God - BF2S Forums

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Question About God

God doesn't exist	87%	87% - 42
God exists, but just doesn't listen to people's prayers	12%	12% - 6
Total: 48

2008-04-15 22:05:26

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6977|Canberra, AUS

pierro wrote:
This might help as a sort of proof for a deity :
The idea is that the laws of physics are so finely tuned (most notably the cosmological constant which is tuned to about 10^40) so that a universe with planets etc... can develop. When you combine all those factors together... well I don't need to tell you how large those numbers are, suffice it to say that we could, sit here counting up to that number until the end of time and still wouldn't come close. In short it is statistically impossible for a single universe to develop. This means that if there is only one set of physics, there is a god.

Of course the argument against that is obviously that there might be many or even an infinite amount of universises (as proponents of m-theory [string theory's succesor] suggest) with many or an infinite amount of different laws of physics. However, changing the laws of physics would mean that in some universise, there is no inherant randomness as quantum mechanics demonstrates. If there is no randomness then the future is predictable to the point of predicting future human activity (just plug in all the data from the big bang into the super computer and model where all the particles will go [this is possible using 3 Dimensional processors, concept models IBM has already built]) which is of course impossible as one cannot predict the future without changing it. This presents a paradox and the only thing that can defeat a paradox is a being of unlimited power (what I mean is the question "can god create a stone so heavy even he/she could not lift it" can be solved by saying god could do that and then would lift it...a truly all powerful being that I am describing could defeat logic). Thus, if there multiple laws of physics then a god exists.

Simply put, in either possible scenario a god exists...if you do not believe this or find problems with it, please state why as this is the bedrock of my own beliefs

I am absolutely astonished that you have such a confident figure for the cosmological constant. It is very debatable whether it is needed, and if so, what figure it should have.

In fact as far as I know there is close to no substantial data on which ANY cosmological constant figure can be based on.

---

-What I am talking about is a Newtonian or Einstenien universe, where the movements of subatomic particles are not inherantly random. I think that is where the problems are arising

Unfourtunately that isn't the case any more. All particle movements are inherently random within the limits set by the uncertainty principle, and there is nothing you can do to change that. We live in a quantum universe now.

---

The whole idea of God is that it is an unprovable concept.

I'm sorry if I wasn't able to articulate it properly...the jist of what I was saying was that if universal forces such as the force of gravity were changed by as little as .0000000001% or something like that (I'm generalizing for simplicity's sake) planets would not form. This means that that the probability of a universe forming with laws of physics is astronomically low. It is for that reason, I concluded that it is statistically impossible for there to be only one universe, laws of physics etc... without a higher power... that leads into my next paragraph

I think what has happened here is that you've fallen in to the a posteriori logic trap. Basically you've made a situation sound more fateful and special than it actually is purely because you don't know the alternate situations.

Last edited by Spark (2008-04-15 22:12:56)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2008-04-15 22:16:52

SenorToenails: Veritas et Scientia; +444|6432|North Tonawanda, NY

pierro wrote:
-They necessitate god, because if there is only one universe and one set of physics (ours) the odds of it being a system which would allow the formation of life i.e. gravity allowing planets to come together is so astronomical that two possibilities remain
1) There is a creator
2) There is more then one set of physics (below is designed as a proof for a creator if there are more then one set of physics)

I don't make that connection. This is essentially unprovable, since even if there were more than one set of physical laws, we have never experienced them. This is like comparing apples to oranges. I can't argue for the chances of a universe developing just like ours, other than to say it happened. I don't think that is evidence for god, since we don't know if there are more.

pierro wrote:
-What I am talking about is a Newtonian or Einstenien universe, where the movements of subatomic particles are not inherantly random. I think that is where the problems are arising

Newtonian physics is large scale. If quantum mechanics were to exist on a larger scale, the world would be very different. I think my confusion arises from this: gravity (general relativity) and quantum mechanics have not yet been linked. The scale of action on gravity is so large, that most other forces have nothing to do with it, so it would simpler (in comparison) to predict motion. Newtonian physics to not describe motion on a small scale, nor do they attempt to.

pierro wrote:
-That was a side note and is directly relevant, hydrogen was an example not a justification...also what does the krebs cycle have to do with this (Checking it now on wikipedia didn't really tell me much)

The Krebs cycle is a complex function in nature. I was showing that as another example where natural processes are not simple. The laws of nature are anything but simple.

pierro wrote:
-The idea is that in a newtonian universe (for lack of a better word), everything is inherantly predicatble if all data is taken into account. If one were to do this with a computer, for example they could predict the future...this does not make sense because you cannot predict the future without changing it. Thus, if these universes don't have internal logic, there must be a god as god is the only thing that can defy logic (a truly all powerful being could make 2+2=5)...

So you propose a universe which does not exist, then say that because that could exist (by your declaration alone), it would defy logic. Therefore god exists.

That is bad logic.

pierro wrote:
-The programmer thing was a scenario meant to override the counterclaim that you made that this was an implausible scenario that the computer would be built and programmed etc.... I was trying to argue, that all that would have to occur is if there was the possibility of it being built and I used the example of the programmer...I was trying to say that either way before this individual pushed this button, god would exist because it would be a ridiculousness notion to say that god's existance would depend on the push of a button as god if it existed would exist before the programmer pushed the button...so this entire scenario occuring is not needed

That proves nothing, then. If someone said "God's existence depends on the result of this experiment", I would laugh. I do not think anything can prove or disprove god, since no one knows what caused the big bang to actually happen.

pierro wrote:
-As for the schrodinger's cat thing...it was meant as a superficial example to illustrate the implausibility of god both existing and not beforehand

OK, then I understood you well enough.

pierro wrote:
-As an aside as well, I am saying essentially the same thing as I was in my first post here (though articulated better now). I am by no means all that great at articulating what I am saying, so if you're having trouble trying to understand what I'm saying now and are ambivalent about it, well it will take a very long time for me to show you what I mean. Also, I may have confused the terminology and confusingly used them interchangably, I am not trying to prove the existence of god in the traditional sense, but that of an omnipotent creator.

I assumed you meant an abstract god, not any one in particular, since no scripture or denominationally specific language was used.

pierro wrote:
-also I think we can agree on this overall statement: Futurama>Creationists

Definitely.

2008-04-15 22:29:25

mikkel: Member; +383|6903

Who knows? Surely none of us.

If a god exists somewhere, though, he sure is being a sack of shit about his existence, though, and if he really is an almighty saviour, I'm not too sure that I'd want to spend all of eternity around some egomaniacal guy who, for several millenia, was hanging back and watching the death and destruction down here, only to get bored of it, destroy the world, and save only those who've been worshipping him.

I'd say the whole "god" thing is getting to his head, should he exist.

2008-04-16 02:32:45

DrunkFace: Germans did 911; +427|6983|Disaster Free Zone

https://stardate.org/images/gallery/sun5.jpg

= God

2008-04-16 02:40:34

doug1988: spank that azz.; +146|6160|Nibiru in a far away galaxy

I null my vote.

2008-04-16 02:43:12

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6857

No. Anyone who says otherwise - prove it.

2008-04-16 02:49:18

LividBovine: The Year of the Cow!; +175|6682|MN

CameronPoe wrote:
No. Anyone who says otherwise - prove it.

Bad mood today Cam?

"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)

2008-04-16 02:50:04

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6713|'Murka

You have far too few choices for the topic. If you have boiled the possibilities down to just those two...you clearly have some more thinking to do.

As others have said, listening to your prayers and answering them are two different things. And who's to say the answer isn't "no" sometimes?

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-04-16 03:32:23

bakinacake: HA HA; +383|6288|Aus, Qld

If God doesn't exist, how can you explain the starting of the universe? A big bang? The chances of everything lining up perfectly so that it creates an astronomical explosion big enough to create billions of planets, stars, galaxys, must be so incredibly low...

If the Earth is millions of years old, it would have decayed itself to non recognition, i mean look what has happened in the last 2,000 years, the amount of destruction, the horrors, the chaos, and sin would have just been too much for the world to take.

Big Bang? I think not..

2008-04-16 03:36:57

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6857

bakinacake wrote:
If God doesn't exist, how can you explain the starting of the universe? A big bang? The chances of everything lining up perfectly so that it creates an astronomical explosion big enough to create billions of planets, stars, galaxys, must be so incredibly low...

If the Earth is millions of years old, it would have decayed itself to non recognition, i mean look what has happened in the last 2,000 years, the amount of destruction, the horrors, the chaos, and sin would have just been too much for the world to take.

Big Bang? I think not..

Why must there be a 'creator'? What you should be asking is what preceded the big bang. Human minds are feebly endowed to understand concepts like infinity, complexity and vastness. The human mind seeks to assign simplistic explanations to highly complex things - we worshipped the sun at one point. There is no necessity for a 'creator' nor could there ever be proof of one. Whatsmore, assigning human traits and characteristics to such a phenomenon is rather odd. If there ever was a 'start' to time-space then that was simply a scientific event - no deity need have been involved. I don't personally believe there ever was a 'start' anyway. Quantum mechanics and the mechanics of large objects alone can be so mind boggling that to think we know anything more than a small drop in the ocean about the universe is naive.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-16 03:40:24)

2008-04-16 03:42:10

SenorToenails: Veritas et Scientia; +444|6432|North Tonawanda, NY

bakinacake wrote:
If God doesn't exist, how can you explain the starting of the universe? A big bang? The chances of everything lining up perfectly so that it creates an astronomical explosion big enough to create billions of planets, stars, galaxys, must be so incredibly low...

If the Earth is millions of years old, it would have decayed itself to non recognition, i mean look what has happened in the last 2,000 years, the amount of destruction, the horrors, the chaos, and sin would have just been too much for the world to take.

Big Bang? I think not..

I can ask equally absurd questions, like "Where did god come from?"

Yes, everything works out beautifully in nature. But why does that necessitate a god?

2008-04-16 03:52:11

bakinacake: HA HA; +383|6288|Aus, Qld

CameronPoe wrote:
bakinacake wrote:
If God doesn't exist, how can you explain the starting of the universe? A big bang? The chances of everything lining up perfectly so that it creates an astronomical explosion big enough to create billions of planets, stars, galaxys, must be so incredibly low...

If the Earth is millions of years old, it would have decayed itself to non recognition, i mean look what has happened in the last 2,000 years, the amount of destruction, the horrors, the chaos, and sin would have just been too much for the world to take.

Big Bang? I think not..
Why must there be a 'creator'? What you should be asking is what preceded the big bang. Human minds are feebly endowed to understand concepts like infinity, complexity and vastness. The human mind seeks to assign simplistic explanations to highly complex things - we worshipped the sun at one point. There is no necessity for a 'creator' nor could there ever be proof of one.

I'm going to guess before the creation of the universe there was nothing, no gravity, no time, no space, just blackness, how would we even be here, if there was nothing? I know what was before the big bang, nothing, except God, heaven, and Angels to worship God. How about you give me information from someone who was there before the big bang?

Also: God didn't come from anywhere, he was always there, always has, always will.

Last edited by bakinacake (2008-04-16 03:53:19)

2008-04-16 03:54:50

SenorToenails: Veritas et Scientia; +444|6432|North Tonawanda, NY

bakinacake wrote:
I'm going to guess before the creation of the universe there was nothing, no gravity, no time, no space, just blackness, how would we even be here, if there was nothing? I know what was before the big bang, nothing, except God, heaven, and Angels to worship God. How about you give me information from someone who was there before the big bang?

Also: God didn't come from anywhere, he was always there, always has, always will.

Then why is it so inconceivable that the universe was always there?

2008-04-16 04:03:06

bakinacake: HA HA; +383|6288|Aus, Qld

SenorToenails wrote:
bakinacake wrote:
I'm going to guess before the creation of the universe there was nothing, no gravity, no time, no space, just blackness, how would we even be here, if there was nothing? I know what was before the big bang, nothing, except God, heaven, and Angels to worship God. How about you give me information from someone who was there before the big bang?

Also: God didn't come from anywhere, he was always there, always has, always will.
Then why is it so inconceivable that the universe was always there?

The Bible wrote:
Genesis 1
The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2008-04-16 04:05:41

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6857

bakinacake wrote:
I'm going to guess before the creation of the universe there was nothing, no gravity, no time, no space, just blackness, how would we even be here, if there was nothing? I know what was before the big bang, nothing, except God, heaven, and Angels to worship God. How about you give me information from someone who was there before the big bang?

Also: God didn't come from anywhere, he was always there, always has, always will.

So you're going to base your assertion that God exists on a 'guess'. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

And then you dismiss the concept that the universe, which quite plainly exists, cannot have been around forever while at the same time assert that 'God', for whose existence there quite quite exists no proof, has been around forever. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

2008-04-16 04:06:37

SenorToenails: Veritas et Scientia; +444|6432|North Tonawanda, NY

bakinacake wrote:
The Bible wrote:
Genesis 1
The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

I should have known I would get scripture.

2008-04-16 04:07:04

bakinacake: HA HA; +383|6288|Aus, Qld

SenorToenails wrote:
bakinacake wrote:
The Bible wrote:
Genesis 1
The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
I should have known I would get scripture.

Cause the big man himself said it...

2008-04-16 04:08:15

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6857

bakinacake wrote:
Cause the big man himself said it...

Actually that was written by some desert sheep herders, but whatever.

2008-04-16 04:09:07

bakinacake: HA HA; +383|6288|Aus, Qld

CameronPoe wrote:
bakinacake wrote:
Cause the big man himself said it...
Actually that was written by some desert sheep herders, but whatever.

God told sheep herders what to say..

2008-04-16 04:09:37

SenorToenails: Veritas et Scientia; +444|6432|North Tonawanda, NY

bakinacake wrote:
Cause the big man himself said it...

The big man himself has also said the Earth does not move. Should I believe that?

You base your arguments on something unprovable. "God exists because god said so", right?

2008-04-16 04:19:54

bakinacake: HA HA; +383|6288|Aus, Qld

SenorToenails wrote:
bakinacake wrote:
Cause the big man himself said it...
The big man himself has also said the Earth does not move. Should I believe that?

You base your arguments on something unprovable. "God exists because god said so", right?

God exists because millions upon millions of people believe he does, he has given us so many things, and that he has helped millions of people. I mean for goodness sake, his son died for us, would you let your son die for the world, and their sins? If people choose not to accept that he loves them, and is there, you can have a chat about that when you die.

2008-04-16 04:23:34

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6857

bakinacake wrote:
CameronPoe wrote:
bakinacake wrote:
Cause the big man himself said it...
Actually that was written by some desert sheep herders, but whatever.
God told sheep herders what to say..

Who told God what to tell the sheep herders?

2008-04-16 04:25:00

bakinacake: HA HA; +383|6288|Aus, Qld

CameronPoe wrote:
bakinacake wrote:
CameronPoe wrote:

Actually that was written by some desert sheep herders, but whatever.
God told sheep herders what to say..
Who told God what to tell the sheep herders?

Noone, he said what he said, and i didn't think you thought God was real?

2008-04-16 04:44:12

sergeriver: Cowboy from Hell; +1,928|7059|Argentina

Where's the "I'm agnostic and I don't fucking know" option?

2008-04-16 04:44:51

DesertFox-: The very model of a modern major general; +796|6987|United States of America

CameronPoe wrote:
No. Anyone who says otherwise - prove it.

We've been through this already, dammit. I thought we came to an impasse where actual physical proof to benefit either side is nigh on impossible. From my point of view, the burden of proof that there isn't is on you guys, yet you put it on us. The earthly argument on to whether or not there is any number of gods is foolish. However, if there is an afterlife, I suggest we all meet up there and commence the debate at that place and time.

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CameronPoe wrote:

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