Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6820|Nårvei

Bell wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Decommission all nuclear weapons except for the US & Russia
Why?  What makes us and them so special?  I can't think of another country that would sing up to any such agreement to disarm there nuclear arsenal, while the Americans and the Russians still have them.  It never work, total disarment or none atall.

Martyn
Because there needs to be some sort of balance, total disarmament will only bring more tension between the east and the west ... but not to worry, it will never happen ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6552|Texas - Bigger than France

CameronPoe wrote:

Why are Israel exempt from the rigours of international law whereas Iran aren't? Why the double standards? Is it any wonder the west is so resented across the developing world? And don't play the 'Israel are a fair, free and democratic society card' because quite frankly they aren't when you look at their human rights record, immigration policy (which essentially is undemocratic as it is designed to dilute the Israeli Arab proportion of the total vote), the ethno/theocentric nature of their state and their contraventions of the 4th Geneva Convention vis a vis expansionism.
It would be a lot better argument if the other side's house was clean and tidy. 

I personally believe Israelis are a-holes and those fighting Israel are a-holes.  But it comes down to the unrelenting nature of those who will not move on and accept Israel.  Fundamentally, if you deny Israel's right to exist as a country, condemn it as wrong, then there's an impasse.  Twenty six nations do not recognize Israel as a nation.  I believe Israel was never left alone after it became independent.

And fundamentally if you disagree with how it gained its independence, then I can see how this would be a one-sided issue.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6565

Pug wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Why are Israel exempt from the rigours of international law whereas Iran aren't? Why the double standards? Is it any wonder the west is so resented across the developing world? And don't play the 'Israel are a fair, free and democratic society card' because quite frankly they aren't when you look at their human rights record, immigration policy (which essentially is undemocratic as it is designed to dilute the Israeli Arab proportion of the total vote), the ethno/theocentric nature of their state and their contraventions of the 4th Geneva Convention vis a vis expansionism.
Ok, so let's say Israel gives up its nukes.

What exactly does that accomplish?
I'd be more inclined towards the MAD situation between Israel and Iran. My OP was an 'in principle' question rather than a desire on my part.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6552|Texas - Bigger than France

CameronPoe wrote:

I'd be more inclined towards the MAD situation between Israel and Iran. My OP was an 'in principle' question rather than a desire on my part.
I don't like nukes either, but unfortunately you don't need nukes to do MAD
imortal
Member
+240|6674|Austin, TX

CameronPoe wrote:

Your post simply suggests a preference for Israel over Iran rather than tackling the fact that the core issue here is that Iran is as deserving of the right to self determine and the right to parity of esteem on the international stage as nations such as China, Saudi Arabia and other 'less savoury' states. You seem to pointblank refuse to realise that the nuclear weapons would be a deterrent. No rational human being would contemplate a nuclear strike by Iran that would in itself bring the total and utter annihilation of Iran. You seem to labour under the delusion that Iran is devoid of rational thought and instincts of self-preservation.
You assume that it IS a delusion.  Their leader has stated publicly that if the entire world is destroyed, that he would consider that a "win," since his people would go to paradise.  Pardon me if I take him at his word.

Yes, I prefer Isreal; they have never threatened to attack my country, or referred to it as "The Great Satan."  I tend to prefer friendly people.  Call me crazy.

Yes, they have the right to determine their own future.  Just as every nation does.  And the US (and Isreal) have the right to use the power at their disposal to bend the circumstances in other nations to best suit their own nation.  Just as every nation does.  That is what makes things so interesting. (and if the United States did not need Saudi Arabia as 'a friend' in the Middle East, I have no problem with that goverment... disappearing.  Needs must when the devil drives.)

Do not assume your adversary (or your allies) are thinking or acting rationally.  Rational people are predictable, and yet we are suprised all the time.

Lastly, a quote from a website I favor:  "Do not make the mistake of assuming that you and I share any of the same value systems."

Last edited by imortal (2008-06-05 10:58:39)

paul386
Member
+22|6255
Hasn't history already taught us that mutually assured destruction works. I think anyone and everyone who wants nukes should get them. The Cold War was the most peaceful time for Europe ever.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6295

Kmarion wrote:

oug wrote:

The proposition is fair. Which means that Israel - being the side with the advantage - would never go for it.
Nor would the Iranian. Welcome to the real world.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 27_pf.html
Iran already tried to instigate talks over pretty well all outstanding issues they have with Israel and the US including the nuclear program. The US not only rejected the offer, but reprimanded the Swiss diplomat for daring to present the US with the offer. This is the real world.
ShowMeTheMonkey
Member
+125|6712
Just to point out that whole "Historically Muslims pushed Jewish people out of the Holy Land" crap.

The crusades? When Antioch and Jerusalem were first taken by frankish and western europoean troops they massacred the population of Jews and Muslims.

The third crusade: On route to the holy lands, the fleet stops off in Portual, Jewish massacre again!

But when Saladhin captured jerusalem. he let all live apart fromt he christian "warrior Monks" ie, the templars and hospitilars.

So historically who hates Jewish people more?
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6552|Texas - Bigger than France
Hitler?
ShowMeTheMonkey
Member
+125|6712
ha. I got owned. But on case, again a christian/atheist.

Last edited by ShowMeTheMonkey (2008-06-05 12:53:46)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6415|North Carolina
How about this?  Israel gets to keep their nukes, and we stop bothering Iran about theirs.

If we keep pressuring Iran, mostly bad things will result from it (like a nuclear program that goes from out in the open to underground).  I'd rather we remain able to see what Iran is doing, and the only way that will happen is if we seemingly leave them alone about it.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6421|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

How about this?  Israel gets to keep their nukes, and we stop bothering Iran about theirs.

If we keep pressuring Iran, mostly bad things will result from it (like a nuclear program that goes from out in the open to underground).  I'd rather we remain able to see what Iran is doing, and the only way that will happen is if we seemingly leave them alone about it.
Turq, the problem is that Iran's nuclear program isn't really out in the open. All they need to do is cooperate with the IAEA and work with the international community regarding the multiple offers made to help them develop peaceful nuclear power.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6415|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

How about this?  Israel gets to keep their nukes, and we stop bothering Iran about theirs.

If we keep pressuring Iran, mostly bad things will result from it (like a nuclear program that goes from out in the open to underground).  I'd rather we remain able to see what Iran is doing, and the only way that will happen is if we seemingly leave them alone about it.
Turq, the problem is that Iran's nuclear program isn't really out in the open. All they need to do is cooperate with the IAEA and work with the international community regarding the multiple offers made to help them develop peaceful nuclear power.
Right, but they want nukes in order to protect themselves from us and Israel.  It's not very realistic to expect Iran not to pursue nukes if we have them.

There's really no way we could prevent Iran from developing nukes, short of invading them.  Of course, we saw how well invading Iraq went.
imortal
Member
+240|6674|Austin, TX


Oh, and this is the song from way back in 1980, made during the Hostage crisis.  By a show of (virtual) hands, who here besides me remembers when this was actually on the radio back then?
san4
The Mas
+311|6698|NYC, a place to live
How about this:

1. Iran demobilizes Hamas and Hezbollah.

2. No one is attacking Israel for the first time in 60 years.

3. Israel and the Palestinians make peace along the lines they've both publicly supported.


Israel is ready. The only hard part is the first two steps.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6415|North Carolina

san4 wrote:

How about this:

1. Iran demobilizes Hamas and Hezbollah.

2. No one is attacking Israel for the first time in 60 years.

3. Israel and the Palestinians make peace along the lines they've both publicly supported.


Israel is ready. The only hard part is the first two steps.
Israel is ready alright...  ready to backstab the Palestinians.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6421|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

How about this?  Israel gets to keep their nukes, and we stop bothering Iran about theirs.

If we keep pressuring Iran, mostly bad things will result from it (like a nuclear program that goes from out in the open to underground).  I'd rather we remain able to see what Iran is doing, and the only way that will happen is if we seemingly leave them alone about it.
Turq, the problem is that Iran's nuclear program isn't really out in the open. All they need to do is cooperate with the IAEA and work with the international community regarding the multiple offers made to help them develop peaceful nuclear power.
Right, but they want nukes in order to protect themselves from us and Israel.  It's not very realistic to expect Iran not to pursue nukes if we have them.

There's really no way we could prevent Iran from developing nukes, short of invading them.  Of course, we saw how well invading Iraq went.
But using your logic, it's not very realistic to expect anyone not to pursue nukes if anyone else has them.

We don't have to invade to stop their nuke program...or at least set it back 20 years or so.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6415|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Turq, the problem is that Iran's nuclear program isn't really out in the open. All they need to do is cooperate with the IAEA and work with the international community regarding the multiple offers made to help them develop peaceful nuclear power.
Right, but they want nukes in order to protect themselves from us and Israel.  It's not very realistic to expect Iran not to pursue nukes if we have them.

There's really no way we could prevent Iran from developing nukes, short of invading them.  Of course, we saw how well invading Iraq went.
But using your logic, it's not very realistic to expect anyone not to pursue nukes if anyone else has them.

We don't have to invade to stop their nuke program...or at least set it back 20 years or so.
...but why do it?  Israel has nukes, so why shouldn't Iran?  It seems a bit one-sided to ally with one and continually pressure the other.
imortal
Member
+240|6674|Austin, TX

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Right, but they want nukes in order to protect themselves from us and Israel.  It's not very realistic to expect Iran not to pursue nukes if we have them.

There's really no way we could prevent Iran from developing nukes, short of invading them.  Of course, we saw how well invading Iraq went.
But using your logic, it's not very realistic to expect anyone not to pursue nukes if anyone else has them.

We don't have to invade to stop their nuke program...or at least set it back 20 years or so.
...but why do it?  Israel has nukes, so why shouldn't Iran?  It seems a bit one-sided to ally with one and continually pressure the other.
Exactly.  Iran has the right to pursue nukes, but Isreal also has the right to do everything they can to prevent Iran from getting nukes, in defense of their own nation.  Nobody said international negotiations and politics were easy.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6415|North Carolina

imortal wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:


But using your logic, it's not very realistic to expect anyone not to pursue nukes if anyone else has them.

We don't have to invade to stop their nuke program...or at least set it back 20 years or so.
...but why do it?  Israel has nukes, so why shouldn't Iran?  It seems a bit one-sided to ally with one and continually pressure the other.
Exactly.  Iran has the right to pursue nukes, but Isreal also has the right to do everything they can to prevent Iran from getting nukes, in defense of their own nation.  Nobody said international negotiations and politics were easy.
Israel doesn't have the right to bomb Iran.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6397
Only way to get countries to lose their nukes to to make them obsolete. No amount of "deals" or "trades" or "agreements" is gonna get rid of them.
smtt686
this is the best we can do?
+95|6641|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

How about this: Iran suspends its nuclear program in exchange for Israel decommissioning their entire nuclear arsenal. Sound fair?
How about Iran suspending the nuclear program based on the fact they do not actually need nukes to supply power.  I mean really, they are sitting on one  of the largest reserves of oil in the world.  They need another source of power as much as the U.S needs another 15,000 nukes in its inventory. 

Iran's nuclear power program is about one thing.  Getting a nuke to drop on Israel or sneak to another country.  Plain and simple.  If anyone does not believe that you are extremely naive.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6421|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

imortal wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


...but why do it?  Israel has nukes, so why shouldn't Iran?  It seems a bit one-sided to ally with one and continually pressure the other.
Exactly.  Iran has the right to pursue nukes, but Isreal also has the right to do everything they can to prevent Iran from getting nukes, in defense of their own nation.  Nobody said international negotiations and politics were easy.
Israel doesn't have the right to bomb Iran.
Sure they do. And they have the right to deal with the consequences.

Every sovereign nation has the "right" to do whatever the hell they want, both domestically and internationally. With that, though, comes the responsibility for your actions.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ZombieVampire!
The Gecko
+69|5837

lowing wrote:

Or how about this, the entire Islamic and Arab world that surrounds Israel, stops threatening to destroy it in every speech made, and Israel would loose the need to constantly have their guns cocked.
Are they gonna give the Palestinians their homes back?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6415|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

imortal wrote:


Exactly.  Iran has the right to pursue nukes, but Isreal also has the right to do everything they can to prevent Iran from getting nukes, in defense of their own nation.  Nobody said international negotiations and politics were easy.
Israel doesn't have the right to bomb Iran.
Sure they do. And they have the right to deal with the consequences.

Every sovereign nation has the "right" to do whatever the hell they want, both domestically and internationally. With that, though, comes the responsibility for your actions.
No they don't.  You don't have the right to just bomb whoever.  No one has that right.  You're mistaking ability for right.

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