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FatherTed wrote:

I've just come back from Turkey.

If some guy i was chatting to at the bar was to be believed, Turkey is 97% Muslim.

They drink, smoke, watch porn, run around without being covered in veils, and *GASP* didn't behead, stone or shoot anyone.

But remember kids, ALL Muslims are bad. They want your blood. Ask m3th.

Remember FT: media > reality and personal experience.

Turquoise wrote:

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

You're overlooking one important factor here.  When the Taliban ran Afghanistan, that's when it was socially acceptable to kill prostitutes.  Technically, there is a law still on the books in Afghanistan that converts out of Islam should be condemned to death as well.

Which isn't what the OP was about.

My mistake, they executed some burglars.  Drool was debating the brutality of how they dealt with burglars.

Actually, if you read the article that isn't what it was about.  Or, y'know, the comment I made later.

Regardless, he didn't provide anything about their treatment other than a single incident which, as I've said, is far from accurate.

Turquoise wrote:

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

So really, this is a discussion of what's socially acceptable.  It's not socially acceptable to beat your wife in America.  Domestic abuse may still happen here, but it's prosecutable.

Actually, it's often an open secret.

That's quite different from being acceptable.  That's more just a case of cowardice and not letting the authorities know about the problem.

Oh, well so long as they're just letting it continue because they can't be bothered picking up the phone, I guess it's okay.

Turquoise wrote:

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

In places like Saudi Arabia, it's ok to beat your wife for certain things.  There was even that highly publicized case of the female rape victim who might have gotten jailed for being with men other than her spouse and family.  Had it not enraged the world outside, it would have been socially acceptable in Saudi Arabia to imprison her.

And it's like that because of the government, which is propped up by the US.

While the government is propped up by us, the religious police of Saudi Arabia are an institution supported by the people there.  They have only vague connections to the Saudi regime and are somewhat autonomous.

Yeah, sure.  And I'll bet the government are doing all they can to restrict them, too.

Turquoise wrote:

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

So, on this point, you really can't deny that a lot of Middle Eastern societies find it more acceptable to treat women like shit as compared to the West's treatment of women.

Of course.  That comes with modernisation.  They haven't modernised because those places which have attempted to have been stopped by the West.

Tell that to the United Arab Emirates.

Who haven't modernised that much.  Having said that, they are more modern than other countries, and you'll note that they're better on women's rights than some others too.

Turquoise wrote:

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Of course, all of this is irrelevant:

The OP wasn't about how women in the ME have less rights.  Ultimately, it wasn't even about what's socially acceptable.  It was about two women who were murdered in violation of the law and in a manner which suggests those who did it were worried about the reaction of the average citizen.  Further, they weren't murdered because they were women, they were murdered because their murderers believed they were cooperating with an occupying force.

Selling sex to the enemy isn't a crime punishable by death here.  It's probably punishable by imprisonment though.

Right.  And you have how many foreign soldiers running around with guns killing your citizens?

usmarine2 wrote:

Hey Ted........I dont see anyone saying that all muslims are bad.  If you want to address one person fine.  But you are making it sound like everyone is saying it, then we get two pages of QFT and the same crap.

You don't read DST posts very often then.

usmarine2 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

usmarine2 wrote:

Hey Ted........I dont see anyone saying that all muslims are bad.  If you want to address one person fine.  But you are making it sound like everyone is saying it, then we get two pages of QFT and the same crap.

You don't read DST posts very often then.

ok.  and I read the same old ass responses also.  no need for it.

Ah, at least you do read your own posts.

usmarine2 wrote:

stop generalising serge.

I'm not generalizing, I'm talking about your posts, not everyone's.

usmarine2 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

usmarine2 wrote:

stop generalising serge.

I'm not generalizing, I'm talking about your posts, not everyone's.

you are generalising about all my posts.  you dirty generalizer.

Mmmm, well yes, you have a point there.  Ok, most of your posts.

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Except that generalising about all of a person's comments is a very different thing to generalising about all of a religion's adherents.

Is it really?

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Yes, it is.  A person's comments are not independent entities: they have no will of their own.  Those who adhere to a religion, by contrast, are each capable of independent thought, and will have at least subtle differences between them.  That is: a person's statements all emanate from the same thought process, but each adherent to a religion has their own thought process.

and a partridge in a pear tree.....

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

That's quite different from being acceptable.  That's more just a case of cowardice and not letting the authorities know about the problem.

Oh, well so long as they're just letting it continue because they can't be bothered picking up the phone, I guess it's okay.

Where did I say it's ok in America?  It's obviously not.  Domestic abuse, especially against women, is very much a problem in every country.  I think we both know this.  What's most important, however, is that the law doesn't condone it here.  It does condone it in certain Islamic countries.

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

In places like Saudi Arabia, it's ok to beat your wife for certain things.  There was even that highly publicized case of the female rape victim who might have gotten jailed for being with men other than her spouse and family.  Had it not enraged the world outside, it would have been socially acceptable in Saudi Arabia to imprison her.

And it's like that because of the government, which is propped up by the US.

The majority of the Saudi populace was ok with the sentencing.  This can reasonably be assumed when you look at how past cases have been dealt with and at how Wahhabists wield a lot of influence among the general populace.  So, it's not just a case of us propping up extremists.  The population itself is significantly ultraconservative.  The average Iranian is considerably more moderate than the average Saudi Arabian.  Iran is more a case of a country where the government is less representative of the people, despite being a so-called democracy.

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

While the government is propped up by us, the religious police of Saudi Arabia are an institution supported by the people there.  They have only vague connections to the Saudi regime and are somewhat autonomous.

Yeah, sure.  And I'll bet the government are doing all they can to restrict them, too.

Of course not, because if they did, they'd get ousted by the fanatical public.  Siding with the religious police provides the Saudi regime legitimacy among the populace.  I'm sure the Saudis are personally not very interested in religious affairs, but they have to appear to be that way in order to appease the public.  The Saudi regime is really just a bunch of glorified businessmen.

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Tell that to the United Arab Emirates.

Who haven't modernised that much.  Having said that, they are more modern than other countries, and you'll note that they're better on women's rights than some others too.

That doesn't sound like much of a rebuttal.  So, we can agree that they are more modernized than their neighbors.  Jordan and Qatar are more moderate as well.

I think we can agree that the West hasn't exactly made it easy for the Middle East to democratize, but...  it's not all of our fault that they're still culturally so behind.  A lot of that is the result of outdated traditions, many of which even predate Islam.

As FatherTed pointed out, Turkey is a better example of a moderate modernized Muslim country, but again, this is because of their choice to lessen tradition and further democratic reforms.  Still, even they have some serious skeletons in their closet that they still won't admit to (like the Armenian genocide).

ZombieVampire! wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Selling sex to the enemy isn't a crime punishable by death here.  It's probably punishable by imprisonment though.

Right.  And you have how many foreign soldiers running around with guns killing your citizens?

I see what you're saying, but the ethics of the Taliban don't exactly hold a lot of weight in an ethical discussion.  Can you even reasonably defend them when compared to say....  Australia's ethics?

usmarine2 wrote:

turkey is about as west as NYC

I saw my fair share of western clothing, western cars, western tech, western based infrastructure.

Along with the best tell tale signs, Marlboro, Mcdonalds and Starbucks.



Bit toasty at this time of year though, hit 48c one day.

usmarine2 wrote:

I liked turkey.

For Thanksgiving?

sergeriver wrote:

usmarine2 wrote:

I liked turkey.

For Thanksgiving?

anytime really.  especially on a bagel sandwich.