Society is owed government policy that keeps the overall standard of living high. I'm not talking about unions here. I wonder how many people who work in those factories will have their homes repossessed in the middle of this property slump to be saddled with negative equity? Fair reward for years of dedicated hard work?lowing wrote:
No there needs to be a balance between what you describe, and the increased notion that workers have that, they are "owed" a quality of life by the corporations, instead of actually EARNING one. Now, tell me that unions do not hold this belief.
After around 30 years of being second bannana to Toyota and Honda and BMW etc....quality seems to be of very little interest over profits for the American car companies, so fuck them all. Between greedy corporations and greedy unions, fuck them all. Let them eat each other alive.DrunkFace wrote:
Because it wont solve any problems, you'll turn a short term profit (and any accountant worth his weight could get the same 'results' from legally butchering some numbers). But in the end you are still going to lose market share for inferior products and the companies going to be back where they started or worse. Probably worse because they will have lost some capital, and their reputation will be ruined further.lowing wrote:
Yeahhhhhhhh, except the American car manufacturers are paying monkeys top dollar and getting shit. This is my observation. If you are going to have monkeys produce shit, why not pay them peanuts?Burwhale the Avenger wrote:
Whoa, I never agreed that American companies are paying excessive wages to workers. All I said was that they were making inferior product. I didnt even say people should be paid high wages to do it. Just that they should be given a fair wage. I also pointed out that other car makers that pay workers decent wages seem and make quality cars and good profits. Paying workers $5 an hour to make cars would mean a shitty product at the end of the day ( workers wouldnt care about what they are doing), and this would mean less people would buy their cars. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Maybe if their overhead wasn't so high by rediculous union demands the average American, could afford a fuckin' new car.
You see, this is typical, you expect to saddle the corporations with the irresponsibility, and the personal failures of its workers. As an employee, my personal financial failures, are no more my companies business, than my successful investments.CameronPoe wrote:
Society is owed government policy that keeps the overall standard of living high. I'm not talking about unions here. I wonder how many people who work in those factories will have their homes repossessed in the middle of this property slump to be saddled with negative equity? Fair reward for years of dedicated hard work?lowing wrote:
No there needs to be a balance between what you describe, and the increased notion that workers have that, they are "owed" a quality of life by the corporations, instead of actually EARNING one. Now, tell me that unions do not hold this belief.
Newsflash lowing: blame unions as much as you want but don't stick your head in the sand on the fact that the American car industry has been got caught royally with its pants down on the modernisation front. While ye kept peddling SUVs blindly the rest of the world chuckled under their breath.lowing wrote:
After around 30 years of being second bannana to Toyota and Honda and BMW etc....quality seems to be of very little interest over profits for the American car companies, so fuck them all. Between greedy corporations and greedy unions, fuck them all. Let them eat each other alive.
Maybe if their overhead wasn't so high by rediculous union demands the average American, could afford a fuckin' new car.
You seriously blame this entirely on unions and on the workers themselves? lol. America is one of the least unionised and most weakly unionised countries in the modern world. How come factories aren't closing down on a daily basis here in Europe? How come the highly unionised BMW and Audi can manage? Have you any idea how well German engineers are paid and how well protected their employment is?lowing wrote:
You see, this is typical, you expect to saddle the corporations with the irresponsibility, and the personal failures of its workers. As an employee, my personal financial failures, are no more my companies business, than my successful investments.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-05 11:28:08)
one word.........................corruptionCameronPoe wrote:
You seriously blame this entirely on unions and on the workers themselves? lol. America is one of the least unionised and most weakly unionised countries in the modern world. How come factories aren't closing down on a daily basis here in Europe? How come the highly unionised BMW and Audi can manage? Have you any idea how well German engineers are paid and how well protected their employment is?lowing wrote:
You see, this is typical, you expect to saddle the corporations with the irresponsibility, and the personal failures of its workers. As an employee, my personal financial failures, are no more my companies business, than my successful investments.
I do not blame unions alone. American corporations are just as fucked up and greedy as the unions that they are forced to put up with.CameronPoe wrote:
Newsflash lowing: blame unions as much as you want but don't stick your head in the sand on the fact that the American car industry has been got caught royally with its pants down on the modernisation front. While ye kept peddling SUVs blindly the rest of the world chuckled under their breath.lowing wrote:
After around 30 years of being second bannana to Toyota and Honda and BMW etc....quality seems to be of very little interest over profits for the American car companies, so fuck them all. Between greedy corporations and greedy unions, fuck them all. Let them eat each other alive.
Maybe if their overhead wasn't so high by rediculous union demands the average American, could afford a fuckin' new car.
All right lowing.... I'm calling you out.
I'm one of those "overpaid monkeys".
You want to know what's going on?
Lets try some FACTS!!
1
The cost of those "overpaid monkeys" is 5-7% of the WHOLESALE price on a vehicle
2
Management costs are 10-12% of the wholesale price.
3
Management has and will overrule us on quality issue's. Why? So they get their numbers to build = Bonus!!!
4
Double the price of the wholesale and you get the MSRP. Double at the least.
5
The company I work for has TWO vice-presidents. Price tag for each...........
25 mill a quarter....
Hell, the CFO made 20 mill.
DO NOT tell me that unions are to blame.
You act like WE don't care..
NEWSFLASH.......It's my livelihood.
I'm one of those "overpaid monkeys".
You want to know what's going on?
Lets try some FACTS!!
1
The cost of those "overpaid monkeys" is 5-7% of the WHOLESALE price on a vehicle
2
Management costs are 10-12% of the wholesale price.
3
Management has and will overrule us on quality issue's. Why? So they get their numbers to build = Bonus!!!
4
Double the price of the wholesale and you get the MSRP. Double at the least.
5
The company I work for has TWO vice-presidents. Price tag for each...........
25 mill a quarter....
Hell, the CFO made 20 mill.
DO NOT tell me that unions are to blame.
You act like WE don't care..
NEWSFLASH.......It's my livelihood.
Good news is though, a couple European car companies are planning to build factories in the US, Toyota, I think Porsche, and VW.
Plenty of Japanese and European automakers already have plants here. This is why the ownership of automakers matters less than where the production is. The way I see it -- it's no big deal if GM, Ford, and Chrysler bite the big one, because Toyota, Honda, BMW, and Mercedes all have plants here.SoC./Omega wrote:
Good news is though, a couple European car companies are planning to build factories in the US, Toyota, I think Porsche, and VW.
In the short run, this would involve a lot of unemployment, but in the long run, these other companies would take up the slack left behind by American automakers. Given the choice between working for GM and working for either BMW or Honda, I'll go with BMW or Honda.
Last edited by Turquoise (2008-06-05 18:19:55)
BMW..Maybe.Turquoise wrote:
Plenty of Japanese and European automakers already have plants here. This is why the ownership of automakers matters less than where the production is. The way I see it -- it's no big deal if GM, Ford, and Chrysler bite the big one, because Toyota, Honda, BMW, and Mercedes all have plants here.SoC./Omega wrote:
Good news is though, a couple European car companies are planning to build factories in the US, Toyota, I think Porsche, and VW.
In the short run, this would involve a lot of unemployment, but in the long run, these other companies would take up the slack left behind by American automakers. Given the choice between working for GM and working for either BMW or Honda, I'll go with BMW or Honda.
Honda or Toyota, you'll be lucky to make it to retirement.
Very few over 40 in their plants here.
Truth. I doubt it will be the guys at the top losing their jobs. The ones who decided to point their workers towards a dead end street.CameronPoe wrote:
Newsflash lowing: blame unions as much as you want but don't stick your head in the sand on the fact that the American car industry has been got caught royally with its pants down on the modernisation front. While ye kept peddling SUVs blindly the rest of the world chuckled under their breath.lowing wrote:
After around 30 years of being second bannana to Toyota and Honda and BMW etc....quality seems to be of very little interest over profits for the American car companies, so fuck them all. Between greedy corporations and greedy unions, fuck them all. Let them eat each other alive.
Maybe if their overhead wasn't so high by rediculous union demands the average American, could afford a fuckin' new car.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
That sucks about your dad losing his job...
But I'm glad they're closing plants. Maybe they'll realize they need to make decent cars that are able to compete with the Japanese and Europeans. And maybe they'll also realize that people aren't too happy about gas-guzzlers anymore either...
But I'm glad they're closing plants. Maybe they'll realize they need to make decent cars that are able to compete with the Japanese and Europeans. And maybe they'll also realize that people aren't too happy about gas-guzzlers anymore either...
Reward fpr being idiots and taking on more debt than they could handle, and falling for some really rediculous loan plans the bank came up with. Honestly, intrest-only loans? And of course the ARMs were going to kill people when the rate shot up.CameronPoe wrote:
Society is owed government policy that keeps the overall standard of living high. I'm not talking about unions here. I wonder how many people who work in those factories will have their homes repossessed in the middle of this property slump to be saddled with negative equity? Fair reward for years of dedicated hard work?lowing wrote:
No there needs to be a balance between what you describe, and the increased notion that workers have that, they are "owed" a quality of life by the corporations, instead of actually EARNING one. Now, tell me that unions do not hold this belief.
I am paying on my nice, 40 year fixed loan, and I fixed it a month before the intrest rate fell a full percent. Life sucks, but at least I know I can afford my mortgage payment.
Society is not "owed" anything by the goverment other than military protection from threats external to the country, and a police presence to enforce the nations laws inside its borders.
What are you talking about that foreign made cars are better then American made cars? What I really want to know is who came up with the idea that Japanese cars>American cars. Seriously, there's no proof, if anything there's more proof the other way. First off, my brother had 2 vehicles that have been involved in accidents.lowing wrote:
I guess this is what happens when you build an inferior product with over paid union labor..........No one buys it. Maybe GM and Ford will learn eventually, that people are not going to "buy American", unless it is better than foreign. These companies have over played that patriot card for too long now in place of a well built product. Now is the time for them to set all that aside and actually compete for a superior reputation over their foreign rivals, and yes......earn it.
The first was his 94 Chevrolet S10. It was parked in a corner in the parking lot and some Toyota side swiped it and was going fast enough to bump the S10 onto another car that was parked next to it (I don't recall what kind of car that one was.) The Toyota was towed for massive front end damage and the other car was also towed. The S10 actually drove back from his college back home which was roughly a 60 mile trip without any problems, not even the fender rubbing up against the tire.
The second was his 95 Chevrolet Caprice. He was driving down the highway in the second to right lane at about 65-70mph. He looks over to the right to see if it's clear to change lanes, meanwhile the truck in front of him tail-lights were out (that driver pulled over as well and admitted to that) and my brother had to swerve to the right to avoid the truck. Everybody was slowing down for a Toyota Corolla that was pulled over in the right lane. He slammed into the guard rail and avoided the truck but hit the Corolla that was pulled over. He smashed the whole Corolla's rear-end in. I mean to give you an idea of how little was left of the trunk, imagine taking a chinsaw at the bottom of the rear windshield, and just cutting the rest of the car off, he smashed the whole rear end in. That Corolla was declared "totalled" by the insurance company. My brother drove the Caprice home. He beat it with a hammer and it still looks beat up today. That Caprice still runs absolutely perfectly with the exception of vibrations at high speeds which is because of all the body damage... oh ya, I forgot to mention, the Caprice was also declared "totalled" by insurance companies. And I can guarentee you one thing, the totalled Corolla isn't driving anymore, unlike the "totalled" Caprice.
Now that's just the actual body and frame of GM cars, I guess they have the slogan "Like a Rock" for a reason. However, that's not my only arguement. he also worked in for a towing company during the weekends for about 3 years. The most common vehicles he towed was Toyotas, then Hondas, then Fords. He actually hated towing those cars too. Not because he liked them, but because the frames were so cheap he would always tear the frames while loading the cars onto the back of the truck. He said he loved towing GMs because he never had a problem with towing them.
You know what else I find ridiculous. The fact that Toyota has, or at least had, commercials with random drivers that said "My Toyota has <number> miles and it's still running great." First off, every car will run great if you maintain it properly. Second off, the most I remember hearing on those commercials was something like 270,000 miles, and I'm being generous with that number. Try going to a junk yard. Take a look at the Caprice taxis. Those cars literally have at least 400,000 miles on them. Now that's what I call durability. Also, there was a man in Wisconson earlier this year that hit 1,000,000 miles on his truck. Guess what kind of truck it was. I'll give you a hint, it's not one of your "superior" foreign trucks. Nope, it was a Chevrolet Silverado. Here's the article and even a video regarding that truck: http://wcco.com/local/million.miles.truck.2.651861.html And one last note, how about on your drive to work, you count how many pre-90s American cars you find on the road as opposed to pre-90s Japanese cars. I guarentee you, you will find more American cars. Funny how foreign cars are so much more reliable yet there's so few old ones on the road. I'm actually still trying to figure that one out.
I also love your comment criticizing the workers, "overpaid union labor." In three simple words you basically shot down the labor efficiency of GM. They only employ 194,000 workers across 80+ plants in the USA, while indirectly supporting the employment of 900,000 people. That's good enough for the second largest employer in the USA, the other being Wal-Mart. And I guarentee you, everybody on these forums would rather work for GM then for Wal-Mart, if not, there is seriously something wrong with your head and I'm not sure how you're allowed to even access the internet otherwise unless you somehow land a high ranking office position there which is very unlikely. Oh yeah, and GM also spent $5.2 billion on health care for employees and retirees in 2004 (those are the most recent numbers I can find.) That's a hell of a step up considering how Toyota treats its employees, you know, firing employees who attempt to organize into a union, etc. (source: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1033 )
As far as I'm concerned, GM has been earning their money all along. The problem is people just come in here and say "Oh hey, foreign cars are better." And ignorant people who don't research it just believe them. This post probably affected very few if anybody but those are some major points I see. And of course, when you buy American, at least you help the economy. It's bad enough that majority of things we buy, we buy from China. At least keep some money in the USA, or at least stop complaining about how weak the American economy is when you ship all your dollars overseas. All I know, is I will drive GM until there aren't any left to buy.
My 88 Olds with 214K miles on it takes me to work and back 80 miles a day on the freeway. I like it because I can actually work on it myself, too.
1. Ever heard the saying "the worse the car looks the better off you are". Cars are (or at least should be) designed to 'crumple' and dissipate the energy when in an accident, it may save your life sometime.FrankieSpankie3388 wrote:
What are you talking about that foreign made cars are better then American made cars? What I really want to know is who came up with the idea that Japanese cars>American cars. Seriously, there's no proof, if anything there's more proof the other way. First off, my brother had 2 vehicles that have been involved in accidents.....lowing wrote:
I guess this is what happens when you build an inferior product with over paid union labor..........No one buys it. Maybe GM and Ford will learn eventually, that people are not going to "buy American", unless it is better than foreign. These companies have over played that patriot card for too long now in place of a well built product. Now is the time for them to set all that aside and actually compete for a superior reputation over their foreign rivals, and yes......earn it.
But then of course, you could just buy big to be safe... like this guy.
2. I'm not going to comment on your brothers 'experience', but Toyota and Honda have one of the best reliability reputation out there. Also cars from 20 years ago are not cars from today are they?
40 years? That's a freaking long time, and can't you refinance?imortal wrote:
I am paying on my nice, 40 year fixed loan, and I fixed it a month before the intrest rate fell a full percent. Life sucks, but at least I know I can afford my mortgage payment.
Your view highlights the difference in ethos and attitude between the US and Europe (your last sentence). We recognise the fact that since time immemorial cyclical revolutions have occurred every time an underclass living a subsistence life develops (which is the ultimate upshot of unfettered capitalism, like it or not). Socialism is designed to prevent that (along with preventing symptoms of that, like elevated levels of crime). We prefer a 'nice' society to a mercenary one.imortal wrote:
Reward fpr being idiots and taking on more debt than they could handle, and falling for some really rediculous loan plans the bank came up with. Honestly, intrest-only loans? And of course the ARMs were going to kill people when the rate shot up.
I am paying on my nice, 40 year fixed loan, and I fixed it a month before the intrest rate fell a full percent. Life sucks, but at least I know I can afford my mortgage payment.
Society is not "owed" anything by the goverment other than military protection from threats external to the country, and a police presence to enforce the nations laws inside its borders.
As for the mortgage issue: people with steady salaries expect to be able to pay for a home with a mortgage, especially with industry giants like GM. No person can afford a mortgage when their salary is suddenly taken from under their feet. I don't see what you're getting at with this ARM business (what's an ARM?).
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-06 01:20:15)
Watch this... the biggest selling car in the US... "it's rubbish"... "barn door engineering"... as only Jeremy Clarkson can tell us.
American Car are CRAP!!! Only good for going in a straight line fast... soon as you have got to turn or break your stuffed.
Last edited by Fred[OZ75] (2008-06-06 04:01:55)
I agree, we have an extremely different way of even looking at a problem; it is not suprise we find different answers. I an respect that, and do not, as a rule, knock European socialism. I do take issue with people hell-bent on making my society more socialist, however. But that is a fight for another thread.CameronPoe wrote:
Your view highlights the difference in ethos and attitude between the US and Europe (your last sentence). We recognise the fact that since time immemorial cyclical revolutions have occurred every time an underclass living a subsistence life develops (which is the ultimate upshot of unfettered capitalism, like it or not). Socialism is designed to prevent that (along with preventing symptoms of that, like elevated levels of crime). We prefer a 'nice' society to a mercenary one.imortal wrote:
Reward fpr being idiots and taking on more debt than they could handle, and falling for some really rediculous loan plans the bank came up with. Honestly, intrest-only loans? And of course the ARMs were going to kill people when the rate shot up.
I am paying on my nice, 40 year fixed loan, and I fixed it a month before the intrest rate fell a full percent. Life sucks, but at least I know I can afford my mortgage payment.
Society is not "owed" anything by the goverment other than military protection from threats external to the country, and a police presence to enforce the nations laws inside its borders.
The current housing problem has several causes at its root, but what is hitting us now is the result of the banks 'sub-prime' loan practices. The banks were approving people who did not have the means to keep up their mortgage payments, or approaved them for mortgages that were far larger than their ability to support. An Intrest-only loan is a type of mortgage where, each month, you are only required to pay the intrest accumulated during that month; if you want to pay down the primium, that is an additional payment. That means, that if you made minimum payments, you would be paying this loan off for the rest of your life, with no hope of being free of it.CameronPoe wrote:
As for the mortgage issue: people with steady salaries expect to be able to pay for a home with a mortgage, especially with industry giants like GM. No person can afford a mortgage when their salary is suddenly taken from under their feet. I don't see what you're getting at with this ARM business (what's an ARM?).
An ARM is even more insidious. These came about when the intrest rates were lowest. It stands for Adjustable Rate Mortgage. You start with an absurdly low intrest rate for the first 3 years. After that, your intrest rate would change depending on the national intrest rate and current conditions. Lots of people refinanced with these because the intrest rate was currently really low; they did not think about the fact that it had only one place to go. Some of these people saw their mortgage payments double when their introductory intrest rate was replaced by the real one.
I lost my job about 4 months ago. I was informed that there was no longer toom for my services, I had two weeks severance pay, and please clean your desk on the way out. The very next day, I was out looking for a job. In fact, I managed to land a job and get working in time that I did not even have a lapse in pay.
There are 3 sorts of people. Those with their heads in the sand about looming conditions. Those who see the way the winds are shifting, but try to fight the course, wanting to keep things status quo, and those who see the changes on the horizon, but manuver themselves to survive or take advantage of the changes.
The US auto industry has been heading this way for a very long time. It has been a very comfortable paycheck until now. But you do not get sympathy for complacency. Yes, it sucks for a lot of people, but it happens.
American cars may be 'good' or 'bad', they aren't selling.
The Japanese are very skilled at giving consumers what they want at a price they want to pay.
The bottom line is Americans are buying fewer American cars and more Japanese cars.
US automakers are very slow to react to technology development, market trends and changes, and real consumer needs.
This is the main reason why they have been getting progressively deeper in the doo over the last 20 years.
A big part of the reason is the unionised workforce. Unions are good for many reasons, but when a totally unqualified or unskilled person can demand high pay, pension, medical insurance etc. and kill the company they work for then there is something wrong.
The Japanese are very skilled at giving consumers what they want at a price they want to pay.
The bottom line is Americans are buying fewer American cars and more Japanese cars.
US automakers are very slow to react to technology development, market trends and changes, and real consumer needs.
This is the main reason why they have been getting progressively deeper in the doo over the last 20 years.
A big part of the reason is the unionised workforce. Unions are good for many reasons, but when a totally unqualified or unskilled person can demand high pay, pension, medical insurance etc. and kill the company they work for then there is something wrong.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-06-06 06:22:47)
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
You can't even tell the difference between a truck and a car? Here's some Clarkson about an American car ...Fred[OZ75] wrote:
Watch this... the biggest selling car in the US... "it's rubbish"... "barn door engineering"... as only Jeremy Clarkson can tell us.
American Car are CRAP!!! Only good for going in a straight line fast... soon as you have got to turn or break your stuffed.
Even Clarkson who hates anything that comes from the stars and stripes admits the Vette is great. "Properly loud", "175mph ... in ONE gear!!!!!", "phenomenal engine", "there's so much brute force, just use the right foot to get you out of trouble", "so controllable", "astonishing car". He compared it to the Ferrari 575 and wondered why is there a 100K difference in the price between the two.
Or if you won't believe him, how about Tiff Needel with 14 appearances at Le Mans under his belt?
Ok lets continue the fact findingKarbin wrote:
All right lowing.... I'm calling you out.
I'm one of those "overpaid monkeys".
You want to know what's going on?
Lets try some FACTS!!
1
The cost of those "overpaid monkeys" is 5-7% of the WHOLESALE price on a vehicle
2
Management costs are 10-12% of the wholesale price.
3
Management has and will overrule us on quality issue's. Why? So they get their numbers to build = Bonus!!!
4
Double the price of the wholesale and you get the MSRP. Double at the least.
5
The company I work for has TWO vice-presidents. Price tag for each...........
25 mill a quarter....
Hell, the CFO made 20 mill.
DO NOT tell me that unions are to blame.
You act like WE don't care..
NEWSFLASH.......It's my livelihood.
How much do you make? What is your benifits package? What is your skill? How long did it take you to earn your credentials in that skill? were you hired off of the street with no experience necessary? And lastly, who got you your job, was it your father, uncle brother or a friend??
Now, will you sit there and tell us that American made products are made to the quality standards of European and Japanese companies of equal class?
Unions can not make decisions about the direction of the company. If the company needs to layoff workers to remain profitable a union can not stop them. Some of the worlds most successful companies have been unionized. They have lasted through extremely tough financial times including the great depression. Organized labor is simply a voice from the workers. I have real long term experience on both sides (Management/Union). There are pros and cons for both. GM being slow to react to changing economic conditions is a result of incompetent foresight. Not contract labor.Dilbert_X wrote:
American cars may be 'good' or 'bad', they aren't selling.
The Japanese are very skilled at giving consumers what they want at a price they want to pay.
The bottom line is Americans are buying fewer American cars and more Japanese cars.
US automakers are very slow to react to technology development, market trends and changes, and real consumer needs.
This is the main reason why they have been getting progressively deeper in the doo over the last 20 years.
A big part of the reason is the unionised workforce. Unions are good for many reasons, but when a totally unqualified or unskilled person can demand high pay, pension, medical insurance etc. and kill the company they work for then there is something wrong.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
What am I talking about..............I am talking about Consumer Reports...........American cars traditionally do not score as high as European and Japanese cars..... regardless of what is in your thesis.FrankieSpankie3388 wrote:
What are you talking about that foreign made cars are better then American made cars? What I really want to know is who came up with the idea that Japanese cars>American cars. Seriously, there's no proof, if anything there's more proof the other way. First off, my brother had 2 vehicles that have been involved in accidents.lowing wrote:
I guess this is what happens when you build an inferior product with over paid union labor..........No one buys it. Maybe GM and Ford will learn eventually, that people are not going to "buy American", unless it is better than foreign. These companies have over played that patriot card for too long now in place of a well built product. Now is the time for them to set all that aside and actually compete for a superior reputation over their foreign rivals, and yes......earn it.
The first was his 94 Chevrolet S10. It was parked in a corner in the parking lot and some Toyota side swiped it and was going fast enough to bump the S10 onto another car that was parked next to it (I don't recall what kind of car that one was.) The Toyota was towed for massive front end damage and the other car was also towed. The S10 actually drove back from his college back home which was roughly a 60 mile trip without any problems, not even the fender rubbing up against the tire.
The second was his 95 Chevrolet Caprice. He was driving down the highway in the second to right lane at about 65-70mph. He looks over to the right to see if it's clear to change lanes, meanwhile the truck in front of him tail-lights were out (that driver pulled over as well and admitted to that) and my brother had to swerve to the right to avoid the truck. Everybody was slowing down for a Toyota Corolla that was pulled over in the right lane. He slammed into the guard rail and avoided the truck but hit the Corolla that was pulled over. He smashed the whole Corolla's rear-end in. I mean to give you an idea of how little was left of the trunk, imagine taking a chinsaw at the bottom of the rear windshield, and just cutting the rest of the car off, he smashed the whole rear end in. That Corolla was declared "totalled" by the insurance company. My brother drove the Caprice home. He beat it with a hammer and it still looks beat up today. That Caprice still runs absolutely perfectly with the exception of vibrations at high speeds which is because of all the body damage... oh ya, I forgot to mention, the Caprice was also declared "totalled" by insurance companies. And I can guarentee you one thing, the totalled Corolla isn't driving anymore, unlike the "totalled" Caprice.
Now that's just the actual body and frame of GM cars, I guess they have the slogan "Like a Rock" for a reason. However, that's not my only arguement. he also worked in for a towing company during the weekends for about 3 years. The most common vehicles he towed was Toyotas, then Hondas, then Fords. He actually hated towing those cars too. Not because he liked them, but because the frames were so cheap he would always tear the frames while loading the cars onto the back of the truck. He said he loved towing GMs because he never had a problem with towing them.
You know what else I find ridiculous. The fact that Toyota has, or at least had, commercials with random drivers that said "My Toyota has <number> miles and it's still running great." First off, every car will run great if you maintain it properly. Second off, the most I remember hearing on those commercials was something like 270,000 miles, and I'm being generous with that number. Try going to a junk yard. Take a look at the Caprice taxis. Those cars literally have at least 400,000 miles on them. Now that's what I call durability. Also, there was a man in Wisconson earlier this year that hit 1,000,000 miles on his truck. Guess what kind of truck it was. I'll give you a hint, it's not one of your "superior" foreign trucks. Nope, it was a Chevrolet Silverado. Here's the article and even a video regarding that truck: http://wcco.com/local/million.miles.truck.2.651861.html And one last note, how about on your drive to work, you count how many pre-90s American cars you find on the road as opposed to pre-90s Japanese cars. I guarentee you, you will find more American cars. Funny how foreign cars are so much more reliable yet there's so few old ones on the road. I'm actually still trying to figure that one out.
I also love your comment criticizing the workers, "overpaid union labor." In three simple words you basically shot down the labor efficiency of GM. They only employ 194,000 workers across 80+ plants in the USA, while indirectly supporting the employment of 900,000 people. That's good enough for the second largest employer in the USA, the other being Wal-Mart. And I guarentee you, everybody on these forums would rather work for GM then for Wal-Mart, if not, there is seriously something wrong with your head and I'm not sure how you're allowed to even access the internet otherwise unless you somehow land a high ranking office position there which is very unlikely. Oh yeah, and GM also spent $5.2 billion on health care for employees and retirees in 2004 (those are the most recent numbers I can find.) That's a hell of a step up considering how Toyota treats its employees, you know, firing employees who attempt to organize into a union, etc. (source: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1033 )
As far as I'm concerned, GM has been earning their money all along. The problem is people just come in here and say "Oh hey, foreign cars are better." And ignorant people who don't research it just believe them. This post probably affected very few if anybody but those are some major points I see. And of course, when you buy American, at least you help the economy. It's bad enough that majority of things we buy, we buy from China. At least keep some money in the USA, or at least stop complaining about how weak the American economy is when you ship all your dollars overseas. All I know, is I will drive GM until there aren't any left to buy.
"There's no question that coming in fresh, Toyota had some advantages over Detroit: It was unburdened by retiree obligations, union contracts that had been bid up over decades, and brands like Oldsmobile that refused to make money (or die). And yes, it was lucky to have small cars ready to sell when the first oil shocks hit in the 1970s. "
taken from http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/ … /index.htm
Hey, don't shoot the messenger