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2008-04-17 11:34:42
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6486|Northern California
I have answer for what was there before creation of our world/universe, but i have no doctrine to back it up -- not that doctrine is needed since it's an unimportant, non-saving doctrine pertaining to us.

Time is easy.  It varies based on what seasons were implemented during creation.  We use time to measure/reckon, but we don't have to..so who then, says time 'exists?'  God measure's time, and yes, Mormons know the time reckoning used by God and it is very different than our time reckoning...and it explains "omniscience" to a degree.
2008-04-17 11:37:32
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6596|132 and Bush

PuckMercury wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

What happened before the Big Bang? What triggered the Big Bang? Humans do not have an answers for these questions. The only assumption we come to is time didn't exist.. so what created time? We must be part of something we don't understand. There is a reason it is called faith. It's a path people make in following the unknown. It still comes down to making a personal choice. Some of the worlds greatest scientist put great faith in the mindset of a creator. They have through out all of history (Newton comes to mind).
We put faith in the discoveries of the greatest scientists. 
This is true. But there is a wall that I don't see us getting around for a very long time. If you want to mock and criticized structured religion have at it.  But everyone meets at the same point (Creationist and non-Creationist alike). The condescending attitude some people have when mocking the belief in a god is silly in itself.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-04-17 11:47:13
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6596|132 and Bush

IRONCHEF wrote:

We use time to measure/reckon, but we don't have to..so who then, says time 'exists?'
As a component of time there is a need for a leap of faith. .. which the scientific method does not allow for. There is nothing easy about time within the human element.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-04-17 11:48:41
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6523|Portland, OR USA

Kmarion wrote:

PuckMercury wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

What happened before the Big Bang? What triggered the Big Bang? Humans do not have an answers for these questions. The only assumption we come to is time didn't exist.. so what created time? We must be part of something we don't understand. There is a reason it is called faith. It's a path people make in following the unknown. It still comes down to making a personal choice. Some of the worlds greatest scientist put great faith in the mindset of a creator. They have through out all of history (Newton comes to mind).
We put faith in the discoveries of the greatest scientists. 
This is true. But there is a wall that I don't see us getting around for a very long time. If you want to mock and criticized structured religion have at it.  But everyone meets at the same point (Creationist and non-Creationist alike). The condescending attitude some people have when mocking the belief in a god is silly in itself.
I was supporting your arguement for faith and saying it is the basis for everything, not mocking anything - sorry for the miscommunication.
2008-04-17 11:51:01
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6596|132 and Bush

PuckMercury wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

PuckMercury wrote:

We put faith in the discoveries of the greatest scientists. 
This is true. But there is a wall that I don't see us getting around for a very long time. If you want to mock and criticized structured religion have at it.  But everyone meets at the same point (Creationist and non-Creationist alike). The condescending attitude some people have when mocking the belief in a god is silly in itself.
I was supporting your arguement for faith and saying it is the basis for everything, not mocking anything - sorry for the miscommunication.
Sorry, the way some people reply around here you would think that they have it all figured out .
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-04-17 11:59:25
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6126|North Tonawanda, NY

IRONCHEF wrote:

For some proofs "for" God are many thousands of accounts of people who have died, and come back to life.  Such people explain the same exact, unique things, voices, feelings, etc.  Seeing loved ones, understanding things better, being without a body but seeing others with bodies, etc..all things like this are commonly described by adults...yet the stories that kids have are different, describing seeing Jesus and only certain family members or friends who are kids. 

I would say, having more than proven his existence, that there's more evidence for him than against him...and that's approaching things scientifically, not spiritually.  And the spiritual approach is moot because it would yield more compelling evidence than any science ever will.
Since when did anecdotal evidence become scientific?  Can you reproduce these phenomena?  I doubt it.  When I see that first paragraph in my quote, I see someone who has a faith in god and sees his work there, but not proof.  I do not have a problem with that, as these things are certainly amazing for whoever experiences them.  But to claim that these stories and accounts that people have as any actual concrete evidence is absurd.  Would you give the same credence to people who have been 'abducted by aliens'?

I do not reject faith, and I am by no means trying to undermine yours.  These are sensitive topics, and I don't want to piss anyone off in the event that I come off as hostile.  This is not the case.

Last edited by SenorToenails (2008-04-17 12:00:05)

2008-04-17 13:02:29
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6486|Northern California

SenorToenails wrote:

Since when did anecdotal evidence become scientific?  Can you reproduce these phenomena?  I doubt it.  When I see that first paragraph in my quote, I see someone who has a faith in god and sees his work there, but not proof.  I do not have a problem with that, as these things are certainly amazing for whoever experiences them.  But to claim that these stories and accounts that people have as any actual concrete evidence is absurd.  Would you give the same credence to people who have been 'abducted by aliens'?

I do not reject faith, and I am by no means trying to undermine yours.  These are sensitive topics, and I don't want to piss anyone off in the event that I come off as hostile.  This is not the case.
I explained in another one of the thousands of religious threads the "proof" that can be had when utilizing spiritual means rather than the petty 5 senses non-religious folks cling to..and can still doubt with.  In short, when one has received a spiritual evidence for something, a principle, a law, a vision, a revelation, a presense, etc...there's no dispute, no doubt left, no possible way to erase it..whereas if you see something, you most certainly can forget it.  For example, can you still feel 100% of the feelings you had on 9/11, today?  I could conjure maybe 15% of those feelings, and maybe force myself to cry..but it would never, EVER come back to a fulness, not after watching all the movies on 9/11 would it bring back those feelings. 

In history, people HAVE seen angels, resurrected beings, Jesus/Jehovah, prophets doing miraculous things...yet where is that corroboration today?  Did it even do anything to them that saw, no?  People actually saw the dead walking in Jerusalem after jesus was resurrected...yet it's mark in history is long gone.  The centurion who watched Jesus give up his life, witnessed the sudden storm, darkness, and quake that surrounded the crucification of Jesus.

Anyway...miracles are truly wasted on unbelievers.
2008-04-17 13:07:08
RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6475|Somewhere else

Even if that WERE possible, It would not shake people's faith.

Fundamentalist christians say that dinosaur bones are a test by god, of your faith in him.

Waiving this proof in thier faces, would merely be a "test of our faith to him, from him"

Never under estimate the power of denial.

Last edited by RoosterCantrell (2008-04-17 13:24:29)

2008-04-17 13:21:41
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6126|North Tonawanda, NY

IRONCHEF wrote:

I explained in another one of the thousands of religious threads the "proof" that can be had when utilizing spiritual means rather than the petty 5 senses non-religious folks cling to..and can still doubt with.  In short, when one has received a spiritual evidence for something, a principle, a law, a vision, a revelation, a presense, etc...there's no dispute, no doubt left, no possible way to erase it..whereas if you see something, you most certainly can forget it.  For example, can you still feel 100% of the feelings you had on 9/11, today?  I could conjure maybe 15% of those feelings, and maybe force myself to cry..but it would never, EVER come back to a fulness, not after watching all the movies on 9/11 would it bring back those feelings. 

In history, people HAVE seen angels, resurrected beings, Jesus/Jehovah, prophets doing miraculous things...yet where is that corroboration today?  Did it even do anything to them that saw, no?  People actually saw the dead walking in Jerusalem after jesus was resurrected...yet it's mark in history is long gone.  The centurion who watched Jesus give up his life, witnessed the sudden storm, darkness, and quake that surrounded the crucification of Jesus.

Anyway...miracles are truly wasted on unbelievers.
Whatever works for you.
2008-04-17 15:56:44
Hakei
Banned
+295|5991

Kmarion wrote:

What happened before the Big Bang? What triggered the Big Bang? Humans do not have an answers for these questions. The only assumption we come to is time didn't exist.. so what created time? We must be part of something we don't understand. There is a reason it is called faith. It's a path people make in following the unknown. It still comes down to making a personal choice. Some of the worlds greatest scientist put great faith in the mindset of a creator. They have through out all of history (Newton comes to mind).
We have answers for these questions, yet we do not know if they are true. How can you prove something that is almost impossible to prove in the modern day, sounds a bit like religion, eh?

And judging by your theorm, if something had to create time, something had to create what created time. Therefore God must be part of something he doesn't understand, where do you draw the line.
2008-04-17 16:10:23
Adamshannon8
Member
+94|6180
Every thing has an explanation there for "miracles" do not exist, and some things we do not know and there for can't explain (yet...).
2008-04-17 18:00:23
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6596|132 and Bush

Hakei wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

What happened before the Big Bang? What triggered the Big Bang? Humans do not have an answers for these questions. The only assumption we come to is time didn't exist.. so what created time? We must be part of something we don't understand. There is a reason it is called faith. It's a path people make in following the unknown. It still comes down to making a personal choice. Some of the worlds greatest scientist put great faith in the mindset of a creator. They have through out all of history (Newton comes to mind).
We have answers for these questions, yet we do not know if they are true. How can you prove something that is almost impossible to prove in the modern day, sounds a bit like religion, eh?

And judging by your theorm, if something had to create time, something had to create what created time. Therefore God must be part of something he doesn't understand, where do you draw the line.
No sir we do not have the answers to these questions. If you want to share it with the the rest of us feel free. You can't claim to have an answer and then say you don't know if it's true. The questions I asked are modern questions that are commonly talked about in astrophysics today. We still have a lot of unanswered questions.. we need a a theory for everything.

If time itself was created by something there is no need to consider a before. Meaning something did not have to create the creator. It just is.. without a start or finish. We as humans are part of time (this is why it is so difficult to understand), whereas a creator would not need to abide by the laws of before/after.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-04-17 19:40:50
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6677|Disaster Free Zone

FEOS wrote:

It will never happen.
There is NO way you can prove with out any doubt that God doesn't exist.... And why the fuck should we care or bother anyway. It should be up to the religions to prove he does exist, not the other way round.
2008-04-17 20:46:27
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6523|Portland, OR USA

DrunkFace wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It will never happen.
There is NO way you can prove with out any doubt that God doesn't exist.... And why the fuck should we care or bother anyway. It should be up to the religions to prove he does exist, not the other way round.
Exactly, and the opposite position is just as valid.  Innocent until proven guilty, exists until proven to not exist.

I agree completely with the premise that neither side can ever be proven really.  Faith is far too powerful.  Faith works either for science or religion.
2008-04-17 21:51:16
Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|6702

sergeriver wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It will never happen.
2008-04-17 21:55:25
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6357|Vancouver
I believe that the OP was intending to work on a hypothetical situation, and not the possibilities of it occurring. The entire situation is rather unrealistic, and we can likely agree loosely on that. However, could we discuss what was intended by the OP?
2008-04-17 22:06:53
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6596|132 and Bush

Drakef wrote:

However, could we discuss what was intended by the OP?
Sure, religion would evolve to fit or cease to exist. Kinda like this discussion.

/boring
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-04-17 22:39:56
doug1988
spank that azz.
+146|5854|Nibiru in a far away galaxy

cpt.fass1 wrote:

I'm talking about if science comes out with something that proves that god does not exist.. For years the chatholic church(only religion I have direct experiance with) have been reaping great rewards and avoiding lots of taxes, etc. etc..


What will happen to the organized religions? Will they get sue'd for grand larceny? Will that money be refundable?
[~~~ Hugs~~~] you:   be aware of your personal finance , from there go with your heart , an  , only what you believe

Last edited by doug1988 (2008-04-17 22:41:14)

2008-04-17 23:00:06
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6677|Disaster Free Zone

PuckMercury wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It will never happen.
There is NO way you can prove with out any doubt that God doesn't exist.... And why the fuck should we care or bother anyway. It should be up to the religions to prove he does exist, not the other way round.
Exactly, and the opposite position is just as valid.  Innocent until proven guilty, exists until proven to not exist.

I agree completely with the premise that neither side can ever be proven really.  Faith is far too powerful.  Faith works either for science or religion.
Unfortunately you have the 'innocent until proven guilty' back to front. You must prove the 'crime' existed not that it didn't. As you have to prove God exists not that they don't.
2008-04-18 00:50:26
Hakei
Banned
+295|5991

Kmarion wrote:

Hakei wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

What happened before the Big Bang? What triggered the Big Bang? Humans do not have an answers for these questions. The only assumption we come to is time didn't exist.. so what created time? We must be part of something we don't understand. There is a reason it is called faith. It's a path people make in following the unknown. It still comes down to making a personal choice. Some of the worlds greatest scientist put great faith in the mindset of a creator. They have through out all of history (Newton comes to mind).
We have answers for these questions, yet we do not know if they are true. How can you prove something that is almost impossible to prove in the modern day, sounds a bit like religion, eh?

And judging by your theorm, if something had to create time, something had to create what created time. Therefore God must be part of something he doesn't understand, where do you draw the line.
No sir we do not have the answers to these questions. If you want to share it with the the rest of us feel free. You can't claim to have an answer and then say you don't know if it's true. The questions I asked are modern questions that are commonly talked about in astrophysics today. We still have a lot of unanswered questions.. we need a a theory for everything.

If time itself was created by something there is no need to consider a before. Meaning something did not have to create the creator. It just is.. without a start or finish. We as humans are part of time (this is why it is so difficult to understand), whereas a creator would not need to abide by the laws of before/after.
Anti matter and matter had sex. That's a theory for the big bang.

What do you mean you can't claim to have the answer and say you don't know if it's true? This thread is about religion, that's pretty much the basis of every religion, an answer that can not be proven.

You asked modern questions, such as what happened before the big bang, that's what...13 billion years ago?
2008-04-18 01:07:04
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6596|132 and Bush

Hakei wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Hakei wrote:

We have answers for these questions, yet we do not know if they are true. How can you prove something that is almost impossible to prove in the modern day, sounds a bit like religion, eh?

And judging by your theorm, if something had to create time, something had to create what created time. Therefore God must be part of something he doesn't understand, where do you draw the line.
No sir we do not have the answers to these questions. If you want to share it with the the rest of us feel free. You can't claim to have an answer and then say you don't know if it's true. The questions I asked are modern questions that are commonly talked about in astrophysics today. We still have a lot of unanswered questions.. we need a a theory for everything.

If time itself was created by something there is no need to consider a before. Meaning something did not have to create the creator. It just is.. without a start or finish. We as humans are part of time (this is why it is so difficult to understand), whereas a creator would not need to abide by the laws of before/after.
Anti matter and matter had sex. That's a theory for the big bang.
Just don't.

Hakei wrote:

What do you mean you can't claim to have the answer and say you don't know if it's true? This thread is about religion, that's pretty much the basis of every religion, an answer that can not be proven.
Thus your answer is no better than the suggestion of a Creator. Neither are provable, observable, or definitive.

Hakei wrote:

You asked modern questions, such as what happened before the big bang, that's what...13 billion years ago?
Considering how long man has been studying the cosmos the Big Bang is a relatively new answer/theory to an old question.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-04-18 01:22:49
Hakei
Banned
+295|5991

Kmarion wrote:

Hakei wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

No sir we do not have the answers to these questions. If you want to share it with the the rest of us feel free. You can't claim to have an answer and then say you don't know if it's true. The questions I asked are modern questions that are commonly talked about in astrophysics today. We still have a lot of unanswered questions.. we need a a theory for everything.

If time itself was created by something there is no need to consider a before. Meaning something did not have to create the creator. It just is.. without a start or finish. We as humans are part of time (this is why it is so difficult to understand), whereas a creator would not need to abide by the laws of before/after.
Anti matter and matter had sex. That's a theory for the big bang.
Just don't.

Hakei wrote:

What do you mean you can't claim to have the answer and say you don't know if it's true? This thread is about religion, that's pretty much the basis of every religion, an answer that can not be proven.
Thus your answer is no better than the suggestion of a Creator. Neither are provable, observable, or definitive.

Hakei wrote:

You asked modern questions, such as what happened before the big bang, that's what...13 billion years ago?
Considering how long man has been studying the cosmos the Big Bang is a relatively new answer/theory to an old question.
What's your problem with the antimatter and matter theorm?

Thus your answer is no better than the suggestion of a Creator. Neither are provable, observable, or definitive.
That is exactly what I said, but thanks for rewording it.
The point was, if a child asks you how the universe was made and you was from a religious background, you would SAY what you believed was true, without the aid of the answer being provable, observable or definitive. People still have answers for questions, even if it's not something that can be proved.

If time itself was created by something there is no need to consider a before. Meaning something did not have to create the creator. It just is.. without a start or finish.
Why is there no need to consider a before? For the creator to exist it must have been made, unless you're assuming it just appeared out of no where, an easy cop out for that being possible is saying that they do not exist in a world that has a before/after, a world in which our modern day physics do not apply. Therefore something had to create that world in which they do not exist, that emptiness that doesn't have physics, that sand box of a universe maker.
2008-04-18 01:42:09
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6449|The Twilight Zone
You can't prove you can only believe or disbelieve.
https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
2008-04-18 01:45:45
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6596|132 and Bush

Hakei wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Hakei wrote:

Anti matter and matter had sex. That's a theory for the big bang.
Just don't.

Hakei wrote:

What do you mean you can't claim to have the answer and say you don't know if it's true? This thread is about religion, that's pretty much the basis of every religion, an answer that can not be proven.
Thus your answer is no better than the suggestion of a Creator. Neither are provable, observable, or definitive.

Hakei wrote:

You asked modern questions, such as what happened before the big bang, that's what...13 billion years ago?
Considering how long man has been studying the cosmos the Big Bang is a relatively new answer/theory to an old question.
What's your problem with the antimatter and matter theorm?
It doesn't add up. This has been known for some time now. The problem was your ambiguous over simplification in suggesting a solution.

Hakei wrote:

Thus your answer is no better than the suggestion of a Creator. Neither are provable, observable, or definitive.
That is exactly what I said, but thanks for rewording it.
The point was, if a child asks you how the universe was made and you was from a religious background, you would SAY what you believed was true, without the aid of the answer being provable, observable or definitive. People still have answers for questions, even if it's not something that can be proved.
insert common sense We don't have proven answers. None of us do.

Hakei wrote:

If time itself was created by something there is no need to consider a before. Meaning something did not have to create the creator. It just is.. without a start or finish.
Why is there no need to consider a before? For the creator to exist it must have been made, unless you're assuming it just appeared out of no where, an easy cop out for that being possible is saying that they do not exist in a world that has a before/after, a world in which our modern day physics do not apply. Therefore something had to create that world in which they do not exist, that emptiness that doesn't have physics, that sand box of a universe maker.
It's not a "cop out". In the absence of time we only have "being". So long as you commit yourself to thinking of existence in the linear form you will never be able to understand this. There will always be more what else's for those who can't expand their intellectual horizon enough to comprehend something greater than self. The human mind can not grasp things that our not restricted by time. It's either you accept a continuous line of asking before, or you realize that what ever created the universe was not bound by the same physical laws we are.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-04-18 01:53:26
doug1988
spank that azz.
+146|5854|Nibiru in a far away galaxy
He's watching

 

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