BF2S Forums General Motors to close 4 plants by 2010

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Do you believe anyone can be a doctor?

Nope, I don't.........Are you suggesting that the only way to contribute or become self reliant is be a doctor?

Like I said the key word is to become "marketable", in anything you choose. Unless of course you choose to be a fuckin' bum or a set your high ambitions on being a bolt installer for GM forever.

Not everyone has access to marketable skills.  Also, not all skilled labor is as safe as you seem to assume.  A lot of skilled professions are getting outsourced nowadays, and some of it is even farmed out to illegals.

Essentially, your argument would be much stronger if we had totally socialized education.  Since that's not the case, there are plenty of people stuck in unskilled jobs that are vulnerable to outsourcing and illegals.  There are also skilled workers left just as vulnerable.  Finding the money to earn the education necessary for more marketability is often out of the question.

In America, no one is "stuck" anywhere. Plenty of govt. grants loans and boot strap programs out there for those that want it. If hand holding is to be the solution, I would not look for too many people willing to improve their own lives......on their own. Govt. reliablity is EXACTLY what we do not need

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Not everyone has access to marketable skills.  Also, not all skilled labor is as safe as you seem to assume.  A lot of skilled professions are getting outsourced nowadays, and some of it is even farmed out to illegals.

Essentially, your argument would be much stronger if we had totally socialized education.  Since that's not the case, there are plenty of people stuck in unskilled jobs that are vulnerable to outsourcing and illegals.  There are also skilled workers left just as vulnerable.  Finding the money to earn the education necessary for more marketability is often out of the question.

In America, no one is "stuck" anywhere. Plenty of govt. grants loans and boot strap programs out there for those that want it. If hand holding is to be the solution, I would not look for too many people willing to improve their own lives......on their own. Govt. reliablity is EXACTLY what we do not need

Then how do you explain our crime?  Is it all just done by lazy people?

Nope it is done by unscrupulous people with low morality.......Why do they get away with it? Because our liberal govt. is more focused on prisoner rights than victims rights.

lowing wrote:

Karbin wrote:

lowing wrote:

I already posted an article saying where GM falls as far as quality and some of the causes for their problems, back on page 2 or 3.

Percentages? What do you want me to say? I never claimed GM was a model corporation. It is fucked up. But it theirs to fuck up, and if they need to close plants and send 30 year 30 dollar an hour bolt installers home, there isn't much that can be done about it.

However, my whole argument is that the union artifically enhanced these workers worth and essentially took away any reason for them to improve their education and marketablity. I do not blame the union for it, because I feel we are all responsible for our own marketability. It is exactly what happened though, IMO

So you think the people responsible for fucking up the corporation are the 30 buck an hour bolt installers and there fore too bad?

Nope, I think the combined burdon of forced payments to such groups coupled with the ineptness of these companies in other areas of business, is the problem, affecting the bottom line.

The "too bad" comes in when your ( generally speaking) artifically inflated worth by the unions, gave you a false sense of that worth, and there fore you chose not to better yourself and make yourself marketable, only to realize too late, that you are not worth a damn in the marketplace.

Blame yourself, not the company.

Oh man, you are sooooo far on the right your making the neo-cons look like dems.

1 I have a skill. I worked lok and hard to get it. And I've lost three GOOD jobs, in my field, to Mexico, China and the"right -to-work states.  That pushed my TRAINED value below 13.00 an hour. Thats why I went to an auto plant. A place where that TRAINED skill was NOT needed.
So, I learned a new one. After 20 years....your not needed.....move on down to the "bolt installers".
My skills were not "artifically inflated" they were devalued.
Your barking up the wrong tree with me on this one.

lowing wrote:

Karbin wrote:

lowing wrote:

Nope, I think the combined burdon of forced payments to such groups coupled with the ineptness of these companies in other areas of business, is the problem, affecting the bottom line.

The "too bad" comes in when your ( generally speaking) artifically inflated worth by the unions, gave you a false sense of that worth, and there fore you chose not to better yourself and make yourself marketable, only to realize too late, that you are not worth a damn in the marketplace.

Blame yourself, not the company.

Oh man, you are sooooo far on the right your making the neo-cons look like dems.

1 I have a skill. I worked lok and hard to get it. And I've lost three GOOD jobs, in my field, to Mexico, China and the"right -to-work states.  That pushed my TRAINED value below 13.00 an hour. Thats why I went to an auto plant. A place where that TRAINED skill was NOT needed.
So, I learned a new one. After 20 years....your not needed.....move on down to the "bolt installers".
My skills were not "artifically inflated" they were devalued.
Your barking up the wrong tree with me on this one.

You are a painter, you could go just about anywhere with that trade. Please do not tell me that there just was no work out their for good craftsman such as yourself. I have been around the lock far too long to buy that. Now, does it mean you might hae to move, maybe, now, you would be feeling my pain.

It just so happends lowing that the skill of a craft is no longer needed by society, when the economic is booming and carpenters and other handymens skilled are needed alot of people educate themselves seeing as there is money in construction ... the firms providing these services are in dire need of people ... what happends when that boom is over ? ... they are laid off and have to move out of the country to make use of their skills OR they could take a job as an unskilled and HOPE the recession in their line of work blows over fast ... what happends then when even their new trade is downsized ?

So you just can't go anywhere with every skill ... sometimes you have educated yourself to unemployment, but according to you they purely have themselves to blame for that ...

omg he was stupid enough to learn the wrong trade, he should have forseen it bloody idiot

lowing wrote:

There has never been a time in history where construction was NOT up and down. If you chose a volatile profession, then who else do you want to blame for the choice? If you have left yourself no "outs". Who else do you want to blame for that decision, other than the person who made the choice?

lol. Apparently nobody should become a plumber, carpenter, electrician or builder. It's just too risky. We don't really need them anyway....pppfffftttt. lololol

Vital trades that rise and fall at the whims of inept government and other external factors beyond their control. Whilst perfecting their trades, trying to raise families and trying to keep a roof over their heads they should probably also be taking classes in pharmacy and medicine I suppose.....lol

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-10 07:53:41)

lowing wrote:

Nope Cam, these are worthy professions, but if you are not prepared for the down turns in the economy, THAT YOU KNOW WILL EVENTUALLY AFFECT YOUR PROFESSION, by saving, having a back up job etc...... then you hardly need to look farther than the mirror to find the one at fault. Why should I flip the bill for anothers lack of responsibility?

A back up job like what? Burger flipper? Lawn mower? Paper round? Most people only have enough time in their life to become expert at one trade or profession at a time lowing. What are you? A doctor and an engineer and a scientist and a stock broker or something? Why you should flip the bill is because we're all in this together. Solidarity among fellow toilers. Team spirit. You will never understand that so I don't even know why I'm bothering here.

lowing? wrote:

I notice you conveniently chose not to address my second paragraph. How about you answer it?

Because I've addressed that with you umpteen times before perhaps. Worthy men can sometimes get caught with their pants down - I'd rather not see them high and dry when they are of value to society.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-10 08:34:01)

lowing wrote:

No, I am an aircraft mechanic. My back up plan is my abilty to go anywhere to earn my paycheck, and I have had to leave. There are a lot of aircraft in the world Cam. Even as upside down as the airline industry is, I still can find work, and ya know how? Because I got off of my ass and looked for it.

And I have addressed with you upteen times my willingness to help those that can not help themselves.........How about finally acknowledging that instead of trying to paint me as a heartless unmerciful monster that only thinks of myself. Or would doing so total destroy your argument against my opinions?

What is your back-up if the airline industry shrinks so much that you are squeezed out altogether, which seems to be a reasonable risk given that the price of oil is making air travel prohibitively expensive and the numbers of airlines folding is increasing all the time? In the future, air travel will be solely the preserve of the uber-rich, unless someone can perfect the nuclear jet or the hydrogen fuel cell zeppelin.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

No, I am an aircraft mechanic. My back up plan is my ability to go anywhere to earn my paycheck, and I have had to leave. There are a lot of aircraft in the world Cam. Even as upside down as the airline industry is, I still can find work, and ya know how? Because I got off of my ass and looked for it.

And I have addressed with you umpteen times my willingness to help those that can not help themselves.........How about finally acknowledging that instead of trying to paint me as a heartless unmerciful monster that only thinks of myself. Or would doing so total destroy your argument against my opinions?

What is your back-up if the airline industry shrinks so much that you are squeezed out altogether, which seems to be a reasonable risk given that the price of oil is making air travel prohibitively expensive and the numbers of airlines folding is increasing all the time? In the future, air travel will be solely the preserve of the uber-rich, unless someone can perfect the nuclear jet or the hydrogen fuel cell zeppelin.

My industry DID squeeze me out, in 2005. I am now working in another aspect of aviation after a tried and failed attempt to start my own business. I took risks that did not pay off, at the same time facing a divorce. I pretty much lost everything. Without taking a single penny from my fellow Americans I worked to rebuild my American dream and succeeded. Yer right Cam, life isn't fair, and it sure hadn't been for me either. The difference is, I, ME, MYSELF, took responsibility to make sure I recovered from it. I am not on a perch looking down on everyone else wagging my finger. I have very recently been down and out, and used the very ideology of personal responsibility to build myself back up. I speak from experience. I am not a privileged white guy.

Now is there where you tell me I was merely lucky, and my hard work didn't really pay off for me?

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

My industry DID squeeze me out, in 2005. I am now working in another aspect of aviation after a tried and failed attempt to start my own business. I took risks that did not pay off, at the same time facing a divorce. I pretty much lost everything. Without taking a single penny from my fellow Americans I worked to rebuild my American dream and succeeded. Yer right Cam, life isn't fair, and it sure hadn't been for me either. The difference is, I, ME, MYSELF, took responsibility to make sure I recovered from it. I am not on a perch looking down on everyone else wagging my finger. I have very recently been down and out, and used the very ideology of personal responsibility to build myself back up. I speak from experience. I am not a privileged white guy.

Now is there where you tell me I was merely lucky, and my hard work didn't really pay off for me?

Now just think how much easier that would have been had you taken a helping hand from your fellow honest-to-goodness hard worker, eh?

Now, why would I take someone else's money for my fuck ups? Their money is not mine for the taking Cam. I find it very presumptous and arrogant that you feel like and insist that their money is mine or that I am entitled to it. No thanks, I will solve my own problems thank you very much.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

My industry DID squeeze me out, in 2005. I am now working in another aspect of aviation after a tried and failed attempt to start my own business. I took risks that did not pay off, at the same time facing a divorce. I pretty much lost everything. Without taking a single penny from my fellow Americans I worked to rebuild my American dream and succeeded. Yer right Cam, life isn't fair, and it sure hadn't been for me either. The difference is, I, ME, MYSELF, took responsibility to make sure I recovered from it. I am not on a perch looking down on everyone else wagging my finger. I have very recently been down and out, and used the very ideology of personal responsibility to build myself back up. I speak from experience. I am not a privileged white guy.

Now is there where you tell me I was merely lucky, and my hard work didn't really pay off for me?

Now just think how much easier that would have been had you taken a helping hand from your fellow honest-to-goodness hard worker, eh?

See, what we have here is a difference in how to look at a problem.  There is a huge difference between freely offerred help and goverment assistance.  If I was  a business owner and offered lowing a position in my company, I have no doubt he would have taken it. 

What you are slyly suggesting, Poe, is that his struggle would have been easier if he would have taken the goverment money.  Indeed, many have taken that... help.  Crutch; whatever.  But in order to provide that support, the goverment takes in more money from those who are working to support it.  And then, since nothing (let alone a government) is perfectly efficient, much of that money is spent in support of the administration to provide that support.  Lowing (and I) preffered to not be a drain on our fellow countrymen, taking their money that was not freely offered, but was taken from them by the government.

Freely offerred charity is one thing.  I am stripped of money by the government (under threat of force and arrest if I decline) to be used in this way.  When it is no longer voluntary, it is no longer fair.

Here is an alternative:  How about a voluntary goverment program where you could send money in to help fund all of those entitlement programs?

imortal wrote:

See, what we have here is a difference in how to look at a problem.  There is a huge difference between freely offerred help and goverment assistance.  If I was  a business owner and offered lowing a position in my company, I have no doubt he would have taken it. 

What you are slyly suggesting, Poe, is that his struggle would have been easier if he would have taken the goverment money.  Indeed, many have taken that... help.  Crutch; whatever.  But in order to provide that support, the goverment takes in more money from those who are working to support it.  And then, since nothing (let alone a government) is perfectly efficient, much of that money is spent in support of the administration to provide that support.  Lowing (and I) preffered to not be a drain on our fellow countrymen, taking their money that was not freely offered, but was taken from them by the government.

Freely offerred charity is one thing.  I am stripped of money by the government (under threat of force and arrest if I decline) to be used in this way.  When it is no longer voluntary, it is no longer fair.

Here is an alternative:  How about a voluntary goverment program where you could send money in to help fund all of those entitlement programs?

I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree. A society with no welfare whatsoever, which is what you are alluding to, is a society of walled compounds, anarchy, crime and a subclass of possibly quite able people confined to the dustbin of obscurity for perhaps so much as one error of judgement. It's a necessary debt to society you pay so that society does not fall apart altogether. Latin America would be the epitome of this, with social discord now so great in some countries where unfettered right wing politics and the corruption that entails has now led many people to turn to the silly impracticality of communism (Chavez, Morales). It's the exact same reason monarchs in Europe had their heads cut off by the proletariat: if too large a disenfranchised underclass develops then the whole thing collapses. Having zero balance between right wing and left wing brings totalitarianism (plutocracy on one side, communist dictatorship on the other). I think you guys are both labouring under a delusion that the world works perfectly and that the free market actually works brilliantly efficiently, which is just not the case.

CameronPoe wrote:

imortal wrote:

See, what we have here is a difference in how to look at a problem.  There is a huge difference between freely offerred help and goverment assistance.  If I was  a business owner and offered lowing a position in my company, I have no doubt he would have taken it. 

What you are slyly suggesting, Poe, is that his struggle would have been easier if he would have taken the goverment money.  Indeed, many have taken that... help.  Crutch; whatever.  But in order to provide that support, the goverment takes in more money from those who are working to support it.  And then, since nothing (let alone a government) is perfectly efficient, much of that money is spent in support of the administration to provide that support.  Lowing (and I) preffered to not be a drain on our fellow countrymen, taking their money that was not freely offered, but was taken from them by the government.

Freely offerred charity is one thing.  I am stripped of money by the government (under threat of force and arrest if I decline) to be used in this way.  When it is no longer voluntary, it is no longer fair.

Here is an alternative:  How about a voluntary goverment program where you could send money in to help fund all of those entitlement programs?

I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree. A society with no welfare whatsoever, which is what you are alluding to, is a society of walled compounds, anarchy, crime and a subclass of possibly quite able people confined to the dustbin of obscurity for perhaps so much as one error of judgement. It's a necessary debt to society you pay so that society does not fall apart altogether. Latin America would be the epitome of this, with social discord now so great in some countries where unfettered right wing politics and the corruption that entails has now led many people to turn to the silly impracticality of communism (Chavez, Morales). It's the exact same reason monarchs in Europe had their heads cut off by the proletariat: if too large a disenfranchised underclass develops then the whole thing collapses. Having zero balance between right wing and left wing brings totalitarianism (plutocracy on one side, communist dictatorship on the other). I think you guys are both labouring under a delusion that the world works perfectly and that the free market actually works brilliantly efficiently, which is just not the case.

Your vision is one that you believe the world will end down without the rightiousness of your political beliefs.

I am all in favor of helping those who are "down and out."  Voluntarally.  I simply do not think the government needs to be a part of it, let alone madating and enforcing it.  Let there be charities and churches.  I wish them all the success in the world.  I even suggested a voluntary government program.   And I am not a medevil monach, taking everyones' income in taxes and giving nothing in return; I am advocating lowering those taxes so they are not taken in the first place!  Latin America is a land that greed remembered and decency forgot. It is harder to find an honest person there than a crooked one. 

Make the government smaller, and less money will be taken by it; that leaves more money in the hands of those who need it.  I managed to get a new job after being let go rather handily.  It simply takes some work and foresight (by getting an education however I could.  If you are able to work, but too lazy to get out and look for it, then yes you should starve and die.  If you are too proud and feel that flipping burgers at the local McDonalds is beneath you, then yes you should starve and die.  There are still people in this country that, after having been evacuated from New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, are still living on a FEMA check. They have not gone to look for a new job.  Why?  One woman interviewed (while sitting beside a hotel pool) said that it was "too hot" to go look for a job.  Those are people that I, quite frankly, despise.

No system created by man is perfect.  Any government system that involves people will have greed.  It will have people who desire power.  And it will have those who will use the use for their own ends.  I accept this.  But there are also people who will take and take and give nothing back; they will not even work if it is for survival.  I call these people a blight on society.

Why do you think the world would suddenly break down into armed camps if we simply relied on other individuals for help instead of the government?  Are individual people that much less capable?  Can you not depend on your family in a crisis?  Would you not help your family if they needed it?  Would you help your neighbor?

imortal wrote:

Your vision is one that you believe the world will end down without the rightiousness of your political beliefs.

I am all in favor of helping those who are "down and out."  Voluntarally.  I simply do not think the government needs to be a part of it, let alone madating and enforcing it.  Let there be charities and churches.  I wish them all the success in the world.  I even suggested a voluntary government program.   And I am not a medevil monach, taking everyones' income in taxes and giving nothing in return; I am advocating lowering those taxes so they are not taken in the first place!  Latin America is a land that greed remembered and decency forgot. It is harder to find an honest person there than a crooked one. 

Make the government smaller, and less money will be taken by it; that leaves more money in the hands of those who need it.  I managed to get a new job after being let go rather handily.  It simply takes some work and foresight (by getting an education however I could.  If you are able to work, but too lazy to get out and look for it, then yes you should starve and die.  If you are too proud and feel that flipping burgers at the local McDonalds is beneath you, then yes you should starve and die.  There are still people in this country that, after having been evacuated from New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, are still living on a FEMA check. They have not gone to look for a new job.  Why?  One woman interviewed (while sitting beside a hotel pool) said that it was "too hot" to go look for a job.  Those are people that I, quite frankly, despise.

No system created by man is perfect.  Any government system that involves people will have greed.  It will have people who desire power.  And it will have those who will use the use for their own ends.  I accept this.  But there are also people who will take and take and give nothing back; they will not even work if it is for survival.  I call these people a blight on society.

Why do you think the world would suddenly break down into armed camps if we simply relied on other individuals for help instead of the government?  Are individual people that much less capable?  Can you not depend on your family in a crisis?  Would you not help your family if they needed it?  Would you help your neighbor?

The rather short answers to your main questions are as follows (you answered the first one yourself in fact):

- Charity relies on the goodwill of human beings. Human beings, as you conceded yourself, are inherently and instinctively greedy and self indulgent. No system reliant purely on charity could possibly cover the costs of ensuring a harmonious society.

- The people you call a blight on society you will have to pay for anyway. Unless you are advocating the euthanasia of these people then you will have to fund a no doubt rather expensive federal prison system for all those who are forced into criminality to survive. Either way, you pay.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-10 14:36:57)