Ok. Let's say one of your relatives makes a post on a website saying "God this government sucks, they do NOTHING right, I hope they get what's coming to them." A few days later, they're arrested for 'encouraging homegrown terrorism' or some bullshit.Stingray24 wrote:
My family are all law-abiding citizens who wouldn't hang out with or contact terrorist assholes. Hence, no whisking and no waterboarding.
There's been a few sensible responses here and a several that I was expecting to be honest...
So basically the waterboarding supporters main defence is "it will never happen to me so I don't mind"...yes?
Okay, so you fully believe your family are law abiding...now let's say they still get whisked away and waterboarded, how would you feel and what would you do? Don't ignore the issue by saying it would never happen, as Hurricane has pointed out the laws in America have been made malleable enough to allow for pretty much anyone expressing any level of discontent with their Government to be classified as an 'enemy combatant', perhaps even just based on online activity.Stingray24 wrote:
My family are all law-abiding citizens who wouldn't hang out with or contact terrorist assholes. Hence, no whisking and no waterboarding.
Well that was relevantFEOS wrote:
I'd find a kid with Down Syndrome, strap a bomb to them and send them into a cafe full of civilians who have nothing to do with my relative getting captured. That'll show 'em!
That's strange because that's what Gerry Conlon tried to do when he was wrongfully arrested following with the Guildford pub bombings and yet the security services decided to torture him until he fabricated another version of what happened and confessed to a crime he never committed. You sir are naive.Lotta_Drool wrote:
My Brother is a Vet. and not a liberal POS that hangs out with the anti-American crowd so this wouldn't happen to him. If it did happen to him he would fully cooperate with the people and there would most likely be no water boarding or very limited waterboarding before they figured out, hey, everything he tells us is the truth and it matches what his family and friends say. So, go fuck yourself.
So basically the waterboarding supporters main defence is "it will never happen to me so I don't mind"...yes?
Last edited by Braddock (2008-07-10 02:04:07)
Hmm, in this situation I would most likely think to myself, "Fuck my life. I had fun with my brother while it lasted." What can you do? Whining about it doesn't do any good. There is pretty much absolutely nothing you can do in this situation.
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Are you happy living in a society where the legal situation has been manipulated to such an extent that it allows for this?pyscofrawg wrote:
Hmm, in this situation I would most likely think to myself, "Fuck my life. I had fun with my brother while it lasted." What can you do? Whining about it doesn't do any good. There is pretty much absolutely nothing you can do in this situation.
So that's not a sensible response? But I'd be a freedom fighter!Braddock wrote:
Well that was relevantFEOS wrote:
I'd find a kid with Down Syndrome, strap a bomb to them and send them into a cafe full of civilians who have nothing to do with my relative getting captured. That'll show 'em!
OK. Seriously:
I'd be pissed. I would engage waves of lawyers, my Representative, Senators, and the media (national and international) until it became an issue that the government had to address.
If my relative got rolled up with IED-making equipment, in an area where bad guys are known to operate, with a bunch of other bad dudes...there would be some doubt in my mind as to whether they were truly innocent.
However, your premise that random people are just pulled off the street with no evidence against them is flawed (at least in the case of the US--can't speak to N. Ireland historical instances)...so "it won't happen to me" is just as reasonable of a response.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I dunno, but I can be pretty sure I would not strap a bomb to my chest and go blow up a building full of children....How 'bout you??Braddock wrote:
Your son/daughter/brother/sister/partner has been arrested by the security services on suspicion of terrorism, they have sworn blind to you that they are innocent but have been whisked away to a secret location and interrogated using waterboarding to glean information that authorities believe might relate to an imminent terror threat. Because your loved one is now being classed as an 'enemy combatant' you are not sure when or if they will be released.
How would you feel?
Not in the least, but I have no power to change that.Braddock wrote:
Are you happy living in a society where the legal situation has been manipulated to such an extent that it allows for this?pyscofrawg wrote:
Hmm, in this situation I would most likely think to myself, "Fuck my life. I had fun with my brother while it lasted." What can you do? Whining about it doesn't do any good. There is pretty much absolutely nothing you can do in this situation.
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You're the second person who has given that response in this thread, I'm surprised actually. This wasn't intended to be thread that somehow seeks to justify radicalisation, I just wanted to know what the people who support waterboarding would think if one of their loved ones were wrongfully detained and subjected to water torture.lowing wrote:
I dunno, but I can be pretty sure I would not strap a bomb to my chest and go blow up a building full of children....How 'bout you??Braddock wrote:
Your son/daughter/brother/sister/partner has been arrested by the security services on suspicion of terrorism, they have sworn blind to you that they are innocent but have been whisked away to a secret location and interrogated using waterboarding to glean information that authorities believe might relate to an imminent terror threat. Because your loved one is now being classed as an 'enemy combatant' you are not sure when or if they will be released.
How would you feel?
I personally would kick up an almighty fuss over the issue and use all my contacts in the publishing industry to draw as much attention to the case as possible. Who knows I might even end up like one of those weirdos who camps outside Government buildings with a placard!
What if you're loved one pissed off the wrong Government official or member of Haliburton and they used their influence to see that your loved one became classed as an enemy combatent?...that's not an impossibility under the current scenario as due process is not required the way it is in traditional legal cases.FEOS wrote:
So that's not a sensible response? But I'd be a freedom fighter!Braddock wrote:
Well that was relevantFEOS wrote:
I'd find a kid with Down Syndrome, strap a bomb to them and send them into a cafe full of civilians who have nothing to do with my relative getting captured. That'll show 'em!
OK. Seriously:
I'd be pissed. I would engage waves of lawyers, my Representative, Senators, and the media (national and international) until it became an issue that the government had to address.
If my relative got rolled up with IED-making equipment, in an area where bad guys are known to operate, with a bunch of other bad dudes...there would be some doubt in my mind as to whether they were truly innocent.
However, your premise that random people are just pulled off the street with no evidence against them is flawed (at least in the case of the US--can't speak to N. Ireland historical instances)...so "it won't happen to me" is just as reasonable of a response.
You got your answer, "there would most likely be no water boarding or very limited waterboarding before they figured out, hey, everything he tells us is the truth" - which is so much better than a full fletched torture session - for a land of the free at least...I just wanted to know what the people who support waterboarding would think if one of their loved ones were wrongfully detained and subjected to water torture.
True - if you believe in it - and if the people as a whole believes it long enough, every freedom will be denied by the government that would be necessary to do anything against it.but I have no power to change that.
A (German) satirist once said - concerning the new ID-Card to contain the fingerprints and other data- "In Spain a dictatorship once gathered all the fingerprints of its people - the German government feels more comfortable doing it the other way around."
Noone can say, what kind of government we/they will have in a few years or even decades. Preserving ones freedom is not only about keeping porn available on the internet "today", but being able to rally the people against an injust and illegal government "tomorrow". (Lame example, maybe, but it makes my point.)
I live in a true democracy, we don't pass such acts in Norway that allows such behavior from governments branches ...Braddock wrote:
Your son/daughter/brother/sister/partner has been arrested by the security services on suspicion of terrorism, they have sworn blind to you that they are innocent but have been whisked away to a secret location and interrogated using waterboarding to glean information that authorities believe might relate to an imminent terror threat. Because your loved one is now being classed as an 'enemy combatant' you are not sure when or if they will be released.
How would you feel?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
You mean you're not one of them already?!Braddock wrote:
I might even end up like one of those weirdos who camps outside Government buildings with a placard!
Not yet!Mek-Stizzle wrote:
You mean you're not one of them already?!Braddock wrote:
I might even end up like one of those weirdos who camps outside Government buildings with a placard!
I would hate it, of course, I also support the desth penalty but I would hate seening my son put ot death.......What kinda question is this?Braddock wrote:
You're the second person who has given that response in this thread, I'm surprised actually. This wasn't intended to be thread that somehow seeks to justify radicalisation, I just wanted to know what the people who support waterboarding would think if one of their loved ones were wrongfully detained and subjected to water torture.lowing wrote:
I dunno, but I can be pretty sure I would not strap a bomb to my chest and go blow up a building full of children....How 'bout you??Braddock wrote:
Your son/daughter/brother/sister/partner has been arrested by the security services on suspicion of terrorism, they have sworn blind to you that they are innocent but have been whisked away to a secret location and interrogated using waterboarding to glean information that authorities believe might relate to an imminent terror threat. Because your loved one is now being classed as an 'enemy combatant' you are not sure when or if they will be released.
How would you feel?
I personally would kick up an almighty fuss over the issue and use all my contacts in the publishing industry to draw as much attention to the case as possible. Who knows I might even end up like one of those weirdos who camps outside Government buildings with a placard!
raise public awareness, challenge the decision in court. Because of germany's "troubled" past regarding dictatorships though, I doubt anything of that sort could happen here today.
I would imagine you'd hate it particularly if they were put to death without due process yes?lowing wrote:
I would hate it, of course, I also support the desth penalty but I would hate seening my son put ot death.......What kinda question is this?Braddock wrote:
You're the second person who has given that response in this thread, I'm surprised actually. This wasn't intended to be thread that somehow seeks to justify radicalisation, I just wanted to know what the people who support waterboarding would think if one of their loved ones were wrongfully detained and subjected to water torture.lowing wrote:
I dunno, but I can be pretty sure I would not strap a bomb to my chest and go blow up a building full of children....How 'bout you??
I personally would kick up an almighty fuss over the issue and use all my contacts in the publishing industry to draw as much attention to the case as possible. Who knows I might even end up like one of those weirdos who camps outside Government buildings with a placard!
sure wouldBraddock wrote:
I would imagine you'd hate it particularly if they were put to death without due process yes?lowing wrote:
I would hate it, of course, I also support the desth penalty but I would hate seening my son put ot death.......What kinda question is this?Braddock wrote:
You're the second person who has given that response in this thread, I'm surprised actually. This wasn't intended to be thread that somehow seeks to justify radicalisation, I just wanted to know what the people who support waterboarding would think if one of their loved ones were wrongfully detained and subjected to water torture.
I personally would kick up an almighty fuss over the issue and use all my contacts in the publishing industry to draw as much attention to the case as possible. Who knows I might even end up like one of those weirdos who camps outside Government buildings with a placard!
Well then I hope for your sake that your innocent loved ones are never mistakenly taken from you and waterboarded by the same system you wholeheartedly support.lowing wrote:
sure wouldBraddock wrote:
I would imagine you'd hate it particularly if they were put to death without due process yes?lowing wrote:
I would hate it, of course, I also support the desth penalty but I would hate seening my son put ot death.......What kinda question is this?
Exactly, your question is hypothetical because it doesn't happen. I will take my chances because it is a nessary risk to fight the war against terrorist. The only way that waterboarding will EVER effect me or my family is by helping protect my family and friends fighting the terrorist overseas and protecting civilians from terrorist plots.Braddock wrote:
That's strange because that's what Gerry Conlon tried to do when he was wrongfully arrested following with the Guildford pub bombings and yet the security services decided to torture him until he fabricated another version of what happened and confessed to a crime he never committed. You sir are naive.Lotta_Drool wrote:
My Brother is a Vet. and not a liberal POS that hangs out with the anti-American crowd so this wouldn't happen to him. If it did happen to him he would fully cooperate with the people and there would most likely be no water boarding or very limited waterboarding before they figured out, hey, everything he tells us is the truth and it matches what his family and friends say. So, go fuck yourself.
So basically the waterboarding supporters main defence is "it will never happen to me so I don't mind"...yes?
Liberals are such pussies they couldn't even bring themselves to get info from terrorists and enemies that wish to exterminate them. You would just curl up in a ball in the fetal position wrapped up in the knowledge that you may have spared someone from an unpleasant but harmless experience in exchange for soldiers and civilians dying due to lack of information on your enemy's plans.
This is what happens when you equate good with evil because you grew up hugging bunnies and have no way to differentiate good and evil or reality.
You're so smart and enlightened, I am sure you are proud to have started such a telling thread about yourself.
Last edited by Lotta_Drool (2008-07-10 06:36:30)
Exactly the same language that was used in Northern Ireland when internment was brought in..."We only use it on the bad guys"...well you can stick that excuse right up your repressed homosexual, conservative ass (as long as you promise not to enjoy it too much). Internment subjected hundreds of innocent people to unjust detention and treatment and served as a fantastic recruiting drive for the Provisional IRA so don't go crying when the son of some guy you tortured flies another plane into another one of your skyscrapers.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Exactly, your question is hypothetical because it doesn't happen. I will take my chances because it is a nessary risk to fight the war against terrorist. The only way that waterboarding will EVER effect me or my family is by helping protect my family and friends fighting the terrorist overseas and protecting civilians from terrorist plots.
"I'm a Conservative, I'm big and strong, I eat red meat, I have a big gun" ....blah blah blah.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Liberals are such pussies they couldn't even bring themselves to get info from terrorists and enemies that wish to exterminate them. You would just curl up in a ball in the fetal position wrapped up in the knowledge that you may have spared someone from an unpleasant but harmless experience in exchange for soldiers and civilians dying due to lack of information on your enemy's plans.
It's like this Lotta my old friend, I believe innocent people deserve respect and fair treatment and in order for that to happen consistently there have to be transparent procedures in place for processing people who are suspected of being guilty of something. This means due process, respect for human rights and use of Internationally accepted methods of obtaining evidence. Once you can establish their guilt I couldn't care less what happens to them.Lotta_Drool wrote:
This is what happens when you equate good with evil because you grew up hugging bunnies and have no way to differentiate good and evil or reality. You're so smart and enlightened, I am sure you are proud to have started such a telling thread about yourself.
It's got nothing to do with bunnies, sorry to disappoint you.
Well I am glad you are not the one protecting people from terrorism because you fail. Now go hug a bunny or something.Braddock wrote:
Exactly the same language that was used in Northern Ireland when internment was brought in..."We only use it on the bad guys"...well you can stick that excuse right up your repressed homosexual, conservative ass (as long as you promise not to enjoy it too much). Internment subjected hundreds of innocent people to unjust detention and treatment and served as a fantastic recruiting drive for the Provisional IRA so don't go crying when the son of some guy you tortured flies another plane into another one of your skyscrapers.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Exactly, your question is hypothetical because it doesn't happen. I will take my chances because it is a nessary risk to fight the war against terrorist. The only way that waterboarding will EVER effect me or my family is by helping protect my family and friends fighting the terrorist overseas and protecting civilians from terrorist plots."I'm a Conservative, I'm big and strong, I eat red meat, I have a big gun" ....blah blah blah.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Liberals are such pussies they couldn't even bring themselves to get info from terrorists and enemies that wish to exterminate them. You would just curl up in a ball in the fetal position wrapped up in the knowledge that you may have spared someone from an unpleasant but harmless experience in exchange for soldiers and civilians dying due to lack of information on your enemy's plans.It's like this Lotta my old friend, I believe innocent people deserve respect and fair treatment and in order for that to happen consistently there have to be transparent procedures in place for processing people who are suspected of being guilty of something. This means due process, respect for human rights and use of Internationally accepted methods of obtaining evidence. Once you can establish their guilt I couldn't care less what happens to them.Lotta_Drool wrote:
This is what happens when you equate good with evil because you grew up hugging bunnies and have no way to differentiate good and evil or reality. You're so smart and enlightened, I am sure you are proud to have started such a telling thread about yourself.
It's got nothing to do with bunnies, sorry to disappoint you.
You wish you knew, but you can't handle the truth.God Save the Queen wrote:
tough guyKEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I would strenuously object.
We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
The notion that "Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf." is impossible to accept.
The notion that "Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf." is impossible to accept.
Kinda obvious isn't it.."wrongfully detained" would certainly suck and would be, um, wrong.Braddock wrote:
You're the second person who has given that response in this thread, I'm surprised actually. This wasn't intended to be thread that somehow seeks to justify radicalisation, I just wanted to know what the people who support waterboarding would think if one of their loved ones were wrongfully detained and subjected to water torture.
I'm curious about who you think really qualifies as a 'waterboarding supporter'.
I don't think there is such a thing, in that simple sense, as anyone who would 'support' it would qualify it with conditions and contingencies "IF they were proven terrorists, withholding knowledge or information that could save lives" etc etc
This will probably be written off as governement lies, but the CIA has supposedly banned the practice and they claim only three terror suspects have been waterboarded in their custody
could have warned me ATG, now im considered an enemy combatant because i clicked that dumb link.
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"