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2008-04-14 04:11:48
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7262|Cologne, Germany

Braddock wrote:

imortal wrote:

Braddock wrote:


That's how I feel too about flag burning too and seen as there will always be idiots who might do it it's better to not even dignify them with your attention. Think of it this way, every time you see an idiot burning an American flag it is a victory for the very freedom that flag represents. It renders the idiots burning of the flag to be ironically pointless.
Yes, but do not claim to be 'patriotic' and 'love america' when you burn the most visible symbol of the nation, which in itself, symbolic of destroying the very things the flag and, by extension, the nation stands for.

People from countries outside of the US burning the flag; no problem.  I get irritated at seeing it, but not a blinding rage.  When I see americans burning the symbol of their own freedom, I get rather more upset.

But I still believe they have the right to do it.  Of course, I also believe that suicide should be a right as well.  You can not fix stupid by passing a law.
Well I don't think anyone burning the flag can claim to be patriotic to be honest. The flag is the ultimate symbol of the state...the state you're supposedly patriotic over...to burn the flag means burning everything it symbolises, the good and the bad. For example I consider myself patriotic and would march and complain against anything the Irish Government did that I disagreed with but I would never burn the tricolour.
why should a US citizen who burns an US flag not feel patriotic in doing so ? From my point of view, the Flag represents the Union, and a lot of people were opposed to that from the start, If I remember correctly. Maybe the flag is being burned out of opposition against the federal government and what it has become ?
Everyone has his own interpretation of patriotism.
A lot of people in the south of the US fly the old confederate flag, I believe. I bet they don't feel unpatriotic in doing so...
2008-04-14 04:24:35
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

imortal wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Lowing I have two questions for you...

1. Would you be happier if it was against the law to burn the flag?

I'll post the second when you respond to this one.
I am not Lowing, of course, but I will swing at answering it myself.  I think they should have the right to burn the flag if they want, but I reserve the right to despise them for doing so.

"I do not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire
My point all along.
Nope, it should not be against the law. This thread has nothing to do with law. It is about patriotism. And liberals have every right, regardless of the hypocrisy of it, to be as un-patriotic as they see fit.

My point all along
2008-04-14 04:27:59
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

And if it is not then it is ok? Sounds great, I already live in a secluded nieghborhood with no chance that the fire can spread to any of their houses. I just need to make sure no one gets hurt right, then I am just burning wood and not comitting arson?
It appears lowing is drifting further and further from reality with every passing post. Are you seriously likening the threat of a fire spreading from a burnt cloth to that of a burning building? This getting hilarious.

lowing - you seem to be the most anal person on earth. What is the big fucking deal about some random idiots burning flags? You blow things so way out of proportion you'd think the non-burning of flags is what populates the earth's atmosphere with oxygen! For a man who bleats on about personal freedoms so much you must have to do some serious reconciliation inside your own head before you speak/post sometimes.

Idiots burn flags. Nobody gets hurt. Big fucking deal. Get the fuck over it you statist cry baby.
The claim was made that the flag is just "cloth". So I made the the assumption, based on that view of our flag, that my house was just wood.

The point being my house is more than just wood, like our flag is more than just cloth.

I will also say that it seems odd that if you ( Braddock, Cam) really believe that the flag is just "cloth" and nothing more, why then, do you despise people that burn it? It is after all, just cloth, right? I think you do not even believe the bullshit you are trying to pass in this thread.

Last edited by lowing (2008-04-14 04:30:39)

2008-04-14 04:31:27
doug1988
spank that azz.
+146|6279|Nibiru in a far away galaxy
If a person who burns a flag in a country they are in should just leave and go to another country to burn such flag , I know it's just material , but when you do such an act you are expressing your dislike on for mention country  , and if you're BORN in the same country , then you need to find another way to show your anger.
2008-04-14 05:13:43
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6976

lowing wrote:

I will also say that it seems odd that if you ( Braddock, Cam) really believe that the flag is just "cloth" and nothing more, why then, do you despise people that burn it? It is after all, just cloth, right? I think you do not even believe the bullshit you are trying to pass in this thread.
lol

It annoys me because they are burning a symbol of my country. I recognise it as an inconsequential triviality however, unlike you. You need to do some serious issue prioritization in your head.

As someone else quoted:

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-14 05:24:06)

2008-04-14 06:03:23
imortal
Member
+240|7086|Austin, TX

jaymz9350 wrote:

imortal wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Lowing I have two questions for you...

1. Would you be happier if it was against the law to burn the flag?

I'll post the second when you respond to this one.
I am not Lowing, of course, but I will swing at answering it myself.  I think they should have the right to burn the flag if they want, but I reserve the right to despise them for doing so.

"I do not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire
exactly.  no matter how much you hate it, it falls under the protections that make this country what it is.  and on a side note if i remember correctly the proper way to dispose of a worn flag is to burn it. (i know different context)
Yes, and cremation is also a recognized technique of 'disposing' of a human body.  But should you equate the cremation of a person in a funural ceremony with burning a body in the streets during a riot?  It is a manner of respect given during the act.  Yes, you burn the flag.  But there are preparatory acts you conduct first.
2008-04-14 07:34:21
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7102|Disaster Free Zone

lowing wrote:

The claim was made that the flag is just "cloth". So I made the the assumption, based on that view of our flag, that my house was just wood.

The point being my house is more than just wood, like our flag is more than just cloth.
Your house is just wood. I couldn't give 2 fucks if you burnt your house down, just like I don't give 2 fucks if someone burns their flag.

lowing wrote:

I will also say that it seems odd that if you ( Braddock, Cam) really believe that the flag is just "cloth" and nothing more, why then, do you despise people that burn it? It is after all, just cloth, right? I think you do not even believe the bullshit you are trying to pass in this thread.
As I said, I couldn't care less if people burnt a flag, because it is JUST a flag.

I never understood Americas almost fanatical patriotism to a fucking flag, and quiet frankly it makes me sick. One thing which stands out, was a topic to 'represent your country' by a video.

Phrozenbot wrote:



oh yea
I have no problem being proud of your country or the flag... But fuck me, that video is just way over the top. Seriously there is (or at least there should be) more to a country then its flag.
2008-04-14 08:13:23
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6948|Portland, OR USA
I think CP really completely encapsulates my feelings on the matter.  I abhor the act personally, but also recognize the necessity for such an act to be permitted as expression.  Denial of the destruction of a symbol when freedom of expression is a constituent member of that symbol does more to undermine the strength of that freedom than its symbol's destruction.
2008-04-14 09:37:49
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6711|Éire

Last edited by Braddock (2008-04-14 09:39:23)

2008-04-14 16:35:30
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6832|'Murka

DrunkFace wrote:

I never understood Americas almost fanatical patriotism to a fucking flag, and quiet frankly it makes me sick.

...Seriously there is (or at least there should be) more to a country then its flag.
It's not patriotism to the flag, ffs. It's patriotism to what the flag represents. It is a symbol, which is why people burn it. For the same reason people want to burn it (it is a symbol of America), people despise those who burn it (it is a symbol of America).

There is far, far more to this country than the flag...or what you see reported on international media, for that matter.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-04-14 16:55:52
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6963|Texas - Bigger than France

Pug wrote:

Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the the flag."
__________________

Discuss.

Ps. You flag burners suck
Back to the original, if anyone wants to talk about the rest of the quote.

Self criticism is the most sacred of values within a democracy.  Those who provide an unpopular opinion have the right to voice their concerns as well as those who support it without question.  When things aren't quite as great, those who instigate positive change on the country are those who have the guts to voice their own opinion.

The second part has to do with the duty of the solider and their role.  I was hoping for some to spend some time discussing this in detail.  Soliders sometimes has to do things they disagree with, but they do so understanding the act is for the greater good of the country.  They even perform tasks that may not be appreciated by the public, but again they do so believing the service for the common good.  And that is, above all, why I respect soliders everywhere.  Even those killed by our own troops.
2008-04-14 17:02:04
HurricaИe
Banned
+877|6382|Washington DC
I hopefully would never burn the US flag. The things this country was built on, what it is supposed to stand for are great things to me. Freedom, liberty, justice, equality? Sounds like a deal... much better than a lot of countries. A lot of them.

If people are pissed at the government, why burn a symbol of the document that lets them burn it? Why not burn a picture of the terrible leaders instead? The United States did nothing wrong... the United States government did.
2008-04-14 17:15:54
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6711|Éire

HurricaИe wrote:

I hopefully would never burn the US flag. The things this country was built on, what it is supposed to stand for are great things to me. Freedom, liberty, justice, equality? Sounds like a deal... much better than a lot of countries. A lot of them.

If people are pissed at the government, why burn a symbol of the document that lets them burn it? Why not burn a picture of the terrible leaders instead? The United States did nothing wrong... the United States government did.
Exactly and it brings us back to a very important thing that we've learned from this thread...people who burn the flag are idiots who don't even see the irony in what they're doing. Burning pictures or even effigies of the incumbent leaders responsible for what you disagree with would make infinitely more sense.
2008-04-15 01:50:41
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7262|Cologne, Germany

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

And if it is not then it is ok? Sounds great, I already live in a secluded nieghborhood with no chance that the fire can spread to any of their houses. I just need to make sure no one gets hurt right, then I am just burning wood and not comitting arson?
It appears lowing is drifting further and further from reality with every passing post. Are you seriously likening the threat of a fire spreading from a burnt cloth to that of a burning building? This getting hilarious.

lowing - you seem to be the most anal person on earth. What is the big fucking deal about some random idiots burning flags? You blow things so way out of proportion you'd think the non-burning of flags is what populates the earth's atmosphere with oxygen! For a man who bleats on about personal freedoms so much you must have to do some serious reconciliation inside your own head before you speak/post sometimes.

Idiots burn flags. Nobody gets hurt. Big fucking deal. Get the fuck over it you statist cry baby.
The claim was made that the flag is just "cloth". So I made the the assumption, based on that view of our flag, that my house was just wood.

The point being my house is more than just wood, like our flag is more than just cloth.

I will also say that it seems odd that if you ( Braddock, Cam) really believe that the flag is just "cloth" and nothing more, why then, do you despise people that burn it? It is after all, just cloth, right? I think you do not even believe the bullshit you are trying to pass in this thread.
well, lowing, I guess what the flag and your house have in common is that both represent private property that is protected from illegal destructuion by legislation. From that point of view, if a flag was burnt, the owner could demand that he be compensated for the loss, and the perpetrator would face charges. The same would be true for your house, lowing, if it should ever be burnt down, or otherwise destroyed or damaged as the result of a criminal act. You'd sue the guy and make him pay for a new house. Easy as that.

From that point of view, there is no difference between a flag for 2$ and any other privately owned object, whatever it may be worth.

The other side of the coin is the cultural aspect. Your house, lowing, is of limited cultural value for the US. It represents something to yourself, and possibly your family, that is all ( no offense intended ).
The flag, however, is a symbol for America in its entirety. It is the symbol of a nation, and all it stands for. But can you put a pricetag on that, so to speak ?

Is America damaged when its flag is burned ? Hardly. America is what it is, regardless of what happens to its flag.

Of course, flag-burning is wrong. But should someone who has burned a flag be punished more than what the flag was worth ?
I don't think so.
2008-04-15 02:04:01
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6574|what

B.Schuss wrote:

Of course, flag-burning is wrong. But should someone who has burned a flag be punished more than what the flag was worth ?
I don't think so.
Well I think that the punishment should also suite the intentions of the flag burner. If it was someone burning a flag at an anti-war rally for example, the symbolism of the act is of greater consequence than, say, a homeless person who burns the flag for warmth on a cold winters night.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2008-04-15 03:42:32
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA
The only claim I make on this issue is, flag burning is un-patriotic, and who primarily condones it? Liberals, Who primarly carries out such action?Liberals.

I never said anything about how it should illegal, or how people that do it should go to jail.

When you burn a countries flag, you are not protesting a govt. you are protesting a country. and you are disrespecting every soildier that has been buried with that flag drapped over their coffin. Period. You can what if me to death or quote me free speech this, and Constitution that, whatever, the bottom line is, again, it is un-patriotic.
2008-04-15 03:54:35
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6757|Oregon
Yes, once the soldier did give us those things.

Now, the powers that command our military use our soldiers for despicable, fascist reasons.

I fucking loathe the way the United States is currently run, and although I respect our flag as a symbol of independence and liberty, I find it's use as a nationalistic brand to be disgusting.

lowing wrote:

When you burn a countries flag, you are not protesting a govt. you are protesting a country. and you are disrespecting every soildier that has been buried with that flag drapped over their coffin. Period. You can what if me to death or quote me free speech this, and Constitution that, whatever, the bottom line is, again, it is un-patriotic.
Who are you to say what one is protesting? Who are you to say who is being disrespected?
The word "patriot" means so many different things to so many different people. I, for one, find blind faith in the government to be terribly unpatriotic. And Lowing, it was dissent from which America and Americans were borne. Dissent develops democracy... but you're pushing for fascism anyway, so why would that matter to you?

Last edited by djphetal (2008-04-15 04:02:06)

2008-04-15 03:55:32
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6976
How many liberals burn flags? Do you think you will find Hillary or Obama burning flags? Do you honestly believe they would want to? Do you honestly believe a significant portion of the liberal half of America do not think flag burning is tasteless?

Bottom line is that lowing wants to reinforce his black and white stereotypical view of the world with the notion that everyone who votes Democrat rejoices when a flag is burned. You are probably one of the most extremist people on this forum. Something has eaten away the middle-ground rational view of reality section of your brain. Time and again you have shown yourself to be a petty tunnel-visioned entrenched person unable to deal with the fact that people who disagree with you are not communists/flag burners/terrorists/etc.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-15 03:57:34)

2008-04-15 04:01:14
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6794|Kyiv, Ukraine

lowing wrote:

The only claim I make on this issue is, flag burning is un-patriotic, and who primarily condones it? Liberals, Who primarly carries out such action?Liberals.

I never said anything about how it should illegal, or how people that do it should go to jail.

When you burn a countries flag, you are not protesting a govt. you are protesting a country. and you are disrespecting every soildier that has been buried with that flag drapped over their coffin. Period. You can what if me to death or quote me free speech this, and Constitution that, whatever, the bottom line is, again, it is un-patriotic.
Dude, you ever get tired of being wrong?

Libertarians (constitutional conservatives) actually are the first to "condone" it, liberals see it as necessary not to go down the path of restricting free speech, but there hasn't been an incident of note with any liberal groups.

The majority of flag-burnings domestically are carried out by Anarchists, which are most decidedly not liberals, and radical Christian groups, again not liberal.  On the foreign front, conservatives of the ultra-conservative persuasion are the flag burners.

I think draping a flag over a coffin is disrespectful to the soldier.  A final "screw you" from Uncle Sam to the dear departed.  A way of saying "You were a useful piece of cannon fodder in life, now you'll make good patriotic imagery for us even in death.  When your loved ones hang that flag on the wall, they'll remember their sacrifice for the 'freedom' we lied about while we enriched our own friends at your kid's expense."

Or something like that...maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate...or maybe somewhere around carrying my 20th flag-draped coffin I got a little cynical.

When are you going to sign up Lowing, or did you already?
2008-04-15 04:03:44
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6976
Uh oh GTT - don't dazzle lowing with facts. He has it all worked out in his head. Conservatives = Good. Liberals = Bad. Anarchists = Bad. -> Anarchists = Liberals. QED.

There are only two categorizations in politics GTT - Liberal and Conservative, didn't you know that?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-15 04:05:13)

2008-04-15 04:29:03
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

djphetal wrote:

Yes, once the soldier did give us those things.

Now, the powers that command our military use our soldiers for despicable, fascist reasons.

I fucking loathe the way the United States is currently run, and although I respect our flag as a symbol of independence and liberty, I find it's use as a nationalistic brand to be disgusting.

lowing wrote:

When you burn a countries flag, you are not protesting a govt. you are protesting a country. and you are disrespecting every soildier that has been buried with that flag drapped over their coffin. Period. You can what if me to death or quote me free speech this, and Constitution that, whatever, the bottom line is, again, it is un-patriotic.
Who are you to say what one is protesting? Who are you to say who is being disrespected?
The word "patriot" means so many different things to so many different people. I, for one, find blind faith in the government to be terribly unpatriotic. And Lowing, it was dissent from which America and Americans were borne. Dissent develops democracy... but you're pushing for fascism anyway, so why would that matter to you?
I do not decide what patriotism is, the dictionary does that. and clearly burning a countries flag, does not show respect, or love for that country.

I defy you to stand by your words and quote ANYTHING I have said that says I am pushing for fascism. The only rule is, unfortunately for you, is you must keep the quote in context.
2008-04-15 04:30:53
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7262|Cologne, Germany

*goes to get flameshield*
2008-04-15 04:33:50
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6574|what

lowing wrote:

I do not decide what patriotism is, the dictionary does that.
There's your first mistake.

lowing wrote:

and clearly burning a countries flag, does not show respect, or love for that country.
In one way, it shows more than love, it shows devotion to it. If you were so enraged by the treatment of your current government and what is has done to your country to burn the flag, it shows how much you do care for it.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2008-04-15 04:45:42
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7262|Cologne, Germany

Merriam-Webster online dictionary wrote:

Main Entry: pa·tri·ot·ism 
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ə-ˌti-zəm, chiefly British ˈpa-\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country
now, of course everyone has his/her own very personal definition of what patriotism is. Thus, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that one may burn the flag out of patriotism.
One could argue for example, that by burning the most loved and respected symbol for the nation, one celebrates the right of free speech that is among its core values. Although I must admit that's quite a stretch, even for a liberal like me..
2008-04-15 05:02:53
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6757|Oregon

lowing wrote:

I do not decide what patriotism is, the dictionary does that. and clearly burning a countries flag, does not show respect, or love for that country.
"Patriotism" has a far stronger connotative definition than its denotative one.

I defy you to stand by your words and quote ANYTHING I have said that says I am pushing for fascism. The only rule is, unfortunately for you, is you must keep the quote in context.
I was mocking your political beliefs and how disgustingly nationalistic and bigoted they are.
Maybe you're not a "fascist," per-se, but you are unequivocally opposed to an entire religion's existence, alarmingly fearful of liberal social values, and absurdly caustic in your discussion of these matters.

 

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