven, but as the rubble gained energy from the fall, the failure of the supports would happen in miliseconds- and even faster as more and more rubble became involved.  Also, this was not some 20 story building we were looking at, but a contruction 1000 feet high.  Cameras were trying to film from unusual angles and distances.  That distance tricks our minds that are not used to seeind such far away objects with such clarity.  Also, the nature of the collapsing structures may have had a 'leveling' effect, at least at the earliest stages.  When one or two supports first failed, it would take longer for all the supports on a given floor to fail than if a dozen of them suddenly overloaded with the weight of everything above them slamming all onto them at once.  The failures would happen faster and faster, even as the very rididity of the floors mitigated any effect of a leading edge to produce a point.

Imagine the rebar flooring as a type of kevlar vest.  As the rubble falls, the first- the very first bit of rubble to hit the floor hits a particular spot.  It digs a hole in, but the steel bars in the concrete transfer that energy to the suorrounding concrete, even as the supports could suddenly not support the new weight of that floor.  So (and these numbers are only for this example) the first bit of rubble to hit the floor may have been about 4 square meters, but the next floor down would have been 8 square meters, as the rebar caused a larger area to fail at the same time.  then it was 14 square meters, and so on, as each floor tried to spread the load and failed.  Unless we are talking about a piece of debris falling fast enough, with enough energy (and the correct profile) to cut through the rebar floor instead of smashing into it (taking the analogy again of a kevlar vest again, a knife as opposed to a bullet), the floors would collapse like this.  And remember that we are not looking at a20 story building with a collapse progressing from a single point and watching from a news helicopter from above as it gives way.  The amount of material above the collapse point, gives a much faster speed to the failure rate of supports.  The way the top of the building falls at first, as a unit, hides any point failure just as much as the thick smoke clouds the actual failure point.

As to the disintigration, that is the nature of concrete.  High impact reduces parts of it to dust; the higher the impact, the more of it is pulverized.  The vertical supports take less damage (comparatively) than the floors do because nearly all ot the force is directed downward.  Their floors are stripped off of them, then they are pulled down by the other debris.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6913
well... i don't know... when i used to destroy 1000ft buildings when i was a kid by flying airplanes into them... the buildings collapsed totally differently... lol...  silly fools...
Love is the answer
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)

FEOS wrote:

And again: The fallacy in your argument is your assumption that those of us who disagree with you have accepted the answer provided without thought. As if you and those who think as you do are the ONLY ones to have applied critical thought to the situation.

I'll say it again to remove any ambiguity: You are not the only person posting in this thread who has questioned the situation or applied critical thought to it. To imply you have an open mind while those of us who disagree with you don't is not just wrong...it's unfounded arrogance.
And the fallacy in some of the arguments presented against my opinions (and note, I say SOME not all) is their assumption that those that disagree with them (i.e. me) refuse to consider the answers provided. As if they and those that think as they do are the ONLY ones to have applied critical thought to the situation.

I'll say it again to remove any ambiguity: They are not the only people posting in this thread who have questioned the situation or applied critical thought to it. To imply they have the wisdom of age and experience while those of us who disagree with them don't is not just wrong...it's unfounded arrogance.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-07-24 05:37:01)

Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)

imortal wrote:

As to the disintigration, that is the nature of concrete.  High impact reduces parts of it to dust; the higher the impact, the more of it is pulverized.  The vertical supports take less damage (comparatively) than the floors do because nearly all ot the force is directed downward.  Their floors are stripped off of them, then they are pulled down by the other debris.
I'm reducing your post down to the above quoted part, not because I am 'cherry picking' or anything else, but because I totally understand and agree with all that was stated.

However, it is this aspect that I question the most - the degree of destruction wrought by the supposed 'collapse under its own weight' hypothesis.

Surely, as the concrete gets pulverized, it also loses its primary destructive power - it's bulk mass.

And what happened to the large mass of steel - who's nature is not to turn to dust - that formed the central support core?

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-07-24 05:42:45)

M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6420|Escea

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

imortal wrote:

As to the disintigration, that is the nature of concrete.  High impact reduces parts of it to dust; the higher the impact, the more of it is pulverized.  The vertical supports take less damage (comparatively) than the floors do because nearly all ot the force is directed downward.  Their floors are stripped off of them, then they are pulled down by the other debris.
I'm reducing your post down to the above quoted part, not because I am 'cherry picking' or anything else, but because I totally understand and agree with all that was stated.

However, it is this aspect that I question the most - the degree of destruction wrought by the supposed 'collapse under its own weight' hypothesis.

Surely, as the concrete gets pulverized, it also loses its primary destructive power - it's bulk mass.

And what happened to the large mass of steel - who's nature is not to turn to dust - that formed the central support core?
Caved into the basement along with a lot of the rest of it?
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)

M.O.A.B wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

imortal wrote:

As to the disintigration, that is the nature of concrete.  High impact reduces parts of it to dust; the higher the impact, the more of it is pulverized.  The vertical supports take less damage (comparatively) than the floors do because nearly all ot the force is directed downward.  Their floors are stripped off of them, then they are pulled down by the other debris.
I'm reducing your post down to the above quoted part, not because I am 'cherry picking' or anything else, but because I totally understand and agree with all that was stated.

However, it is this aspect that I question the most - the degree of destruction wrought by the supposed 'collapse under its own weight' hypothesis.

Surely, as the concrete gets pulverized, it also loses its primary destructive power - it's bulk mass.

And what happened to the large mass of steel - who's nature is not to turn to dust - that formed the central support core?
Caved into the basement along with a lot of the rest of it?
Maybe, but...

How many stories of support?
In to how many of basement?
imortal
Member
+240|6862|Austin, TX

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

imortal wrote:

As to the disintigration, that is the nature of concrete.  High impact reduces parts of it to dust; the higher the impact, the more of it is pulverized.  The vertical supports take less damage (comparatively) than the floors do because nearly all ot the force is directed downward.  Their floors are stripped off of them, then they are pulled down by the other debris.
I'm reducing your post down to the above quoted part, not because I am 'cherry picking' or anything else, but because I totally understand and agree with all that was stated.

However, it is this aspect that I question the most - the degree of destruction wrought by the supposed 'collapse under its own weight' hypothesis.

Surely, as the concrete gets pulverized, it also loses its primary destructive power - it's bulk mass.

And what happened to the large mass of steel - who's nature is not to turn to dust - that formed the central support core?
Not ALL of the concrete became dust.  Also, mass is not destroyed.  Out of the concrete that is 'dusted' and lost to the billowing effect, I will give a wild guess and say about 100 tons.  That is 100 TONS of dust material.  But to hedge even further, let us say it was 10 times that; 1000 tons/ 2,000,000 pounds of concrete dust.  But each of the WTC buildings each had more than 400,000 TONS of mass.   1000 tons is about 0.25%.  Not much loss there; those numbers are only guestimates, but you can see the scale. (The combined weight of the towers was more than 1.5 million tons. source)

As to the steel, there is just not the gigantic mass of it you assume.  Any building is mostly space.  Nearly all space.  It also comacts pretty well.  With a basement 4 stories deep, and the pile ending up 3 or 4 stories above the ground, not to mention spread over at least twice the amount of space on the ground as the area of the original buildings, it is not really all that remarkable that the rubble compacted so well.  That is often one of the things noted upon by people who witness professional implosions; we seldom think about how much of a building is empty space.

Even the Central support core was nothing more than a series of steel and concrete support beams; it was not a single solid interior column holding everything up. 

Here is a very interesting website University of Sydney Civil Engineering
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6608|'Murka

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

And the fallacy in some of the arguments presented against my opinions (and note, I say SOME not all) is their assumption that those that disagree with them (i.e. me) refuse to consider the answers provided. As if they and those that think as they do are the ONLY ones to have applied critical thought to the situation.

I'll say it again to remove any ambiguity: They are not the only people posting in this thread who have questioned the situation or applied critical thought to it. To imply they have the wisdom of age and experience while those of us who disagree with them don't is not just wrong...it's unfounded arrogance.
I call copyright infringement!

I don't recall anyone (at least not me or imortal) saying you haven't applied critical thought. I do, however, recall you saying that to others. You are the only one implying that others have a closed mind. You are the only one who implied that only those who accept the conspiracy theories in direct opposition to the vast majority of available evidence have an open mind.

Do you have the wisdom of age and experience? Do you have years of experience with the topic under discussion?

I learned something a long time ago: If you're right and everyone else is wrong...chances are better than even that you're wrong.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

And the fallacy in some of the arguments presented against my opinions (and note, I say SOME not all) is their assumption that those that disagree with them (i.e. me) refuse to consider the answers provided. As if they and those that think as they do are the ONLY ones to have applied critical thought to the situation.

I'll say it again to remove any ambiguity: They are not the only people posting in this thread who have questioned the situation or applied critical thought to it. To imply they have the wisdom of age and experience while those of us who disagree with them don't is not just wrong...it's unfounded arrogance.
I call copyright infringement!

I don't recall anyone (at least not me or imortal) saying you haven't applied critical thought. I do, however, recall you saying that to others. You are the only one implying that others have a closed mind. You are the only one who implied that only those who accept the conspiracy theories in direct opposition to the vast majority of available evidence have an open mind.

Do you have the wisdom of age and experience? Do you have years of experience with the topic under discussion?

I learned something a long time ago: If you're right and everyone else is wrong...chances are better than even that you're wrong.
No. You are reading that into my statements.


I did not state that anyone here was closed-minded.
I did state that accepting without questioning is closed-minded.

That is, all I stated was that by not asking questions one is being closed-minded.


And then I stated that I would rather be open-minded than closed-minded.


These statements are not an accusation, merely statements of fact.
Is there any part of it that, as statements of fact, you disagree with?

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-07-24 19:31:50)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6608|'Murka

There was a clear implication, based on the context, that those who disagreed with you didn't ask any questions about the official report, but you did. And because they "didn't ask any questions" (because they believed the official story...another poor leap in logic), they were close-minded.

Now you're saying that those who looked at and accepted the science behind the official story aren't close-minded. Fine. We'll hold you to that.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6882|United States of America

Poseidon wrote:

I still find it funny how people in high school and college are trying to debate this with people who are experts on the topic at hand.
Actually, as a college student, I now have the same, if not more, credentials as the people who made the Loose Change film.

And when the topic actually gets back on science and facts rather than arguing about arguments (perhaps, meta-argument), I look forward to knocking down the conspiracy theories.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6608|'Murka

DesertFox- wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

I still find it funny how people in high school and college are trying to debate this with people who are experts on the topic at hand.
Actually, as a college student, I now have the same, if not more, credentials as the people who made the Loose Change film.

And when the topic actually gets back on science and facts rather than arguing about arguments (perhaps, meta-argument), I look forward to knocking down the conspiracy theories.
Just don't be all close-minded with your accurate science and whatnot.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)

FEOS wrote:

There was a clear implication, based on the context, that those who disagreed with you didn't ask any questions about the official report, but you did. And because they "didn't ask any questions" (because they believed the official story...another poor leap in logic), they were close-minded.

Now you're saying that those who looked at and accepted the science behind the official story aren't close-minded. Fine. We'll hold you to that.
Good.

And I hope you, and everyone else, equally, will refrain from accusing me of being closed-minded, or idiotic, or anything else, for asking the questions that I ask.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6608|'Murka

Well then don't ask idiotic questions.

i keed, i keed...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)

imortal wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

imortal wrote:

As to the disintigration, that is the nature of concrete.  High impact reduces parts of it to dust; the higher the impact, the more of it is pulverized.  The vertical supports take less damage (comparatively) than the floors do because nearly all ot the force is directed downward.  Their floors are stripped off of them, then they are pulled down by the other debris.
I'm reducing your post down to the above quoted part, not because I am 'cherry picking' or anything else, but because I totally understand and agree with all that was stated.

However, it is this aspect that I question the most - the degree of destruction wrought by the supposed 'collapse under its own weight' hypothesis.

Surely, as the concrete gets pulverized, it also loses its primary destructive power - it's bulk mass.

And what happened to the large mass of steel - who's nature is not to turn to dust - that formed the central support core?
Not ALL of the concrete became dust.  Also, mass is not destroyed.  Out of the concrete that is 'dusted' and lost to the billowing effect, I will give a wild guess and say about 100 tons.  That is 100 TONS of dust material.  But to hedge even further, let us say it was 10 times that; 1000 tons/ 2,000,000 pounds of concrete dust.  But each of the WTC buildings each had more than 400,000 TONS of mass.   1000 tons is about 0.25%.  Not much loss there; those numbers are only guestimates, but you can see the scale. (The combined weight of the towers was more than 1.5 million tons. source)

As to the steel, there is just not the gigantic mass of it you assume.  Any building is mostly space.  Nearly all space.  It also comacts pretty well.  With a basement 4 stories deep, and the pile ending up 3 or 4 stories above the ground, not to mention spread over at least twice the amount of space on the ground as the area of the original buildings, it is not really all that remarkable that the rubble compacted so well.  That is often one of the things noted upon by people who witness professional implosions; we seldom think about how much of a building is empty space.

Even the Central support core was nothing more than a series of steel and concrete support beams; it was not a single solid interior column holding everything up. 

Here is a very interesting website University of Sydney Civil Engineering
Whilst much of what you say is true, firstly I question your guestimates of what proportion of the towers were pulverized, relatively speaking, into dust and secondly, we have to consider the conservation of energy.

1. As the concrete crumbled it must absorb energy, thereby removing energy from the impact that causes it to crumble.
2. As much damage and crumbling will be inflicted upon the falling mass of concrete as the mass of concrete it impacts on.
3. As the large solid mass breaks up, it does so into separate individual 'particles' (of varying mass) that can not then be treated as a single body of mass, but must be treated as separate mass bodies.
4. As the dust cloud expelled from the towers, less and less mass will have fallen on the remaining intact structure.

These facts combine to rapidly reduce the impact energy of the falling debris. Making it less and less likely that the structure would have crumbled as the mass got closer and closer to the ground.

I dunno, maybe if you run the figures it all calculates out to give enough sustained impact energy to totally demolish the towers from top down, but it seems unlikely to me.

If they'd have collapsed from bottom up, then that would be a different matter - as the intact, single body of mass would then have easily maintained enough impact energy to disintegrate on impact with the ground - this is why most demolitions are carried out bottom-to-top - that way nature lends a hand.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6798|132 and Bush

imortal wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

I may be wrong, and I hope to god I am, but that will not stop me asking questions.

Only a closed mind stops asking questions.
Anyone may ask a question.  Those with a closed mind will simply not accept the answer they are given.

I noticed early on, when you were doing your 'logic test,' that every single item ha the phase "all collapsed in on themselves as if brought down by controlled explosions."

In your opinion, what are the characteristics of a controlled demolition? For that matter, how would you consider a building NOT being brought down by a controlled demolition to act?  Are you comparing it to buildings knocked down by earthquakes, or what?

All buildings, by their very nature, are more are more space inside than material.  That is critical if we are to have a useable building.  Second, there is always a force acting upon a building; gravity.  Gravity wants to pull everything to the ground, and all that keeps the building up are it supports.  If a support fails, the weight it was meant to support has to be spread to another support, or else that area will collapse; if the nearby supports can not cover for the loss of the first support, then they too will collapse.  Main supports are very specialized in the stresses they can handle; they are really good at holding weight up, but not very good at all at being tilted or taking lateral stress.  If part of the weight for a support is gone, and the load it is supporting is off balance, it puts an unusual strain on the support that it is not designed to handle, and that support may fail, which is why tall buildings will not tip over like a person falling back.

If a lateral force is imparted on a building, like the top part of building 1, then you have several forces going on at once.  say half of the supports give way, due to fire and impact damage.  The mass those supports held up start to fall.  More and more supports fail as they are suddenly asked to support more and more loads they were not designed for.  At the same time, the supports on the far end are still holding up their side of teh building.  What you end up having is the top of the building starting to tip, or fold.  The hinge, or pivot point, are those supports that are still intact.  Those supports are not designed to put up with the stresses  being imparted on them now, so they fail.  Now the upper part of the building falls.  Without a pivot force or hinge, the upper part of the building loses its imputus for lateral movement; it still has the sideways motion that was imparted early in the fall, but no more is added and now gravity is inserting its own ideas.  However, the debris did maintain enough lateral energy to make it as far as WTC 7 by the time it hit the ground. 

The majority of the upper portion simply fell down.  Below the break, we do not know if the fire or blast reached them, but as the upper floors crashed down, the load redistributed in ways impossible to for engineers to predict or plan the supports to handle, so they start to fail.  The more than fail, the faster the rest fail.  But there is no other sideways force that is acting on the building now, just gravity.  And gravity only acts in one way; down.

A controlled demolition works with just gravity.  But controlled demolitions (also called 'imploding,' since the resulting debris from the building occupies less volume than the building originally did- no people spaces left) cheat by purposely and with foresight using explosives to cut supports and cross beams, and degrading the ability of the main supports to handle the weights they are meant to.  They then let gravity do all the work for them.

There is more I could write, but the more I type, the less anyone is likely to actually read it, and my wife is in bed impatiently waiting for me.
No controlled demolition ever looks like this..
https://i35.tinypic.com/ao0qpy.jpg

https://i38.tinypic.com/i4l0sh.jpg

https://i33.tinypic.com/iqypns.jpg

https://i38.tinypic.com/vpuql5.jpg

https://i33.tinypic.com/k99vn7.jpg

https://i36.tinypic.com/erwols.jpg
Own footprints..my ass
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)
There's a difference between 'controlled' and 'clean' or 'contained'.

NO demolition of a building puts the entire mass of the building within its own footprint. And the bigger the building the wider the spread. In such built up areas a sizeable proportion of the 'demolition job' is in protecting the surrounding building from the falling debris.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6798|132 and Bush

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

There's a difference between 'controlled' and 'clean' or 'contained'.

NO demolition of a building puts the entire mass of the building within its own footprint. And the bigger the building the wider the spread. In such built up areas a sizeable proportion of the 'demolition job' is in protecting the surrounding building from the falling debris.
I've heard the footprint thing rattled off more than a few times around here... amongst other nonsensical remarks.

I see a lot of the "missing" steel in those pictures.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
CC-Marley
Member
+407|7026
[And these aren't plane parts at the Pentagon..
https://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/CC-Marley/13.jpg
https://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/CC-Marley/Damage9.jpg
https://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/CC-Marley/landinggear002.jpg
https://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/CC-Marley/planeparts-1.jpg
https://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/CC-Marley/web_010911-N-6157F-001.jpg

Last edited by CC-Marley (2008-07-24 23:57:53)

Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6963|Cambridge (UK)

Kmarion wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

There's a difference between 'controlled' and 'clean' or 'contained'.

NO demolition of a building puts the entire mass of the building within its own footprint. And the bigger the building the wider the spread. In such built up areas a sizeable proportion of the 'demolition job' is in protecting the surrounding building from the falling debris.
I've heard the footprint thing rattled off more than a few times around here... amongst other nonsensical remarks.

I see a lot of the "missing" steel in those pictures.
The point about the steel is it doesn't disintegrate like concrete does. So, yeah, however the towers came down, there should be a fuck-load of steel all over the place, but it should still be relatively intact - remember when the towers were built, the steel structure went up first and was pretty much free standing. But in the aftermath of the towers it's looks like someone went in and systematically chopped the steel up into nice manageable chunks - again, just as you would do in a controlled demolition.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-07-25 00:06:09)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6798|132 and Bush

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

There's a difference between 'controlled' and 'clean' or 'contained'.

NO demolition of a building puts the entire mass of the building within its own footprint. And the bigger the building the wider the spread. In such built up areas a sizeable proportion of the 'demolition job' is in protecting the surrounding building from the falling debris.
I've heard the footprint thing rattled off more than a few times around here... amongst other nonsensical remarks.

I see a lot of the "missing" steel in those pictures.
The point about the steel is it doesn't disintegrate like concrete does. So, yeah, however the towers came down, there should be a fuck-load of steel all over the place, but it should still be relatively intact - remember when the towers were built, the steel structure went up first and was pretty much free standing. But in the aftermath of the towers it's looks like someone went in and systematically chopped the steel up into nice manageable chunks - again, just as you would do in a controlled demolition.
They were assembled and built in systematic manageable chunks. It only makes since that they would disassemble the way they did as they collapsed. Although not all of the debris was in "manageable chunks" (see previous images). I'm sure that was the first thing on the conspirators minds while planting the explosives... manageable chunks. What happened to those guys anyways?

Here is a good summary.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6608|'Murka

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Whilst much of what you say is true, firstly I question your guestimates of what proportion of the towers were pulverized, relatively speaking, into dust and secondly, we have to consider the conservation of energy.

1. As the concrete crumbled it must absorb energy, thereby removing energy from the impact that causes it to crumble.
2. As much damage and crumbling will be inflicted upon the falling mass of concrete as the mass of concrete it impacts on.
3. As the large solid mass breaks up, it does so into separate individual 'particles' (of varying mass) that can not then be treated as a single body of mass, but must be treated as separate mass bodies.
4. As the dust cloud expelled from the towers, less and less mass will have fallen on the remaining intact structure.

These facts combine to rapidly reduce the impact energy of the falling debris. Making it less and less likely that the structure would have crumbled as the mass got closer and closer to the ground.

I dunno, maybe if you run the figures it all calculates out to give enough sustained impact energy to totally demolish the towers from top down, but it seems unlikely to me.

If they'd have collapsed from bottom up, then that would be a different matter - as the intact, single body of mass would then have easily maintained enough impact energy to disintegrate on impact with the ground - this is why most demolitions are carried out bottom-to-top - that way nature lends a hand.
What's your beef with the "guesstimates" of the proportion that was pulverized? Do you think it was higher or lower?

You speak of conservation of energy, but you seem to ignore conservation of mass...they go hand in hand.

The fact is that a small proportion of the overall mass of the structure was expelled as dust, meaning that the vast majority of the mass of the structures was directly involved in the collapse and not dissipated outward as dust.

When you remove the impossible, the remainder, no matter how improbable, is what happened. The controlled demolition theory has been thoroughly debunked: there is no way that it could have been set up without someone noticing and/or the secret being leaked. Thus, the only remaining explanation (Occam's Razor and the Sherlock Holmes principle applied) is that the buildings collapsed due to the damage inflicted by the aircraft and subsequent fires. The science supports it, the evidence supports it.

The same cannot be said for the controlled demolition theory, no matter how you twist it to make it fit the facts.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

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